Dung, Doo Doo, and Dirt

This is a continuation of "the key is in the dung"
.I am looking for someone who is knowlegable in Daikon (sp) Radish growing. Anybody out there?
Kenton I am going to do the garden with pine sawdust rather than cedar. We have both here. I doubt that cedar uses much nitrogen because it breaks down so slow. Also do you think it will transfer taste to the plants?

This message was edited Mar 17, 2006 2:40 PM

This message was edited Mar 17, 2006 2:43 PM

soferdig, is it true your raised beds are 3 feet deep?!

My vegetable garden is I use it for a storage of soil that I am constantly making for the next bed so the center is kind of high for the last few years until I get all my beds done. You would be surprised how much compost is in 1 1/2 acres of raised beds and 1 1/2 additional acres of grass meadows and ponderosa pine. Most of my beds vary from 12" to 24". You can see them here. http://davesgarden.com/journal/d/m/Soferdig/

This message was edited Mar 20, 2006 1:55 AM

What is your favorite combination of soils when mixing garden soil? I use about 20% clay (local soil from base of bed) then add 30% sandy loam, 5% peatmoss, 15% pine needles (sticks etc),20% manure or more depending, And last about 10% compost. This is my general mix and when I do Acidic soil for my Seattle beds I use only clay 25%, 10 % peat, 25% pine needles, leaves, pine cones, chipped up, 10 % manure, and 30% compost. Are Kenton and I the only ones using raised beds? What do you use to make soil at your house?

I have been wondering about doing a raised bed Steve.I think i will do a raised bed for my berries ,since they need a different soil and it would be easier , What are the pros for the raised beds? vs straight in the soil ? IYO. besides the obviuos. LOL:) i am assuming drainage being one of them?
MY DH and i are in diferences with the comopost issue at our house, HE is MR. Agronomy from Ohio state ( yes steve the ghetto LOL:)) . I am MS organic hippie from California,
so our differences is , he thinks you can't concieve a proper balance with compost and organic material because you don't know how much you are giving your soil, i say you can, it just takes work. Hahahaha. except when you have a tumbler, LOL :)
How do you know? soil test ? Kenton i remember talking with you on this at one time, do either of you get soil test or do you just go by your green thumb?
Steve you sound like you have a lot of area to cover !!yikes
sue

Positives on raised bed. 1 drainage excellent 2 warms up quicker 3 can intigrate soils 4 Develope what ever soil type you want 5 Place irrigation simply. 6 they look great. (i don't use wood). 7 Allows variety of plants unknown in natural soils.
Now the problem. Your husband and I both hate Michigan but I disagree in the fact that you need to measure soil qualities. I think that anything that has been a plant contains what a plant needs. Therefore don't be an agronomist an measure just plan competing areas. You both will have fun and both learn what works in your soil and what doesn't. My wife and I do the same plant in her areas and my areas and we tease each other about the size difference, and flower production. I am a born in the wool Republican and always insisted that chemicals purchased were superior to compost. I have found the opposite true in my garden. I admit that I haven't even tested anything but PH. But I know by common sense when plants need oxygen, Potassium, Nitrogen, Iron chelates, and Phosphorous. Just look at the green = Nitrogen, Iron flowers= Phosphorous Stalk = potassium. You just have to know what to supplement to improve. Ashes = Potassium , calcium, lime. Ironite = trace minerals, Iron chelate, Compost = Nitrogen, trace minerals, potassium, phosphorous, oxygen, and things science doesn't consider, worms, beetles, bacteria, mold and the mix that makes things happen. The way it has always worked. No I'm still a republican but I have learned from the "Left Coast" when it comes to soil.

I like the thread title.

The results just seem to bust up our pre-conceived notions, eh Steve? I used to swear by peat, but the soil eats it like thin mints; peat is not "filling." I have not had the greatest experiences with fertilizers, and sprays: healthy plants just don't get bugs like unhealthy ones. Good soil means healthy plants.
The fact is that soil and soil organisms will balance things out naturally if you give them natural things. Amending is like taking forest-litter-decomposition and fast-forwarding it.

I used to think that compost should be pure organic matter, but later discovered with experience that after the hot action has happened, only the bacteria living within dirt (and those wonderful worms) will break it down to that last step. I am pretty big now on putting nearly-done compost strait into my beds to let it finish decomposing in close relationship with the soil.

Tests: I listen to what other folks in my valley find out about their soil when they hand out the dough to have a fancy test done. Running themes in those tests tell me what I will have. (I am so darn cheap!) And they have been interesting: Our soils do not need potassium or phosphorous, in fact they have TOO MUCH! So just think about all of those poor saps who bought "complete" fertilizers for their lawns and all like 12-20-10 and all that tripe. Here, all you need is 20-0-0 for absolutely anything!

