JP for sunny south

I'm re-doing the bed(s) that wrap around the front of my house and west side. I've already planted a couple of river brich on the east side but would like to replace the mex. bird of paradise I dug up last year on the west end, with a jap. maple. Is there a JP that will take full sun in my Ark.zone 8?

P

Full sun on the west side in Arkansas? Probably not but a plain green acer palmatum might work. I would suggest a Shantung maple for that site. Its not a palmatum but looks real similar to them in leaf size and shape and needs a lot less water and fuss. Mine has red and purple spring colors right now and fall colors are yellow. They can handle full sun and minor drought.

I think Toby is right and most green varieties are better suited to full sun as well as hard winters ...but if you are not a perfectionist and don't mind a little burning of leaves many red ones will work fine ...I have two cimson queens that recieved 3 weeks of 90 degree pluss weather and did fine ...but had some leaf scorch ..now your a bit further south but I think as long as you aren't into perfection many will work...Go to Dave's plant files scroll down to japanese maples and search for ones that take full sun...then if there are no pics google it up and see what it looks like or after finding ones you like or go to

http://www.esveld.nl/catindex/engels/catheesterseng.htm

This may or may not get you enlish this site is hard to transverse you need to get to english plant catalogue.

There is also a good dvd with just about everything on it ...it has a few glitches but overall is a "b+" put out by I believe eastwoods nursery ...as I said it has flaws but has hundreds of cultivars with 4 or more photos of each...descriptions and siting info ...no zone info though probably cause who the heck really knows what will grow in what zone !!! David

In addition when you use the evald link go to "a" then acer then acer palmatum or whatever acer you want ...David

How hot does it get, and how windy is the situation? Wind can really create leaf burn.

This Crimson Queen is in full sun in zone 9. It's funny, but I thought that red cultivars had better color in full sun. I have five seedling maples that also grow in full sun and a Sango Kaku, a Sherwood Flame and a Suminagashi although the seedlings and the last three will be larger trees. Beni Fushigi is another small cultivar that grows happily in full sun in zone 9. I may have to move mine because it is in too much shade. In fact, our local nursery keeps all of it's Japanese Maples in full sun except the very finely cut ones. My Koto no Ito gets sun almost all day and that is a beautiful tree, perhaps my favorite.

The key for me was to have them hardened (gradually exposed to the harsh situation) before planting. You can do it yourself or you can ask the grower or nursery to do it for you.

Doss i think basically you are correct...climatizing them to the enviorment is especially important ...and the reds do need sun to get their color ...but full sun during the hottest part of the day has been hard on many of my reds but I don't mind minor leaf burn and some leaf loss others might. TThe general rule of thumb is morning sun and afternoon shade or partial shade and my trees that have this look the BEST. It may also be a sun/humidity thing ...AK as well as IL are extreemly humid ...I don't think where you live is anywhere near as humid ( am I wrong) ...this causes a differnt type of stress and may allow your reds to take moe full sun ...just a thought ...all I can say is that my crimsons burnt a bit in the hot full sun ...not at first and not badly ..but I lost some leaves and some were edge singed ...but the late summer flush filled 'em in ... David

You are so right! I don't have your humidity! I'm sure conditions are different and I do get leaf burn on most my full-sun trees, although not the one in the photo for some reason, nor on my Koto no Ito or Sango Kaku. I get fairly bad leaf burn on my Butterfly although it is basically in full shade and protected from the wind. Go Figure. Three out of five seedlings get leaf burn and they are all in similar situations. I get none on my Aconitifolium but it's only in morning sun.

I guess each tree in it's own space gets has it's own personality. I'm with your though. I can live with some leaf burn to have the privilege of living with a Japanese Maple.

Do you think that there are some trees less likely to get leaf burn?

