Conifer ID

Here is a tree along my pond--what be she?

A closer pic

oops--let me try that again

...and the tree itself

I'd go for Pinus resinosa, though it is unusual for it to hold its cones for so long. Otherwise Pinus nigra, but the cone is really a bit too small for that.

Resin

I think P. resinosa. Some of the cones on the resinosa at Van Patten Woods are still clinging. This is one of the Pines I really like. Very attractive.

What pictures can I get you to make a definitive ID vs. the Austrian pine? Is Red Pine doomed to a short life here as well? The Scots and Austrians in the neighborhood are all in various states of decline.

Looks to me as if you have two needles per fascicle so that limits your search of possibilities considerably. I learned something from Resin just recently and that was regarding needle sheaths. If I am not mistaken, the tree you photographed has a needle sheath that is persistent which narrows down your seach again. Other than that, the length of the needles seems consistent with what is out there for this species which is about 4-6" long with the resinosa in our area leaning more toward 6". The pine cones helped tremendously because of their shape and they look to be around 1.5 - 2" long and the shape of the scales seems consistent with those that I have been told are P. resinosa by Tom Smith.

Check the Wisconsin Herbarium to see if there is a way to contact them to forward your photos for a positive ID.
http://www.botany.wisc.edu/herbarium/

All in all, I wouldn't go with my ID because I am just learning about Pines and probably only have familiarity with all of 5. This happens to be a species that I want to buy 5 of to be able to create a windbreak about 100' away from my home so I recently looked up information on it and from my notes I found this website which provided me with a wealth of information but no photos-
http://forestry.about.com/library/silvics/blsilpinres.htm?terms=how+many+glaciers+cover+parts+of+glacier+national+park

A pic of a freshly mature cone (unweathered) would help - P. resinosa has nut-brown cones, P. nigra has yellow-buff cones (the cone in the pic is too old and weathered for its original colour to be visible)

Based only upon what we can see in your pics, it looks more like Pinus nigra than P. resinosa IMHO. Unless it's something else altogether.

The buds and needle position surrounding those buds can be helpful. Pinus resinosa needles often tend to follow along the line of the twig, partially obscuring the buds, while P. nigra needles tend to form a rosette framing the buds. I would also expect a P. resinosa that old to be showing some bark color by now.

Also, try flexing the needles to distinguish between P. nigra and P. resinosa. If they snap, they're one; if they can be bent into a tight knot without snapping, they're the other. But I always forget which is which, so unless someone else can tell you I'll have to go outside tomorrow in daylight and find out again!

Guy S.

Hi Guv,

Hi Res -- yeah, I went out this morning to survey the storm damage (not too bad here) and checked a few of them while I was outside. Resinosa is indeed the snapper and it seems to be reliable on the few of each I tested, although all will snap if bent severely enough. The nigra needles tend not to snap cleanly though. The needle texture is different too -- much coarser on P. nigra.

Guy S.

Hi Guys,

Well, Kevin is in Zone 5. Still, one apparently could make a case for either species, or neither. I suppose we're all guessing until he comes up with something definitive.

Guy S.

Another useful character I've been forgetting about - on fallen cones:

Pinus nigra - whole cone intact

Pinus resinosa - basal scales missing

Resin

The tree still has loads of cones(although with the winds, rains, and hail of the last couple days, it may not), so I bet there are fallen cones beneath. If I only knew what basal scales were.........Mr. Resin sir?

Hi Kevin - look at the stalk end of a fallen cone. if there are scales, getting smaller and smaller, right up to the stalk, then it is highly likely P. nigra. If there are several scales missing there, leaving a 'hole' of sorts, then highly likely P. resinosa.

Resin

Here's a pic -

Left: two Pinus nigra

Right: two Pinus resinosa; the black area in the middle is where the basal scales have come off

Note the earlier-mentioned colour difference too

Resin

Poking around for myself- came up with these images:

http://forestis.rsvs.ulaval.ca/BOIS_HTML_2001_X/%20Labo%20Pinophytes%202%20X/Pinus%20resinosa%20HTML/source/5.html

http://forestis.rsvs.ulaval.ca/BOIS_HTML_2001_X/%20Labo%20Pinophytes%202%20X/Pinus%20resinosa%20HTML/image/pinus_resinosa_1.jpg

http://www.ouellette001.com/flore/Groupes/Spermatophytes/Gymnospermes/images/Pinus_resinosa_FA.jpg

http://www.horticulture.missouri.edu/starbuck/list20/pinus_res.htm

http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Research/Dermatitis/EdMat/PhytoSlides/41to45/images/Red20Pine20Cone.jpg

http://www.iastate.edu/~bot356/species/species/p_tSpecie/PinuResi.html

http://www.drgndrop.com/garden/localPlants/conifers/images/pine3cone.jpg

This is a pretty photo-
http://academic.kellogg.edu/herbrandsonc/bio111/images/kccfieldtrip/bots2844.jpg

I'll try to run over to Van Patten woods to pick up a few cones from the trees I was told were P. resinosa and with all the high winds, chances are pretty good there are branches on the ground.