There are DIY methods for a few expensive Lab tests. (Cheap, I'm tellin' ya) You can do the "ribbon test" to see how much clay content you have.
You can also do the glass jar/water test to see the composition.
Alkalinity in clay soils: Drop some vinegar on it. If it fizzes, it's alkaline, kids.

I have just grown to be able to sense, too, how the soil is doing. Feel, smell, appearance. Look at the plants growing in it. With as much contact as they have with it, they will tell you how it's doing. I have not done anything that would affect my soil in a crazy way that I think begs to be tested. But if you really want to know the rock-solid facts about your dirt, pay the 10-20 bucks to find out exactly what is going on from a reputable (extension suggested) labratory. If the numbers are Greek to you, D-mail me and I can give you the info. It can save you a bundle. (Think again of all those 10-10-10 bags of fertilizers, bone meal, superphosphate, etc, sold here uselessly!)

Did you know that soil that comes up as little clods is really good? True. It lets Oxygen down to the roots. Roots need air just as much as they need water, no joke. That's why plants drown and why Cypress have knees in the swamps. -And why rototilling finely is really bad. (Contrary to old preconceived notions of mine.) And why chunks of compost are really good, too. (Like wood bits, twigs.)

Ok, raised beds: If the new soil touches the old soil, they and/or their traits will mix. Acid bed will go alkaline. Salts will raise up from the water table. Worms and water will move things around. If you want to have a different pH, you have to make a thick boundary of corse gravel and heavy landscape fabric to keep the water from moving the native chemicals up. Consistent addition of matter will keep a pH, too like Steve's acidic beds. Like liming a garden every fall.

I'm a Mugwump and I talk too much,
K. James

Them of us w/ limestoney clay & therefore alkaline soil must use something other than ashes for potash. I love greensand. I would eat it to prove how much I love it, but I have promise my spouse not to. Any more.

Zeppy i have been curiuos abut green sand , new to me, i m new to gardening also. lol
can you tell me about it, i have heard it is good for tomatos
thansk
sue

I agree with you in alkaline soil but ashes work in the acidic compost bed. I put about 2 gallons in a 3 yrd pile of compost and the Plants never sag when spred at the end of composting. I have seen that the rest of my 11 cords of wood left in my fire place works well on my lawn.

And acid stuffs work four us alkaliners too. It is my understanding that greensand is a structural amendment that, when used in certain clays is excellent, and in other clays, makes contrete. "Call your local extension agent for the facts."

We have to be careful where I am, ( I've done it to supress weeds!) adding wood ash makes too much potassium and adds salt, which is a prevalent and bad thing here.

Steve, I was thinking of you while I was gardeing today; we were the downtrodden saps in that recent unmentionable anti-amendment campaign. So I took some pictures.

Local topsoil that has been naturally built with a few leaves and grass clippings for ten years, never mechanically broken by human hands. It took some beating with a metal trowel to collect this sliver, this is how it falls down:

And this is in my Main garden.
For the amendment here, I moved one foot of soil aside and completely got rid of another foot. I back-filled it with the native stuff and composts/manures/woodchips in equal portions. (It must be noted that the soil was very high in Nitrogen for the first season.)
It cuts like butter and plant roots go much deeper (where it is cooler and they can get water when they need it in the summer).
I started this amendment project in February of 05, and finished in June.

It is said that 11% organic matter is ideal. Our native soil never goes above 1%. This is what 50% looks like! :

K. James

Very nice, turning me on actually...is there such a thing as soil porn?

That's it above, XXX.
Trucker variety is this:

First picture yuck, second picture ahhhhhhhhhhhh, third picture sh...y. my manure i got was piled over 10 years and is like sandy loam in size, but clumps of clay make it heavy, some clay was scooped up with it. But my score was the mushroom compost I get every trip to great falls. The clinic I work at had about 50 yrds of it sitting over 2to 5 years. I bobcatted it all in my truck and trailor over the last 5 years and brought it home topped with a thick layer of layered sandstone. Very poor gas milage over the Rockies but what ammendments! When I get home I'll enclose a close up of the stuff. I am using this as a 50/50 mixture with 20% clay and 80% sandy loam and the top will be layered in with the compost I accumulated last year. I can't wait for the new bed to get started. It shall be my coup de gras of soil ammendment. Only U and I can appreciate it. Did you see my DW comment on production of composted native soil vs my ammended beds. She looked at me funny and said are you serious, nothing grows or survives in the native stuff its all clay. Ahhhh my wife has crossed over to the other side with us.

