Ornamental pear question

Now that everybody is looking, I was JUST curious about a type of ornamental pear that supposedly has better crotch angles which might make a better tree, but I have no idea about its invasive potential. I wasn't going to plant this, but was just curious about people's thoughts of this tree.

Pyrus fauriei Korean Sun

Nuts! I promised myself I would not be lured into this subject again after finally losing my patience with a couple of frustrating people on that other pear thread. So my only comment is that most of the newer callery pear cultivars, as well as the species P. fauriei and P. ussuriensis, have stronger form than (oh, can I say it withour puking?) 'Bradford'. Take a look over at the Morton Arb and see how they're doing there.

FWIW, I do have P. ussuriensis here, planted decades ago, and it's not reproducing. That's not to say that it, or any other pear, will not be invasive in your area.

Guy S.

I knew people couldn't resist. Do their flowers smell bad?

Evidently you've done a search of the threads and know there are concerns expressed regarding ornamental pears and their ability to hybridize otherwise you wouldn't have started a thread out the way you did so I'll just say lovely tree, lovely tree, plant several of them of them and study those crotch angles because that cultivar will certainly grow fast enough for you to do so. Why not plant both P. fauriei as well as P. ussuriensis cultivars as I guess they are going to be the new rage and I suspect we'll see quite a few hitting the market to fill that "niche" that will be left now that some people are getting wise to P. calleryana. The flowers of P. fauriei are said to smell simply mahvelous and divine which should be even more incentive to buy a few to plant.

I didn't bother doing a search. If I have learned one thing in the last year or so, from Garden Web and now Dave's Garden, is that I shouldn't plant a Bradford cultivar. I also noticed in the fall of 04 alot of pears in full fall color got snapped when a early snow storm hit us.

Equil, are you serious about planting one? I don't have anywhere to add one in my yard but I can spec them out at work.

Many pears fell apart in Springfield last week from the tornado. The others are falling apart today from the blizzard. Nice firewood.

And NO, she's not serious! She's being sarcastic because she figures you already found all of this background and are merely pulling our chain. Someone on that other thread had tried to cite recommendations in a garden-radio talk show host's book, written several years ago, as evidence that these things are desirable trees and not invasive. I finally lost patience, expressed my doubts that anyone who would spew such nonsense had any woody plant knowledge, that he probably was just a talking head who grew tomatoes, and other such stuff I shouldn't have said. Later I tried twice to contact the radio gentleman to apologize for my short fuse and ask him to confirm or correct the advice attributed to him. But he never replied, so perhaps he really is mostly a tomato man after all.

Anyway, you're opening up a can or worms that has been eaten and upchucked before. Be a progressive leader -- do not spec planting any of the ornamental pears in your city. It's a trend that needs to be stopped, and you are in a good position to help do that.

Guy S.

First off, I'm not so sure that the Korean Callery Pear is a separate species. I realize there are authorities out there on both sides of the debate so I guess I'll continue to refer to it as Pyrus calleryana 'Fauriei'. I suppose it doesn't much matter as Pyrus calleryana 'Fauriei'/P. calleryana var. fauriei/Pyrus fauriei or what ever one wants to refer to it as is more than capable of hybridizing with the others. Regarding the Ussurian Pear (Pyrus ussuriensis), if I am not mistaken that is also capable of hybridizing with all the others and the Ussurian Pear is cold hardy to zone 3 and is documented as growing in zone 2 unscathed. Something about the existence of all these cultivars leaves me with the distinct impression we may very well end up with groves of drought tolerant, fire blight resistant, thorny, cold hardy to zone 2 ornamental pears cropping up from coast to coast that set a tremendous amount of fruit that will stick to the trees in a mummified state throughout winter. Perhaps it's just me.

There is no such thing as a Bradford Cultivar. 'Bradford' is a registered Pyrus cultivar just like ‘Jaczam’ (Jack™), ‘Jilzam’ (Jill™), 'Cleveland Select', 'Redspire', 'Aristocrat', ‘Holmford’, 'Frontier', 'Gladiator', 'Autumn Blaze', 'Capital', 'Fauriei', 'Whitehouse', f. graciliflora , Metropolitan®, Cleveland Pride®, 'Chanticleer, 'Dancer', 'Paradise', 'Princess', 'Pzazz', 'Rancho', 'Stonehill', 'Stone Hill', 'Trinity', ‘Earlyred’, ‘Glen’s Form’, Valiant®, Burgundy Snow®, 'Orchard Park', and New Bradford®. I have no doubt I missed at least 20 more that were registered or patented.