Hi Quilib - would the ones at Van Patten be wild, or planted? (verified wild-origin Pinus resinosa is on my cone collection 'wants' list!)

On the identification, to emphasise, for the missing basal scales feature, it has to be naturally fallen cones, as shown at the iastate.edu link; if cut off the branch (as shown at the ulaval.ca link), then the basal scales are not missing

The kellogg.edu pic looks like it might be P. nigra

Resin

Resin, do you have any friends in the United States who have an export permit? I am pretty darn sure my property up in the UP has "wild" P. resinosa but I'm going to have to wait to get up there. If it is, I know it has been there because I've had folk from the Dept of Natural Resources over there and they agreeed with me to keep people off the property and away from the Lake because it was pristine. I actually don't want any one around that large pond or very small lake anyway. It's not safe. It's a quaking bog. As far as Van Patten, I can ask the ranger what he knows. I should see him within the next month or so. There is another park that I suspect may have wild P. resinosa and that would be Petrifying Springs up in Wisconsin. Fondly referred to as PETS Park. Not all that far from me and I don't quite know who I would ask over there but the P. resinosa that I thought I saw there would be well over a hundred years old. Just my gut feeling on that. It's so hard to get in there and move around because they let the understory go and it's loaded with the classic ickies. Maybe I'll go there as opposed to Van Patten Woods. Depends on the time left today as I have two shorty meetings.

Oops, here's a few links I found on P. nigra and I think that might be up at PETS Park but not at Van Patten. I am going to have to try to make it over there today.

http://einstein.uab.es/botanica/botanica/Herbari/Pinus_nigra_subsp_salzmannii_2.jpg

http://forestis.rsvs.ulaval.ca/BOIS_HTML_2001_X/%20Labo%20Pinophytes%202%20X/Pinus%20nigra%20HTML/image/pinus_nigra_1.jpg

http://www.hanses-koering.de/images/Pinus-nigra-corsicana.jpg

http://forestis.rsvs.ulaval.ca/BOIS_HTML_2001_X/%20Labo%20Pinophytes%202%20X/Pinus%20nigra%20HTML/image/pinus_nigra_2.jpg

http://www.mntca.org/Reference_manual/Images/Pinaceae/pinus%20nigra%20-%20nice%20-%20mature%20cone,%20up%20close%205-12.jpg

http://www.horticulture.missouri.edu/starbuck/list18/pinus_nig_lf.jpg

http://kpe-kastor.kas.sch.gr/dasos/eikones/pinus_nigra_2.jpg

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/earle/pi/pin/nigra3.jpg

http://waste.ideal.es/pinusnigra.htm

http://www.iwoe.de/pflanzen/pinusnigra.jpg

http://www.horticulture.missouri.edu/starbuck/list18/pin_nig.htm

Definitely Pinus nigra based on your cone picture. The color is exactly the same and the basal scales are intact.

Hi Quilib - many thanks! A license isn't needed for herbarium specimens, they are unregulated and can be sent as normal mail; all they need to be is dried

Resin

Hi Kevin - good to get it sorted!

Resin

Hey Resin, I went to PETS Park. The entire park is flooded pretty bad. I was able to gather a few pine cones by parking my car facing into a few stands of Pines that were close to the road then I stood on the hood of my car after I took my shoes off to reach a few branches. I had high heels on and really wasn't in a position to do much more than what I did because I was sinking when I walked around from all the ground waters. From what I can tell, every single Pine over there appears to be nigra.

I made it over to Van Patten Woods. I had time to take a few photos and I'll post them later. From what I can tell, every one over there is resinosa.

From my own little "field experiments", I can tell you that every resinosa needle is snapping. All basal scales from the stalk end of naturally fallen cones of resinosa were missing yet ones that I pulled off by hand retained their scales. I think this characteristic in and of itself is by far the most telltale indicator of whether one has resinosa or nigra. Cones overall were smaller than those of nigra and were consistently that "nut brown" described by you but with a somewhat rudy tint.

Needle texture was most definitely coarser on the nigra. Needles on the nigra could easily be tied in knots without snapping. Interestingly enough, I found a few fascicles that had 3 needles on the nigra but the vast majority only had 2. What say you about this Resin sir? I found no fascicles of more than 2 needles on any resinosa. Some of the cones from the nigra were the size of the resinosa but most were slightly larger. Some of the cones from the nigra had what appeared to be "nut brown' color but most exhibited a yellow/straw/wheat color.