"Amend! Amend! Amend! Amen"

Isn't it amazing, the whole thing about turning piles of dead junk into black soil and flowers/veg? I am never unastounded at it.

went outside to find a place for my Llama poop, i was curious how my soil was doing , i wanted to touch it and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so rich and futile, compared to he earth i had last spring ( no offense Mother Nature) LOL
so greensand works in some soils but not well in others? Kenton, how do i know which ones which ? use the jar method. Kenton my husband is probly cheaper that you, .LOL i have proof.!! he won't use an atm machine becuase they charge a dollar, hahahaha. he will wear his pants until they fall off!!!! and then he waits for a sale, lets hopea sale comes soon.
Hey you guys want me to have my dad send you a sample of his black gold LOL
I hope to have pic soon to show the LLama gold poop and my soil.
happy gardening
sue

I believe in using only organic material for amendment (personal preference) since you get structure and nutrients from it. I think a little research, or a call to your extension office might be able to tell you.
Enjoy that Llama gold!

Sue your husband and I are similar but for one thing. I wear brand name lables have a winter and a summer wardrobe, this includes silk shirts and Liz claiborne pants. I can accomplish this by buying off the 75% off the last price listed. My last LC pants cost 3.50. Thanks to a university town that has a Bon Marche and students who wouldn't be caught dead in dress clothes. Yes and like him I have only 1 pair of shoes and they are 3 yrs old. LOL
I can't wait till I get to go out and look for my llama poop site! I'm still stuck up here till tues so not to far away.
Kenton you know why I am so focused on soil ammendment? It always comes with fun guy things. I have a gravel pit 1/2 mile from my drive way and I get to walk down and get the loader. 5cu yrds in one scoop, articulated wheels, 30' high, and great stereo! Then I drive it up my road chest puffed out and waving at all of my neighbors shaking their heads in envy. Turning into my garden I place the topsoil (primarily sandy loam with a little clay to color it) in the space to be the next happy garden site. I return chest puffed out back past the same neighbors now gone and get the bobcat and grab one last load of soil to the site. Now the bobcat can move and mix the mushroom compost, soil, clay, in large volumes right on the site. After all of the mixing I beging the dry stack in the shape chosen for the bed. Then I back fill the stack and using primarily poor clumped clay to back fill the rock around the perimeter. Now with a large flat shovel I hand move the last amount tossing what ever is not completly mixed into its proper mix. Lastly I lay on copious amounts of pine needles and compost. and roto till in the mix as deep as possible. Please note no worms in anything but compost. And in less than 2 months the bed is crawling with worms in every hand shovel.
Sorry everyone but I needed to dream of what awaits me at home.
Please note I have 10 neighbors and all of them come up to the garden often during the year to just see what is new and take in the sights. It is good that they feel free to do that.

My DH doesn't even know what a summer vs winter wardrobe is , if you asked him " what is a wardrobe ?" he would probly answer " something to do with Star Trek reruns" ,haahahahaha, i married him for his tracktor , becsause i thought it was sexy, it really turned me on,LOL
Soferdig you and my DH would probly love talking heavy equipment, he love it. He has his eye on a skidsteer as we speak, he says it is to help me wit my garden , but we all know the truth don't we.
How often to rototill Steve i have heard many opinions, i htough to do it one more time before spring planting and work in a bit more compost, then i heard no to much roto, not good, any IYO i can ponder on for a while.
thansk
sue

Sue any one who doesn't rototill new garden plantings and beds has to wait 200 years to get what rototilling does in 15 minutes. I always rototill my veggie garden every spring taking down into the soil all the garden greens, pine needles, and compost at least 1 ft deep. I know I cut up some worms but I know that is what makes them horny because after doing the rototiller my garden is much richer with worms in a very short time. Now to those who don't think it helps that is OK. But I pull weeds for about 1 month in my garden beds and vegetable beds and there is little more. All the crops that started last fall and early spring are now carbon under my soil to feed my worms. My established beds get the deep forking that everyone likes. It drives down the compost and airates the soil.
Ahhhh a skid steer!! what joy can be acomplished with such a mans best friend. Get him a big gravel pit and he can move dirt every day and act out his frustrations. Brrrrrraaaaaaattttuuuuuuunnnnnnn,
Brrraaatttuuuunnnn. And any woman who marries a man for his tractor is a passionate person who is wise and noble.
The surf was up today here on Kodiak. Storms a brewing.

Hey all, Where is our old friend, TeaTeacher?

