Parrotia Persica Vanessa

I just bought one and was wondering if anyone has any experience with this variety, in particular, its fall color, growth rate, etc. I bought a 3-4ft one from Greer and was going to use it near a Picea Pungeons 'Hoopsi' that I planned on buying this spring. I can probably get about a 4 ft Hoopsi and was wondering if their growth rates might be similiar once they are established.

From what I have been able to glean from Plant Files here at DG the parrotia is listed at ht 20-30' wdth 20-30'. The colorado blue spruce, which needs lots of sun, cultivar "hoopsi" is listed at 15-18' max ht, yet yearly growth at 12". I would conclude the dwarf conifer "slower growing" than the other. Ken

I have read Hoopsi gets to be a tall tree with an ultimate height of around 50-65 ft and width of 10-16ft (from Adrian Bloom's Gardening with Conifers). The Parrotia I got is more of a columnar variety. Here is a link to Klehm's Song Sparrow's website which has about the only good picture I have ever seen of this tree. From their description it grows about a foot per year in the 1st ten years at least. The fall color is my main question as I thought its colors (from the trees description) would work great against the blue of the Hoopsi.

http://www.songsparrow.com/2006new/plantdetails.cfm?ID=1979&type=Woody%20Plants&pagetype=plantdetails

Ask and you shall receive--this is Vanessa this fall.

NICE!
Hopefully they are pretty consistent. How old is this one? Thanks for the pic.

WillyMc, I used a bunch of google ref for "hoopsi" height. You're absolutely right about mature height !2" is a short leader for a big conifer though so it may grow through its dwarfishness. Don't have enough sun for COblues here on my place. Great color combo! Ken

I bought that one in a 20 gal container about 3 years ago, and had to literally saw the roots free. It has been moved three times now, yet it continues to grow nicely. No winter damage so far(plenty of drought damage though!).

Kevin, we had a different experience with it. We have a similar-sized Parrotia here (not the cultivar -- grown from seed). It stood up well to the 2005 drought while the Magnolias, native azaleas, Asimina, Lindera, snakebark maples, and Stewartias all around it were crumbling. I suppose it's some variable combination of soil, slope, root structure, etc.

Guy S.

Ken, I hope I can come up with at least one good combo from staring at books for the 3+ months of winter :) The rest of the grouping would be a Cotinus Grace or Nordine a Purple Pendula Beech maybe a Pinus Strobus Nana in front of the Hoopsi and Tiger Eyes Sumac with some blueberry shrubs and miscanthus in there also. Maybe I'll post a drawing from work tomorrow so people can tear it apart. It is kinda nerve racking posting your designs for people to pick apart. Thanks for the compliment. At least I am happy with the Parrotia purchase now.

Kevin, where did you find a 20 gal size for this tree, local?? Since your not far from Geneva I'll ask ya, is the Japanese Garden at Fabyan Woods worth a visit?

Gethsemane Gardens had them for cheap. I got cheap roots for the cheap price, but so far so good. I haven't been to the Fabyan Garden in many years. I can't even remember it, so I guess it was nothing spectacular. I'd like to visit the one in Rockford which is supposed to be worth the trip.

One other thing, about Cotinus 'Grace'--NOOOOOOOOO!!! Awful plant. It grows 7' or 8' a year and busts apart easily. Try one of the other purple varieties.

I agree with Kevin_5 about Cotinus 'Grace' - DON'T waste your time or planting-real estate on C. 'Grace'; it is an awful plant! I planted it and removed it because of its gangly growth habit and appearance.
Mike

You know I can't swim upstream. Add another no vote to Cotinus "Grace." Weak grower, weird form, perpetually wanted to fall over.

Scott

Thanks for the tip on the Cotinus Grace. I bought a Cotinus Coggygria 'Nordine' from the Morton Arboretum plant sale, is that a better choice than Grace? I have a really small Grace from Rich's Foxwillow. If I put the Grace somewhere else, would it work better as a cut back shrub? Good thing I posted the grouping as I never heard anything bad about the Cotinus Grace before. All the books do is rave about its fall colors. Do you think it is worth installing a root barrier (like the kind for bamboo) with the Tiger Eyes Sumac?

Kevin, Anderson Gardens in Rockford is definitely worth the trip. I'll have to check that Gethsemane Gardens this spring, thanks.