Approximately half of the land that is now Van Patten Woods was formally a gravel pit that was reclaimed by the Forest Preserve District. Over the course of the years, they purchased adjoining properties. Land added to the original parcel was where the resinosa was growing and it appears to be indigenous. I ran into one of the Park employees and asked him what he knew. He said "those were Red Pines" and that they had always been there. I figured there was no point to the exercise of asking him any thing else. My best guess is that those were there. I suspect the stands I found to be "wild". I may be able to verify this in the future through one of the conservation rangers.

Let me know how to deal with customs and I will get you all the pine cones you want. I can't harvest anything from the Forest Preserve property but the people who own the couple hundred acres adjacent had a continuation of that stand on their property and she told me I could take what I wanted. Yes, I stopped in real quick and asked permission and even have a few resinosa cones from her trees as well as a few sprigs that had fallen to the ground.

The only other thought I had about getting the resinosa pine cones to you would have been to fumigate them and create a nice holiday wreath out of them for your front door to send as a "gift". It would have been so much fun adding little red berries with a hot glue gun. I always love the pain of ending up with hot glue on my fingers. I am glad I am spared the task of making a wreath. Do you want me to gather pine cones now or should I wait for a fresh batch this coming fall?

Hi Quilib,

I'd suspect that all P. resinosa can be snapped (the species is remarkably uniform in its characteristics); but at least some P. nigra also snap easily, I've tried it and done it, with verified P. nigra.

Then there's also other related species like Pinus thunbergii, P. tabuliformis, P. hwangshanensis - I don't think they've even been tested! (at least, I've not)

I will go back and get more. How many do you want from her? Do you want them from her trees or from the ground or would a mix be preferable? She had quite a few on her property so I don't think there will be any issues with you asking for as many as you really want. No sense being shy, there will be virtually no weight to them for shipping purposes.

We do need to sort out the export info as my personal information needs to go on the customs form.

Not to spoil your party, but I believe there is one tiny grove of about four native red pines in Illinois, as I recall in Ogle County. All others are planted. But it's very common in parts of northern Wisconsin and Michigan.

Guy S.

http://www.vplants.org/pr/species/PIRE.htm
The Counties in Illinois that allegedly have them are Lake, La Salle, Jo Davies, Ogle, and Union.

Considerably more common in Wisconsin-
http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/gymnosperms/pinres_map01.gif

Even more common in Upper Peninsula Michigan. And, I am relatively sure I have them on my property up there, and quite a few too. I just need to use my new identification skills and make sure.

Guess I should've checked the maps too! USDA Forest Service map for P. resinosa below. So the IL ones will fairly definitely be cultivated, but some from UP MI would certainly be of interest!

I just looked it up -- the county where they are native is LaSalle, not Ogle, sorry. And that population is four relic trees. All the other Illinois populations are anthropogenic. But, on the bright side, this is one of the least heterozygous of all trees, so like old Ronnie Reagan once said, if you've seen one tree you've seen them all!

Still, if Equil can get you some cones from northern Wisconsin or the UP, you'll have true wild-collected material.

Guy S.

This is kind of off topic, but would there be any identifiable variation (i.e. cones, foliage, etc.) between a Red Pine growing wild in Illinois vs. northern Wisconsin? The other thing I was wondering about is would a seedling produced from a planted tree be considered wild? I've got hundreds of volunteer Red & White Pines taking over old pastures/fields, but also have several large Red & White Pines around the house that were most likely planted.

Swink and Wilhelm evidently aren't disagreeing with you on the anthropogenesis of this species because they don't even list it.

What I don't understand is this-
http://www.vplants.org/pr/species/PIRE.htm

and this-
http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/delaware/atlas/wi_iv_ukmo.htm

and then this reference that they are again present in Kenosha County which is like one mile from me-
http://www.botany.wisc.edu/Orchids/herbarium/hookeri.html
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/Forestry/uf/Champion/toptrees.htm

This shows the State Champion as being in the town of Highland which isin Iowa County.

Awww man! My parade got rained on! Here I thought I had something really great.

Ken, try this link-
http://www.uwgb.edu/biodiversity/herbarium/gymnosperms/pinres01.htm

from there scroll down and over to the right is a County map of Wisconsin. If you click on the map, it will take you to another map. That map was the map I was trying to link to and evidently the link failed.

I had a chance to upload photos. These are Pinus nigra cones that were pulled from trees-

These are P. nigra that fell naturally-

This is a P. resinosa pulled from a tree-

These are P. resinosa cones that fell naturally-

And here is my little needle snapping and tying endeavor-