Doss I think most varigaed varieties get burnt badly from what I've heard...I have some but they are too new to know...Isn't butterfly a varigated tree or somewhat of one... I would think logically the JM's with thicker leaves would be more sun worthy while the finer ones with thinner leaves would more easily burn...most varigated trees have sort of wimpy leaves or ...to not get in trouble "finer leaves" ;>).... why your crimson has no burn but mine does who knows maybe the humidity maybe mine is younger ( it is) and will eventually be burnless...But I do think the more heavy / thicker the leaves the less burn they will have and crimsons although dissectums are not paticularly thin leaved IMHO and neither is the koto from what I have seen...as far as other greens they are suppose to take more sun but many have fine leaves ...maybe others here with greens can chip in on this discussion I have mostly reds...I do think though logically it has to do with leaf 'hunkiness' but that's just a theory...David

What you are saying makes sense. And yes, Butterfly has very pale leaves. In my garden almost white. As far as the Crimson Queen it may well be that you get more heat in addition to more humidity. We are in a much more temperate climate than you are altogether I think. And I guess you are right that dissectums aren't thin-leaved. I was thinking more leaf edge surface area to leaf area but perhaps this makes less sense. I know that my Aconitifolium has very thick leaves and doesn't burn. It's just so fascinating.

I was just reading World Plants website
http://www.worldplants.com/mapleintro.htm
and it's fascinating about sun tolerance. I wouldn't have expected Bloodgood to have trouble with sun but it's pretty clear that it does. This site has a wealth of information about trees that thrive in sunny places or are sensitive to the sun. It's worth a cruise even if you aren't looking for a Japanese Maple right now. Makes me wish that I had room for just one more.... Well, there is that magnolia that never took off!

Bigred, if you are not totally stuck on JM's there are some other great choices out there for small tree's. My western enclosure has prairie fire sumac and mexican buckeye. They dont have the architectual interest the acer's do but equal them in fall color and spring interest.
You could also look at a trident maple or a paperbark maple. They get bigger than the jm's but have just as interesting foliage and are a TON hardier.

Sorry to leave ya'll hanging.....been real busy and not getting any computer time.


I had a Crimson Queen at the back corner of my house that got full afternoon sun. Had to move it last fall so hub's could do some septic tank work....which he still hasn't done.It did great there.

I'm growing off some red leaf type I received seeds for in a trade so maybe growing them in my climate from seed and acclimating them as they grow. Heaven's only knows how long it'll be before they're big enough to plant out.

My garden club went on a field trip last April to a woodland garden. There were ,"Butterfly"maples planted every where! No real friend in the garden club as no one would watch my back as I pulled out my hidden garden spade to dig one up to take home....LOL...just kidding.

P

Bigred is that Crimson Queen the frilly, lacey looking one? I remember that name and its the first one I fell in love with.
Sylvia

That's the one. It's pretty sad looking after last fall's move. Lots of die back so I had to do some serious pruning.Hope it makes it thru and looks better next year.

P

Is Bloodgood JM a good choice for zone 6? Anyone have other suggestions?

Thanks,
Teresa

Teresa, What is the size you want and what is it sun, shade or partial shade? Does it need to be a tree that stays red in the summer?

I like the fringe leaf ones but they are so pricey here. I do like the red ones that keep the color during the summer. I need a very hardy type to start with. Do they need partial shade?
Teresa

Not to butt into this conversation but..in your area at least afternoon shade would be best ....Most dissectums will grow where you are but still need.... "What is the size you want" and whether you want a weeper or uprigtht ...most dissectums "fringy stuff" are weeping bush types ..a very few like serryu is upright but green .... My orangeola did very well in full sun last summer but again need to know how red you want it cause it like its name is a mixture if red green and orange in summer full sun...send more info of exactly what you are looking for and doss can I'm sure help ...da buttinski ...David

You're no buttinski David. I'm always learning from you.

But still no info on size. It's very important! For instance, Bloodgood can get quite big but there are other cultivars that are red and shorter.

I would like this one to be in the front of my house. It is a single story ranch type, so I think the shorter one would be best.

