Sambucus nigra 'Black Lace'

How about this? It looks so beautiful in Wayside...how big does it get and is it worth buying?

It's slow-growing but appears as exceptional! Called the "hardy" alternative to Purple Japanese Maples.

I recently learned of this cultivar and did somereading about it a while back.

I don't think you could go wrong!

Another interesting selection that's not all to familiar is Fagus sylvatica 'Anosorgorei'... (European Beech 'Anosorgorei'). This is a great one too.

Dax

I have alot of mature fagus grandiflora..would not want and don't have room for anything nearly that big. Is this Sambucus going to be big? If so I'd better pass. Could it be kept small?

I would like to hear what people think also. I have heard mixed results on Black Lace and Sutherland's Gold that I would like to get. I heard for cooler zones they die back a lot and will not get huge.

I am wondering if you could just cut it back every fall or something like that and keep it rather small. It is so beautiful...(from the picture) I am thinking about it mixed with perennials..but maybe that would not work. I wouldn't want it to get more than 6 feet tall and wide. .. even that is a little big.

Levil, Thanks to Equil, I now know that this shrub, which the Plant Files says gets to be only 5' high, flowers only on old wood... so if you cut to ground in fall or it dies back in a lesser zone you lose the flowers and subsequent fruit. Left then with a interesting dark color leafy shrub: which is not a bad thing either. Sounds as if you would accept max height of 5' though.

Thanks..I'm ordering one.

I wouldn't be so sure about blooming only on old wood. It is common for Sambucus nigra to produce flowers in both last year's and same year buds. My S. nigra 'Laciniata' does regularly.

Black Lace may not be as vigorous, and therefore tend not to bloom on new wood, but don't rule it out. I'll bet if it were cut back severely, it would always bloom the same year on the vigorous canes that would ensue. Googling does turn up reports of both old and new wood flower buds.

Rick

Thanks...even better.

I love those. In addition to having a beautiful plant you will be feeding wildlife. And I understand that they are better at staying in one spot and not spreading like other elderberries can do. I planted one three years ago and found out the hard way that I planted it in a spot that it didn't like. I have an Adams and a Johns elderberry planted along my backyard property line and planted this one if front of them.. It never took off and kind of dwindled away. I did some more reading on what it likes and it does the best in semi shade and likes a loose moist soil. I had it planted in hot sun and in ammended clay. If I planted another one I would pick a spot that isn't so dry and is more sheltered from sun. I hope yours does well and you share pictures! I might try it again (when I get my daylily garden under control lol)

This message was edited Mar 27, 2006 6:22 PM

Oops Ken. I wrote that Elderberry (Sambucus canadensis) bloomed on old wood. I don't know about S. nigra and I don't know about S. nigra 'Laciniata' or 'Black Lace'. I suspect that if a healthy and well established S. canadensis was whacked back severely that it just might actually bloom on new wood as Rick stated. Plants can do some strange things.

Well now I have to find the perfect place............this has been most helpful

Whatcha gonna buy levilyla?

Black Lace is cheaper at White Flower Farms - same 1 gallon size. They offer a break if you buy three as well. Both they and Wayside have lousy ratings on Garden Watchdog, but I have ordered from them once or twice and had no problems. Wayside experience is so-so. Normally, I would not order from them but might if they had a unique plant that I wanted.

Victor

I agree...I usually find the plant I want looking at their catalogue and get it somewhere else. I find them expensive but I will look around and see if it is possible to find one so I won't have to go mail order. However, I find that most unusual things have to be mail order. I have never had any experience with Sambucus..none of them.

Equil--"I wrote that Elderberry (Sambucus canadensis) bloomed on old wood."

Not so. You can whack them back with abandon and they will bloom. I think you could nuke them and they would still bloom.

From Possibility Place(just to make it more official) "If the plant gets too large for an area, it may be cut to the ground in March and still flower the same year."