Sue, overtilling can break down the soil structure, ie, the way if clods together into those nice little aggregates. On an intensely grown plot, annual fall amendment/tilling has shown best results where structure is delicate. Steve gets much the same thing by composting over winter, then mixing. It would not be as good if he did that and tried to plant early veg and cole crops. Spring tilling gets the weeds active and gets it over with. Science stands behind him there.

Steve, Mr. Machisimo. I've a couple words for you, old man: Rock on!
The best deep amending is best done with heavy equipment, unless you have too much patience and a fondness for the chiropractor. (or nearby fences!) I find a nice sharp shovel and a big project are the best way to make frustrations useful, eh?

There is a concern among the amendment-enlightened few in my valley that there are not many (two, maybe) folks who hire out to amend deeply enough. Just imagine all those other "landscapers" who don't amend at all!
K. James

See if you can place one of those "landscaped by Kenton" and next door "Landscaped by Soil minimist". You won't be able to keep up with the demand when they see the results.
Who is tea teacher?
I felt that spring tilling in the veg garden broke up the garden debris that I overwintered on the surface. I don't compost this because some soil critters are feeding on new carbon material. Or am I wrong? It definatly makes my worms happy they are sleeping around all this old corn stalk material. Well and they hug the compost too. But the tilling tears up our grasses and wild flowers that tend to start in april and would bet producing seed by May. Also the material is compacted and firm the rows I till up are light and quick to absorb water. Rather than run off the mound and collect in the row.

Your situation calls for spring tilling, mate. Hands down. You probably have so much organic material in that soil that soils structure (built in part by worms, mind you, who are attracted by new organic matter, too) is probably not an issue. What kind of inorganic base is there? Clay is the one that suffers most from overtillage.

(Demand? I just raised my rate to $20/hr!)
Sleepless in Alaska, Steve?

Teateacher was in on one of our rants in a clay-amendment thread.

Kind of sleepless. I just finished sewing up a Jack Russell that got its neck ripped down to her front legs. Lots of stitching. I always find looking into Jugular grooves facinating. Pulsing carotid artery, throbbing jugular vein, and delicate vagus nerve. Still intact after the bulldog ripped the muscles around it. Another miracle that will go unnoticed. Praise God. This is a wonderful dog that has been attacked by this dog two times before. Tonight was the bulldog's last night. Animal control will have to solve the predators problems. I have to go back and do the morphine in an hour or so.

What a real gent you are. No, better than gent. I'm too tired to call up the right venerable word.
This is so funny:

"Time for the snow to go so I can sow, mow, and grow."
-Soferdig

I go home tuesday for 2 weeks of fun in the sun. Soon to swoon when the bloom begins the tune of the garden.

Thawed in Montana already? Or is this a non-amending sort of fun?

Yes my DW says that I can start collection of rocks in the mountain behind us, it is no longer white. Then I start to prep the new site, lawn in the back yard. It is over my drain field (Not the septic tank) and there is sewer at the bottom of our road. so why not cover it? The best thing is the soil here was developer covered with sandy loam and they put on only 4". Well before I seeded I added another 4" of sandy loam a ton of peat moss and have been fertilizing it once yearly with milorganite and cutting it long with a mulcher blade. I punch the heck out of it every spring with my airator and the soil now is black dirt 10" deep. Oh dear soil ammendment won't work. I keep forgetting.

Oh, shucks. All that work in vain. I hope you can tolerate the gorgeous gardens that will no doubt grow there next year.

Rock hounding sounds so fun now... I need a couple more tons of basalt:

"any one who doesn't rototill new garden plantings and beds has to wait 200 years to get what rototilling does in 15 minutes"

Yeah, in the permafrost. Things break down faster in the south. Including air conditioners.

Regardless, I plan to live to 200 and personally witness the fruits of my labor.

I'm one who doesn't have any luck with the local master gardeners etc at the extension office. They always give me the conventional-gardening solutions, and I'm keeping a basically organic garden. I don't mean that they have to give me only organic solutions, open-pollinated cultivar suggestions, and touchy-feeliness. I just mean a little middle ground would be nice, and maybe some advice that doesn't sound EXACTLY like the advice the master gardener in the next cube gives ("get a bag of 10-10-10"). They also always tell me, without fail, that clay and sand equals concrete when the word greensand comes up. If I had the money to buy enough greensand to make concrete of my clay, I'd be buying that nice 60 acre tract up by the National Forest. Instead.