I was going to joke around with you and tell you to by all means make space at home and squish a fauriei in to your landscape design and spec them out for work and line the streets of Lombard with them but Guy blew my cover.

I'm sure these Korean Callery Pears will increase in popularity because a massive marketing campaign is probably underway right now to create demand by billing these out as new and improved ornamental pears. I’d have to agree with Guy, consider being a “progressive leader” and please consider a more appropriate tree for your city. One last thing, I was also joking about the blooms smelling “simply mahvelous and divine”. I’ve read of people describing their smell as being somewhat similar to rotting shellfish while others described the smell of the blossoms as being sickening sweet like a dog puke/jasmine combo.
Lauren

Man, I had a nice long witty response typed and my computer crashed. Equil's post peaked my interest enough to ask the question. I want to like pears so bad for their fall color, but have read & seen enough bad stuff to not plant one. I have seen them listed as a separate species and the only other info I saw listed only positive aspects, and I wanted the truth, so I asked. Don't worry I am not an uninformed Village forester for Lombard, just an uninformed engineer for Oak Park living in Lombard. I'll just keep spec'n out Russian Olives.

Oh dear me, try an Autumn Olive instead because those Russian Olives are passé these days. Better yet, how about a Norway Maple or a Sawtooth Oak. Oh oh oh! A Silk Tree or a Tree of Heaven and you can use Glossy Buckthorn, Japanese Honeysuckle, and Burning Bushes as understory species. Throw in some nice Dame's Rocket, Forget Me nots, Baby's Breath, and Queen Anne's Lace for good measure and don't be forgetting any Garlic Mustard, Butterfly Bushes, or Purple Loosestrife. Reed Canary Grass will be a must but there's this other really neat ornamental grass out there called Miscanthus that is to die for and you could really round off your compliment by adding some nice English Ivy, Creeping Charlie, and Chinese Wisteria. There ya go! Spec those out ;)

On a serious note, I feel for ya when you say you typed a nice long witty response and then lost it. I hate that when that happens.

I don't know if you are in a position to take a drive up north some weekend this summer but if you are, pack up the wife and the baby and take a drive out by me. There is an area in Independence Grove that is kid friendly that I'd like to show you that might help you with a few ideas and I can think of a few other areas of interest if you like Independence Grove.

willis_mckenna:

I would think an historic community like Oak Park (for non-Chicagoan or non-ILians, a community where Frank Lloyd Wright hung out for a while, and did a little work) would have additional professional design staff that complement your engineering talents.

How's that for blowing smoke up your slide rule?

Seriously, FLW and his comtemporaries like Aldo Leopold and Jens Jensen (and Frederick Law Olmsted before them; remember Riverside?) would be rolling over in their compost heaps to think Oak Park and such places would be overrun with such impostors in the arboreal world as the Pyrus gang. True, each designer of their time tried new things as discoveries were made, but also true was the rigorous evaluation made of new things (whether techniques or materials) and those that failed or were misapplied were rejected (rather than today where immediate gratification in plantings seems to rule the day).

As you might look askance at an architect, landscape architect, or horticulturist stepping into the realm of the engineer without proper credentials, there are those who believe that there needs to be more thorough scrutiny of applications of plants into the permanent landscape (especially the public realm, where tax dollars are scant and maintenance dollars scantier). I am not ascribing malicious intent or motive on your part. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, and there are already these planning/design/review processes in place and you are simply implementing, but it doesn't sound like it. AND, it is too often the case in other municipalities that civil engineers propose and implement living landscapes (beyond their professional training in important though inanimate forms and structures).

Now, the ASCE is going to be knocking on my door.

This treatise is not meant as a slam on civil engineers. It is my experience and recognition of reality, and reflects my appreciation that willis_mckenna is actually asking questions about plants rather than blindly applying what is seen repeatedly around the neighborhood. The only way that standards and practices change is by recognizing where there can be improvement; pointing them out; and then pressing for the changes/improvements and carrying them out.