Again, a different experience for comparison. I have 'Grace' planted 3 years ago on a very hot, dry, sterile site (where it belongs). It's growing about 18" per year and thus far looks great with decent form. I suspect that "good garden soil" and "TLC" might be the downfall of this plant. Try in construction rubble on the south side of a masonry wall, or in railroad ballast!

Guy S.

I suspect Guy's advice is right on. "Grace" is a hybrid between Cotinus coggygria and Cotinus obovata, and the American side of this partnership definitely prefers things sparse. In good conditions it seems to whither and is very prone to verticilium wilt. The best I've seen were planted in a parking lot island.

And, yet, given a choice between "Grace" and the straight American species, I'd prefer C. obovata. But if you already have "Grace," abuse her, and hopefully she'll make fools of us all (except Guy, of course).

Scott

This is my Cotinus obovatus (American Smoke Tree). It is truely the most drought hardy tree I have ever grown. Several years back, we had a drought that affected all my trees (of course birch, maple and crabs, but also ash, coffee trees, even lilac). But my smoke tree, it kept growing! And the fall color will outshine any maple.

It can be a real traffic stopper. To the right is a Kentucky tree (the not so good one), Viburnum x juddii and Viburnum carlesii.

A little bit of the Valley, happily harbored in MN.

It's like I'd never left home....excellent, Leftwood. What's your Cotinus obovatus provenance?

Rick,

Ho hum...yawn, stretch ...etc., etc. Just another incredibly beautiful Chittamwood growing in Hennepin County. ;) Seriously, I wonder how many people drive by your place and comment on it without a clue as to what it is. I planted one a couple of summers back and I can only hope that it eventually approaches the fall color of yours. I know they're variable, but I thought the color was a bit better last fall than the previous. Is this what you experienced with yours, or did it have that glow from the beginning?

Bob

Rick,

Have you ever noticed your smoketree setting seed? If so, I'd love to trade for some. I've never been able to find American Smoketree seed.

Scott

Haven't a clue, VV. It came from Greer Gardens. Interesting story though that TL3 knows by heart (so you can skip the rest of this thread). I had another back in the early 90's, my first Cotinus. Grew it for several years in my clay base garden and it wouldn't color up in fall, so I gave it to a friend. The following season it displayed the spectacular fall color that the species is known for in his sandy soil. Meanwhile and determined, I had gotten another (from Greer), put it in the garden and it had good fall color. Since I have transplanted it into the yard in cruddy clay, the color has been spectacular. Whether this is partly or mainly due to age or soil(and water availability) I do not know.

Any speculation? I can tell you that sufficient hardening off does not seem to be a factor, and I realize that different fall environments from year to year could be. But it doesn't seem to jive.

I do know of a Cotinus obovatus in zone 3 in Sauke Center, MN. A friend tells me it has fantastic fall color there too.

Rick

I'm thinking CO needs a pollenator, at least mine. It blooms well every year, but alas, no purple powderpuffs. The nearest one is 9 miles away at the MN arboretum. I have closely inspected the bare seedheads, and there are a few tails evident. The single seeds looked so puny, I figured they were not viable. Maybe I should try a few next season.

Rick

I do love that tree. It just gets a little too big for where I need to have one and I wanted the purple foliage to go against the blue of the Hoopsi, the yellowish of the Sumac and the green of the Nana. My friend moved into a place with a mature CO (I think that is what it is) but it is growing in too much shade to color up well in the fall.

Spectacular photos, Rick!

Might have to order one from Greer... (I gotta stop reading these forums) ...I just don't know where I'd plant one?
Mike

I have had Cotinus Grace ln my sandy bank for 8 years, and I agree with Guy, as mine grows and colors nicely in the drier sandy soil.

DonnaS

My soil must be too rich for this plant because I ordered a C. obovatus from Forest Farm and the plant grew like C. 'Grace'. It never wanted to shut down in the fall; it would grow then stop then take off again right up until a hard freeze. Unfortunately, I have no "crappy, poor" soil in my yard - darn fertile farmland soil! Oh well, I guess I can't grow everything, even though I want to.
Mike

Mike, what a terrible soil problem you have, Ha.

I have had one Parrotia persica (don't know which variety) in my east border for 10 years and have never had a bloom. I keep it because it does have lovely foliage. I decided a couple of years ago to get another from a different source to see if it would bloom. No blooms so far.

DonnaS