Thanks for helping, I need all that I can get! Now any names on the smaller varieties?
Teresa

Personally, I would plant 2 or 3, one taller one to shade the other two! Then you could have the taller, maybe faster growing, variety be a regular leafed one in an upright shape, and have a shorter, slow grower like the crimson queen, and if a third, pick a nice contrast to the other two.

I would suggest standing in places you imagine others looking at the house from--or that you will have a sitting area in and look over at it and imagine the height and spread you would like. Are there any obstacles in the way such as power lines or underground utilities? Then think about red vs green and if there are other trees behind it, what fall color would contrast nicely with them.

I'm also a newbie, but this is the method I am using in trying to pick which varieties I want. I like trees that contrast with one another in shape, height, and such. I have huge oaks for shade, so my maples have some sun or some shade in most locations in my yard.

Laura

my neighbor loves my red jap.maple and would like to put one in his yard but where he wants it,sits atop a hill(slope....mole hill)in full sun and bone dry sandy soil.Both he and his wife work and barely do any watering and when they do they run a cheay sprinkler for 10-15 min. in one spot then move it. I recommend he get something that looks like a red jap.maple such as a purple leaf plum......but not like the one in my east side neighbor's that suckers like crazy and always coming up in my flowerbeds and now even in the lawn. I think they planted it to annoy me...they don't like my hub's so I catch the fall out.

P

I have very heavy clay soil, what should I use for amendments?

Bigred - you are a good friend to your neighbor. They would certainly be wasting their money putting in a Japanese Maple - or any other tree if they won't water it while it's getting established.

I don't know how much space he has but something like a Mimosa that isn't fond of water might be the thing. They are beautiful but messy so he doesn't want to put somewhere like a patio though.

Bluegrassmom - my nursery uses rose planting mix in our clay soil.

Edited to say that this probably isn't the best thing to use, accordiing to another A. Palmatum nursery. They say that the rose food it too rich.

This message was edited Apr 7, 2006 4:48 PM

Doss I love the mimosa ...but alas they are hard to grow here ...I have seen some large ones in sheltered spots but it may be just a freak thing or they came from a macho tree but mine died back almost every winter ...I did get it to bloom one year after a mild winter ...after its year after year "cleaning" of dead crap i deep sixed it...Burt in AR it should grow great I agree ...Also i love the golden rain tree here's my review at dave's ..I think it would also do well in AR and since the soil is not as good seed spread would not be a problem ...I love 'em
GOLDEN RAIN TREES
Well it seems there are a couple differnt varieties listed ...I have NO idea what i've got but... I must say I love this tree. It does well in zone 5 has survived -25 degrees. It is a fast grower HERE and is beautiful year round. Yes the seeds sprout wherever they drop!!! but unlike maples and other trees just cut them off and they are dead so control is a breeze. As far as being invasive ...they are NO more so than any other small to medium size shade tree!! if trimed up you can grow shade grass under them if not you can't... They can also be planted in shady areas as a understudy tree and grow irregularly which can also be really neat looking and can be trimed to be kept smaller in those shady spots ... The seed pods are interesting but IMHO the leafs and blooms and branch structure is dynamic and beautiful. I give this tree an overall A+ especially nice in a northern area like ours cause it's sort of tropical looking unlike any other northern tree I've ever grown. David

David - well we have zone drift here. Sometimes I forget to look - no I looked but didn't look hard enough. They are only hardy to zone 6.

Anyway, you and I are on the same page - the Golden Chain Tree sounds wonderful and looks even better. I don't see them here so perhaps it's just a little toasty for them here.