It may merit another thread; it may bore this audience to tears; but I believe that there are too few local governments investing properly in their urban forest canopies, which is the aggregate (got that civil term in there!) of street trees, parks and open space landscapes, forests, and private property trees. By proper investment I mean employment of those skilled trained professionals to inventory, analyze, design, implement, and maintain those permanent plants that support the quality of living environment that humans crave. This includes but is not limited to engineers, architects, landscape architects, horticulturists, arborists, and landscape managers. These folks need to work collaboratively to overcome the impediments to plant growth created over time by human development of cities. This, as opposed to simply planting more Pyrus, Rhamnus, Lonicera (fill in your it-won't-die-so-it's-all-I'll-plant-exotic), is what is going to create and perpetuate those livable landscapes that we will deed to posterity.

I was asked to post a thought that I have made in the past, to provide an example to those who don't quite want to step away from tried-and-true plants that have been demonstrated to be damaging over the long term.

A comparison:

In the last century, a fine product was used extensively in the environment that we all inhabit. It performed its task admirably, and it had a long lifetime and persistence in the environment. It was discovered to have persistence in the human body as well, and quite an adverse effect on children and their development. Once recognized, a deliberate and diligent process was engaged to stop its use and eliminate it and its effect from the human environment every time it was found. That process continues to this day and I expect will continue for decades to come.

I'm talking about lead-based paint. I'm comparing it to the use of known/potential invasive exotic plants. I unequivocally state that it is irresponsible and harmful to continue to practice this behavior, both economically and environmentally.

There are simply too many good native plants (and known non-invasive introduced species that are just not being tried or used often) to continue down the above-mentioned path. Let's each do our small part to start steering this ship away from the shoals.

Wonderful analogy V V.

Lead paint was by far superior to all others. To date, no product is capable of performing like lead paint did to the best of my knowledge. Lead based paint abatement will be continuing for many years as will invasive species control, management, and eradication. There are many options out there for reducing the hazards. Serious public health issues exist that should not be ignored.

Vib, I am not spec'n anything out and the olive was just a joke since I got tricked by Equil into actually considering a Pyrus fauriei Korean Sun. What I was trying to say in the reply to her is that since I don't have anywhere to plant one at home, the only other place is at work where I can spec them out on construction jobs. She tricked me and got me in trouble now, and is trying to do it again.

I won't be defending engineers here, as there are tons I disagree with and never really considered myself to have the typical engineer's mentality. I tend to look up and to the horizon rather than down at the pavement. I never really hung around with anybody from my engineering classes or many other engineers (with a couple of exceptions of course). I completely agree with you that there needs to be more input from arborists, horticulturists, landscape architects, etc on plantings in public spaces. I was just at an IDOT construction meeting yesterday where the only plantings spec’d out were 26 dwarf burning bushes in an area that could have a great landscape plan with a lot more interest and diversity or natives, etc.

As far as Oak Park goes, we have a great Villager Forester here who keeps abreast of the latest info. We use landscape architects and arborists all the time and consult with them and the forestry department for plantings on construction sites, parkway trees, etc. We have been working towards that goal of the urban forest canopy and already have the tree database inventory and are working toward crossing that line towards the private property side of trees. I don’t know if our inventory contains these private property trees though. I will have to ask. We already do stuff for private trees in regards to DED and I am sure we will when the EAB gets here. Not too much I can knock our forestry dept for except they should probably take more trees down, but that is entirely due to politics here.

Frank Lloyd Wright, Leopold, and the other architects would be rolling over in their grave at a lot of other things than the plantings here at least. The lack of quality new architecture is revolting. The only good thing is that the McMansions haven’t really hit here yet and in Riverside it seems like the new homes are at least built with some character.

As far as the lead paint reference, I have a simple 1923 bungalow with lead paint, buried under aluminum siding. Two things I wish were never put on that house. That I will probably have to deal with this year or next.

What can one do if they have several of these already in their yard? How can you cut them down w/o leaving ugly stumps everywhere? Just wait and let nature[ read winds/ice] take their toll on the trees?

Now, I'm serious here and not trying to yank anyone's chain or play games.