Ahhhh Methusala where have you been JamesCo and I are having no organic competition here. You have patience I don't. We germans are always in a hurry. Thank God for the diversity in ideas here in DG. I need to find a greensand stratification and have you come out and visit. Welcome to the discussion. What is an air conditioner? LOL
Kenton the basalt looks great! We have large extrusions in Eastern Montana but it is hard to find pieces. The large upheavals painted in Charlie Russell paintings are unchanged today over in Great Falls. I used to get Mt St Helens rocks and landscape with them when I lived in Kelso, Wa. The only problem was when it rained the rocks floated away. I miss the big snow cone. Did you know I met Harry Truman who was buried up there. He rented canoes to us and boy was he a grouch.
My DW make many Sundays with the truck and trailor up to collect.

Ahhhh Methusala where have you been JamesCo and I are having no organic competition here. You have patience I don't. We germans are always in a hurry. Thank God for the diversity in ideas here in DG. I need to find a greensand stratification and have you come out and visit. Welcome to the discussion. What is an air conditioner? LOL
Kenton the basalt looks great! We have large extrusions in Eastern Montana but it is hard to find pieces. The large upheavals painted in Charlie Russell paintings are unchanged today over in Great Falls. I used to get Mt St Helens rocks and landscape with them when I lived in Kelso, Wa. The only problem was when it rained the rocks floated away. I miss the big snow cone. Did you know I met Harry Truman who was buried up there. He rented canoes to us and boy was he a grouch.
My DW make many Sundays with the truck and trailor up to collect rocks.

Pity, Zappy, that they seem so un-trained. They are probably treating you like all the other airheaded homeowners who come through. My training includes IPM, which uses pesticides as a last resort. (Not only because of environment-friendliness, but that it works better anyhow.) They really ought to havew been trained in organic gardening as well. It seems that conventional gardening is a halfway house nowadays anyhow.

I don't know much about and needn't know about greensand, as the compost process is like blessing fallen leaves that are like like manna. I just think that greensand is an inorganic, and therefore only half-useful amendment. You might as well cover all the bases if you're going to amend, eh?
Zippy, do you mean that you only top-dress? I'm too impatient to wait 200 years, let alone one. I want it to look like a national forest before I move on.
K. James
(How's the torn-up dog, Steve?)

Hi to Steve and K.James!I had to go to the local farm supply-hardware store,here on the "prairie",to get some supplies due to the 12 inches of much needed snow that is coming tonight.Yahoo!While there,they were unloading a Peterbuilt-full of Cotton-burr compost.Read the label and it basically says breaks up tight,clay soils,its nutrient value is eight times that of manure,is cost effective in gardens and landscapes,100% natural,improves moisture retention,easy to wet and re-wet,and has been used since the Civil War.Your thoughts and comments,guys!Thanks...Dave

"Briar" is resting well on her morphine buzz. She will go home tonight and sleep the next few days. I know one inorganic that has helped my garden, yard and house plants. Ironite. I bought a pallate of 25# bags at 2.00 per bag. I have used it for 2 applications 2 years ago and my grass stays green all winter. My perenials have gone nuts though some of them are at the 3 yrs age.

does the advertising say anything about a bridge for sale in New York. LOL Anything made of Carbon and nitrogen will help any clay. Watch out for termites! I would lay in down and till or fork it in to the soil.

Hi folks
Hey steve sounds like you and i do abut the same thing, i tilled my garden under and then added compost and straw that was molding in a corner in my yard top dressed with more compost and Llama poop tilled it around October let sit and i will till again maybe in a few wkds to get the top coat under and feeding the worms.
Funny you mentioned stitching up a dog this weekend, I stitched up my son this weekend uuhg , Broc bit him in the face and i mean he really took a chunk out, to much prey drive in Broc, he dosn't have a tolerance for the lower pack members, we think he just dosn't want anyone around me?? i talked with our breeder, sooooo Broc i hope is going to find a new home, i hope some people in KY take him. i turned around for a split second and wham
back to dirt
i remeber when St Helens irrupted wow i lived in Ca at the time,
oh steve you german you, i am german too grew up on potato pancakes
you want rocks steve i got rocks up my gazoo.
no need for a gravel pit for Dh he works with heavy machinery for a living and builds golf coursed so he gets to move dirt and rock al day looong , he does need to see a chiropractor LOL i think he shrunk lol
sue

Ahhh potatoe pancakes with applesauce. My grandma always fried them in lard with paper thin crepes. Rolled up sausages and voila: CARDIAC ARREST.
I till only once a year in the spring so the soil doesn't get too fine. 3 times a year and your asking for compaction and clay. You don't need glaciers in Columbus. Oh wait yes bury the college in an Ice Age. Yeah! Boy did the big 10 blow it in the March Madness!