I figured if you whacked em back that they would bloom as a means by which to ensure their survival by fruiting. My "unwhacked" S. canadensis blooms on old wood. Are mine depriving me of a proliferation of blooms? I did a search and found countless sources out there claiming it blooms on old wood and new wood.

Check out the garden watchdog before you buy from either of the mail order nurseries mentioned in this thread...
Mike

And check your local nurseries first. That's where I bought mine three years ago and I live out in the reletive boonies as far as new things go. Then you can see them and pick out the one you want.

My Sambucus nigra 'Laciniata' blooms on old and new wood every year without any cutting back. But since Blace Lace seems to be less vigorous, it may not, and might require cutting back hard to bloom on new wood. Sorry I was not clear about this before.

I've noticed that most of the posters who have the Sambucus nigra are in cooler zones. Levilya, I have been told that the S. nigra does not like our heat and humidity here on the east coast. If you try it please post and let us know how it does for you.

Shari

Hmmmm~~~maybe that's why they say "Plants are dead hardy through all of Zone 5 and into 4 they provide a welcome alternative to Jap. Maples where exquisite foiage is needed but HARSH temperatures prevail." I still plan to order it and I wil keep you informed. Still have not found ti locally. Nancy

I just googled it and it said it holds its' color well even in the heat of the south.

LayItOnThickerAndDeeper:

I have a especially nice species for you, after you invest in the Sambucus. It's the Norfolk island pine that folks in Virginia named because it does so well in the mid-Atlantic region and Chesapeake Bay area. It's evergreen, grows outside, can be moved in containers or really any size you want at any time of year. It can even be a Christmas tree! It has no pests; no particular maintenance requirements; can be kept at whatever size you need it to be (from dwarf almost bonsai and groundcover to forest canopy tree); there are clones in designer colors (including variegated) to compare/contrast with all landscapes; and for those with really difficult sites, it doesn't even need soil (epiphyte-like) for the duration of the initial 10 year guarantee period. And the flowers! Full season display, despite heat of Havre de Grace summer and deathly cold of Presque Isle winter, this answers all floral needs. Cut in vases or arranged in wreaths, you can ship them 'round the globe. Comes true from seed (for winter sowers).

I am apparently the sole distributor of this solve-every-problem plant. I don't know why everyone hasn't heard and bought at least one. Here's a few that are on sale to the first ten callers:

Auraucaria hornswoggliana Fly Buy Knight™
Auraucaria chameleonoides Charlatan's Chamois™
Auraucaria deceptifolius Balled Phase Lyre™
Auraucaria x serpentilobium Snake Oil™

Did I mention 'Over The Top' and 'Heavens To Hyperbole'?

Now that I've ground that pencil to the nub.......

Chamthy/Shari has nailed a point that I have tried to insinuate in more than a few of my ramblings. Understand the species you are interested in. Note where commentary, experience, and salesmanship are originating, and apply judiciously to your own conditions. Finally, invest only in what you can afford to lose, then tell everyone about it so that we aren't all always re-inventing the wheel unnecessarily.

Sambucus nigra originates in Europe, in some of the cooler moister cloudier milder regions. That's where I'd expect it would do well in North America, where those situations are replicated. I don't mean to discourage anyone from buying or planting anything they want anywhere, but if one is insistent on separation from scrutiny and deliberation in plant selection, please consider sending me your discretionary dollars for:

Auraucaria aureo-argentatus Soon Parted™

John, that was one of your all-time best ramblings. I especially like that final fool-and-his-money one! Are you experiencing drug-induced hallucinations? Does the muse strike thusly during full moon when one of your cats turns all black and has fire in his eyes? Or have you been sucking up Captain Morgan again?

Guy S.