Equil, thanks for the invite. I will run it by the wife and send ya a dmail. What is the abbreivation for dear wife? For a long time I thought DH stood for Da Husband. That is still how I read it since it usually adds some humor to posts. As far as paint goes, I just painted my new garage last fall with a Sherman Williams paint that has a lifetime guarentee on it against fading, chipping, etc. We shall see how that pans out.

What do you want to get rid of specifically berrygirl?

DH = Darling Wife just as DH = Darling Husband

I like the paint choice on your garage. The status quo white, tan, and light gray like what I have gets old after a while.

I knew your Russian Olive comment was just a joke so I responded in kind ;)

Equil,
I was talking about Bradford pear trees- LOL!

Depends on how big they are. You can very easily hand pull all the little seedlings. I used a weed wrench light model for most of the ones I had because they were newer plantings.
http://www.canonbal.org/weed.html

Anything established should be girdled or taken down with a chainsaw. Cut it down to about 12" and paint the stump with Triclopyr or Glysophate. Glyphosate should work real well at this time of year when the plant is beginning to flower. As you are aware, Pyrus calleryana leafs out earlier than and hangs on to its foliage longer than native species. Now is a great time to treat it as the native species probably haven't resumed growth yet so an herbicide will have little or no effect on them if you spill your chemical. After I paint a stump, I toss a ziplock baggie over it or wrap Reynolds Wrap around it so my chipmunks and birds don't get in the chemical. Other than that, watch the stump and if it doesn't resprout, cut it down to ground level this coming fall.

I guess I was still wrong about the DH or DW. I am sticking with Da Husband/Wife, less mushy.

We are very happy with our color choice for the garage. We plan on painting the house these colors this year and thought the garage would be a perfect test. The neighbors commented that they like the green trim, but didn't say anything about the yellow color. They are more of the status quo type people. They will get used to it and I am sure see it as an improvement of the previous colors and garage (we bought a fixer upper).

Any change on the IDOT job would have to be after the fact, as it is too late in the game to make those kinds of changes. We can more easily just omit the plantings from the contract and do that work ourselves as a village. At that point, yes, I can spec out plant material. I will run it by the forester and my boss to see what they think. I will add the Pizzo guy to my list of contact for that sort of stuff. We don't have too many larger scale plantings here but one potential exists in a possible project that involves putting a cap on the Eisenhower Expressway and having it be mostly green space. That would be a very good opportunity for the creation of a more natural area. I'll give his info to the appropriate people here.

Hey Willis -- nice bike! Who's the cute chick in the back? Do you work with the IDOT landscape architect for your district?

Gosh Darn, I always thought DH meant Dumb Husband or Dang Husband. Maybe the women who have been using that phrase are not as witchy as I believed! Everyone is getting confused on this thread. No one knows who's joking and who's not, so please nobody take offense and let any such misunderstandings come to the infliction of wrath!

Berry, the callery pears are being noticed especially in the Southeast as being invasive. Given your location down there, you probably would be doing the responsible thing by removing yours, even if you decide to phase them out while establishing some better trees. You also would be keeping them from growing larger and becoming more of a problem when they do break apart.

Guy S. (DG!)

Berrygirl, I can warn you that pears will sucker profusely after being cut down. I have seen some suckers coming up 15ft away from the original stump. And that is after the stump has been grinded. A lawn mower is the only good tool for that. LOL

The cute chick is the same one from the Conifers? What are you growing part II thread at Rich's Foxwillow Pines. The one where you said you prefer frogs (I will have to look up how to quote people now).

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/580953/

I have also snuck her into the camping/hiking/boating forum here:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/583118/

That work was done by a consultant whom I won't name. We don't typically work with an IDOT landscape architect as there is virtually no green space along IDOT right of ways in town with the exception of the Eisenhower expressway which they are planning on widening and won't be doing any new landscaping until that point. When it comes to that I'll stick my head in.

Don't worry, you can always assume I am joking, and give most comments the benefit of the doubt if they are a joke or not. Here she is again admiring the Burning Bush at Andersen Gardens.

Here is a "Bradford" that fell apart and was stumped about five or six years ago. You can see it resprouted and has grown on to become a rather decent multi-stemmed tree. Still a "Bradford," mind you, with all the infamy implied.

Scott

Okay. New computer here with all sorts of difficulty getting old files/formats into new ones. I will either find a way to transfer that picture or take a new one, because it is rather telling and amusing.

scott

I think I'll name my first boy Bradford, Brad for short. Bad crotch angles run in the family.