But I guess that your friends can spend their money any way they want to. :-)

," the Golden Chain Tree" ( there is such a tree but it's not this I don't think???!!!)................... No Doss I was speaking of the GOLDEN RAIN TREE ..it is on Dave's and there may be more than one variety ...as far as mimosa I think it will do fine in AZ but you are correct the farthest north it can be planted is 6a there seems to be several varieties of them also who knew??? David

I like the GOLDEN RAIN TREE even better. It has a beautiful canopy and yellow flowers too.
I didn't know that there were different types of Mimosa either. I had to put mine out of their misery when one got crown rot. I replaced them with Betula 'Crimson Frost' which I like very much and they don't hang over the roof and drop - well, everything.

I drive by a large mimosa that is near the edge of the woods. I like them because of the hummingbird attraction but neaver planted one in the yard. They are messy and sprout very easy.

Everyone says the Mimosa tree is messy, but my tree dont drop any thing. I wish it did I could use a few more around here, they are so graceful. Matter of fact I dont have any of those seed pods hanging off the tree either. I wonder why ... and I had this tree for eight years.
Sylvia

It may be like most other plants, just a different variety. I have seen hummingbirds nest on them. So cute to watch.

I have both golden rain and golden chain trees in my yard. Golden rain(one with yellow fireworks looking flowers)has bloomed the passed two year but the other one I had to lop the central lead off because it was so tall and lanky,the wind blew it over all the time,even staked and it was always lop-sided on the top. It forked after the loping and is no longer a problem in the wind and it's not even staked any more. Hoping for at least one bloom cluster this year.

Mimosa trees are trash trees here and have a short life spand due to trunks spliting and "bleeding"(sap) to death and it stinks to high heavens when it happens.

Neighbor wants the look and color of red maple so I'm still researching.

P

I'm sorry Bigred. I can't remember the shape and height that you wanted.

We can get back on the A. Palmatum idea if you want.

My Sherwood Flame and Suminagashi both are in full sun. The important watering time will be the first couple of years and then a good soak once a week should do it. Soaker hoses would be perfect - or I use a root feeder to water my maples sometimes.

They aren't really red, red in the summer time but they are very pretty.

If you tell us how big, maybe we can help you bettter.

I kind of like Mimosa's. My dad has a huge one in his back yeard that is 50 + years old. Its still alive but ready for retirement. They have never had any broken limbs fall on the house or other issues from weak wood. My neighbor also has a 4 year old tree that has reached 20'. I cant imagine a better tree for small city micro lots. My neighbor's tree does not form seed pods and grows 3-4' a year at least. Maybe its a female or an improved breed, i'm not sure but no suckers and no seed pods. I have seen a large one down by the creek which is troubling. I know they are not indigenous. I picked up a chocolate mimosa last year and i'm waiting to see what it will do. Now if someone could come up with a redbud that does not produce 100's of seed pods.

Back to the original poster, why not try a japonicum, shantung, paperbark, trident, or other non palmatum? I love palmatum's but they are way too high maintenance for the south. Especially if you are wanting to start with a sappling. I lost a 4' seiryu this winter from a freeze...i'm not sure how that happened. I have several that were in pots outside that survived. I would definitely look into the Shantung, it has the same leaf size as the palmatum but a different more upright branching structure. Tridents are also beautiful.

Toby whats a Chocolate Mimosa? What color flower they have? Is ther a link anywhere? Would love to know.
Sylvia

Sorry gang,I didn't mention size. I'm gonna say 25-30 ft. Haven't had a change to check plant files. Very busy in the greenhouses so I'm not getting much computer time plus I dropped my glasses yesterday(didn't know it) and mowed over them so I'm trying to see outta hub's spare glasses until I can get replacements. My eyesights not getting bad,my arms are getting shorter....LOL. I do know it's gonna have to be a pretty care-free tree and I'll probably sneak over when they're at work and water it the first year.

The wife came over yesterday and gave me a hand-painted bib apron made out of canvas or maybe it's duck,nice sturdy material w/three pockets across the bottom that has a big hat w/gardening tools on the first pocket,next one has wheelbarrow w/ flowers in it,last one has watering can and the upper part and bib has covered w/ a flower garden and birdhouse. Just adorable. Wasn't that sweet of her? She said she saw it and thought of me.