Guy, He finally opened the wine! He may have found some cheese curds of his own, to go along with the bacon rind and moon pies. And still no invite, at least, up here north of the frozen tundra. Ken

Glad I could inspire a rambling! Excellent job VV. I read about gardening as much or more than I actually spend time doing it. Researching how a plant I want will do here is one of my favorite things to do. I am very aware of the fact that all zone 7's are not created equal. Beautiful photos of gardens in the Pacific Northwest are everywhere so we naturally want all those georgeous plants but many of them would look like c**p here in NC .

Well, I just got an email from WFF saying that due to "high customer demand" and it being late coming from their supplier they are currently out of stock. They said they will ship it as soon as they "have it in hand" which they expect to be about _________? Maybe this is s good thing Smarty Pants...Oh and btw...when they DO arrive...should I plant them in sun or shade? Or morning sun and afternoon shade like everything else.

Yes.

I think that the cooler and moister condition is going to suit your wish best. More sun will beget better flowering, but increase heat stress.

If you could ice down the soil when the temp wants to run 80-90ºF, and provide some dehumidification from June - September, that ought to about do it.

LOL Maybe I could invest in a tiny outside airconditioner just for this and then I could have some Meconopsis growing around it.

Here it is with Cupid..I sure hope it gets a little bigger than this....

oh Cupid you look so handsome!

Wowzer! I missed this the first time, that was an awesome rant VV. Clap, clap, clap.

By the by, was that elderberry wine you wus sippin'?

Old Stump:

What a great cat! Now I know I have to come visit. S/he is the spitting twin to our Pokey (née Pocahontas, in Germany, by MIL, who didn't understand his persuasion) and dubbed Pinus rigida when inherited by us and brought back to the US.

I'd lose the Sambucus and plant Nepeta.

NC-17:

Well, I'm surprised LL still speaks to me after that sarcastic salvo, but maybe she just feels sorry for me.

I do have some elderberry wine, of Kansas origin (which I even posted a photo of some time ago), but I'm letting it age. The K-man from frozen points north doesn't get this concept, but maybe someday I'll get it through to him. I'm sure he didn't reach his advanced age, er, state of sagacity by submitting to immediate gratification every time desire struck.

That was 9:00 on a Thursday morning, so it must have been the third cup of German coffee firing on all cylinders.

I will always speak to you Darlin.....you are still the smartest.

This message was edited May 2, 2006 7:53 AM

My first bloom..I still love this.

kandlemidd- Please send me some cheese curd. They don't have it here. :) LOL

This message was edited Jun 14, 2006 12:42 PM

ironic... I've wanted a S. 'Black Lace' for about 3 years since I first read about it's inception (conception?) in some magazine. I finally saw one at a nursery last weekend. It was in a big 3 gallon, looking healthy, reasonably priced, but it was just soooooo black, I was chicken. I decided I needed to carefully figure out where to put it first so that it would really work.

What companions do you think would complement it nicely?

and ideal culture? I lost 'Black Beauty' a few years back. I think it was too dry.

I guess the best way to plant it is in front of something yellow or grey...I just seem to "stick" things in anywhere and then if they don't look good I move them somewhere else (that usually doesn't look good either LOL)...If you read above what Smarty Pants said..I think it may not do well here because of the humidity and heat .. should do better for you. He always has to put a damper on everything.

levilyla, I'm envious of the blooms on your 'Black Lace'! None here yet.

plantaholic2, you must have read the same magazine I did - 3 yrs ago - I think it was Rare Plants Magazine? Been waiting for this plant ever since. We picked one up in January at a trade show and planted it out in April - looking absolutely gorgeous right now but waiting for the heat and humidity to see how it holds up. We planted 'Black Beauty' several years ago but it failed to WOW me, losing its black foliage by mid summer and overall a disappointment. I have a couple more though that I'm thinking of trying in a cooler spot next to the wood's edge and see how they perform there, so not giving up on it completely.

Leftwood, any pictures of your S. nigra 'Laciniata' to show us? I have a small specimen of this to plant also and would love to see yours.

Debbie