This message was edited Mar 22, 2006 7:52 PM

Multi-stemmed pear.

scott

broader view.

Scott

So what I see now, instead of a weak tree, is a multistem weak tree which just compounds the problem. The older the tree gets the worse the situation becomes. My young multi stem birches can bend under the weight of snow or wind but do not break and get stronger into maturity rather than weaker. While I agree these pictures are pleasing, don't these trees look a little top heavy to you and indicative of coming disaster. Also, because the weakness is inherrent I doubt that you can prune your way out of the problem. Ken

This message was edited Mar 23, 2006 9:24 AM

Yeah, I don't know what will happen. It'll be curious to see if this situation makes the tree stronger or weaker. Stay tuned, the tree is less than a mile away, so I'll keep photographing it.

Scott

Thanks all for the info and advice about the pears.
I was just totally in the dark about them when we planted them several yrs ago. EVERY- and I mean every- yard has them around here.

Now to convince DH to cut them down- LOL!

Speaking of nasty trees to take down, here is a pic of the Norway Maple carcass I created yesterday. If you look really closely, you can see the fence that keeps out the invasive hooved rats. I have an American Beech ready to plant in place of the Norway Maple, and a number of Viburnums, of course.

Equil feel free to pick up a tree if my next kid is a boy. We will have to see what tree sign he/she is born under. Many of the trees I planted were for holidays or commemorate something. I planted a Japanese Maple for our daughter's baptism which was part of a compromise. It is now know as the baptism maple. Then there is the mother's day maple, a Bloodgood, which was bought and planted in honor of DW’s first mother's day. If my wife wants something for sweetest day, she better get that shovel ready cause she'll be getting a sweetest day Chamaecyparis Nootkatensis 'Green Arrow'. Actually it is much easier to say sweetest day tree than that hum-dinger. How do you pronounce Nootkatensis anyways? It is kind of a running joke here since DW would rather me spend money on other things.

It's worse than you thought -- the new name is Xanthocyparis nootkatensis!

Plant an oak!

And make your next kid a frog . . .
;-)

Guy S.

So do you say that like Zantho-cyparis Noot-cat-en-sis? I saw that is was being moved to Zanthocyparis. I just have it on my list as the Chamaecyparis cause that is what most catalogs still show it as.

If I had room for an oak, I would plant one, but no room. Maybe when the green ash in my parkway gets the EAB in 10 years I'll ask for an oak. I'll bring up the frog idea with DW, but she might not want to take part in that unholy union.

Bill

Plant Quercus prinoides, or Q. ilicifolia, or Q. georgiana -- you have room for those!

Frog Prince

I might be able to squeeze in a Quercus Prinoides when I plant an area that is currently a bunch of dead or near dead poplars of my neighbors. When those finish falling down I can landscape that area and can probably make room for one oak. Hey, I can spec out some oaks at work, right?

Be carefull when you spec oaks. There seems to be a firesale on Sawtooth (Quercus acutissima) lately ;) I guess I'd also caution you against Q. imbricaria but Guy can explain more about that.

For what it's worth, I've been "companion" planting. Every Ash I have here will be toast, it's only a matter of time. I've been selecting different trees and planting them very close to existing Ash in an attempt to get them established before the inevitable happens. Just a thought. I've got some rather nice Ash here and they are mature. It will be a sad day when the EAB gets here but come it will and I truly don't think it will take 10 years given it is documented as having made its way to our fair State as of last summer just south of Chicago.

William, William, William...I grew up in Lombard. Right by Westmore and Maple.

Just north of the Illinois Cleaners in one of those little duplexes. I planted most of the trees in the front yards when I was a kid.

Straight west from the intersection on Maple, about a block down on the North side of the street is a park. It used to be a big field, with woods, and a spring and pond. The field was a prairie remnant, I realise that now. It was almost my back yard. I grew up catching grass snakes and making forts out of Big Bluestem. They were going to turn that property into a housing development, but we in the neighborhood "saved" it.

When they developed the park, they dug a huge trench in the middle of the prairie...and scraped everything off the land into the pit. Buh Bye prairie remnant.

Sorry got off topic. I only have room for shrubs. :-(

Well I guess that's one small step up from a parking lot.