P


P

If your looking for a tree that big many are available to choose from ...BUTTTTTT it will take decades to get that big even in AR...So firstly I'd rcommend getting a larger tree ..#1 you give it a better chance IMHO with a more established root system and of course you've subtracted 4 or more years to grow it up.... But it will be expensive especially if you are giving it to the neighbor...and therefore you might want to look at something a bit less expensive for it's size and faster growing than most JM's ...Of course if that is your MAXIMUM size and shorter is ok and they won't croak waiting for it to grow up ;>) then Doss can give you abunch of ideas ..I'll chirp in after he is dfone if there is something I think to add ;.) David

I'll go look. Funny that I thought that since you were replacing a bird of paradise you wanted something a little smaller. LOL

If you really want a tree that big then seedlings won't work because you won't know it's temperment.

Apparently a Trident will adapt to dry conditions. Not an Palmatum but it sounds as if it would be great.
http://www.carlmontnursery.com/product.asp?product_id=597

Here's a list at Carlmont of trees that make it to your size. If it says partial shade avoid it. I have a coral bark growing in full sun and it's very happy. They grow them in full sun here and the get VERY big.

You also have to consider whether you want an upright tree or one that spreads.

http://www.carlmontnursery.com/page.asp?page=1&page_id=82&name=&HeightIni=15&HeightEnd=30&Form=&Color=&Exposure=&Color_fall=&Product_group=

At Mountain Maples I found this fast growing red tree
http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_Cookie=4.8.06_09,58,09_37/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-Show***CJH-BJA-238238238240244239-1441***-Class***-***MM(directory)***.ws4d?MM/testproduct.html

Here are Mountain Maple's other choices for you. They do tend to understate the size of their trees though.
http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_Cookie=4.8.06_09,58,09_37/*ws4d-db-query.ws4d?Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DAlpha1=%5BAll+Groups%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DAlpha4=%5BAll+Cultivars%5D&Condition=and&Condition=contains&%5BClass%5DAlpha5=%5BAny+Color%5D&Condition=and&Condition=contains&%5BClass%5DAlpha6=%5BAny+Color%5D&Condition=and&Condition=contains&%5BClass%5DAlpha7=%5BAny+Color%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DAlpha8=%5BAny+Habit%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DAlpha9=%5BAny+Leaf+Shape%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DAlpha12=16-20&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DAlpha13=%5BAny+Size%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is+less+than+or+equal+to&%5BClass%5DNumber3=%5BAny+Zone%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is+greater+than+or+equal+to&%5BClass%5DNumber4=%5BAny+Zone%5D&Condition=and&Condition=is&RecordsPerPage=10&Results-Table=results%28c%29.table&Submit.x=80&Submit.y=11&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DStorefrontID=3&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DOK2Publish=True&Condition=and&Condition=is&%5BClass%5DNumber5=1&Database=Class&BreakTable=10&Page=0&SortBy=%5BClass%5DText1&LinkField=%5BClass%5DText1&Results=results.html&Results-1-Record=testproduct.html&No_Records=No_Records.html&Table-Color-Even=%23ffffff&Table-Color-Odd=%23ffffff

Here's one that might work- I've never heard of it but it's fast growing and happy in sun apparently
http://www.fast-growing-trees.com/GlowingEmbersT2.htm

You'll have to go through this list yourself for height, however someone on another thread said that they were craving a Crimson Prince.
http://www.worldplants.com/upright.htm
However, I think that they may understate the final size of these trees too - although over a longer time frame. Many of the new trees haven't had time to really show their true potential in height.

I don't have any stock in these nurseries and I've never bought from them but they each have search engines of different sorts. You should be able to spend quite awhile searching for trees and enjoy it. Your tree will outlive you if it's properly cared for and it's the right tree in the right space.

David, do you have any specific comments?