Old World fern

Does anyone else have problems with this vine? It seems to be herbicide resistant and it grows on the ground, trees, houses, anything it can attach to. If anyone knows of a way to get rid of it let me know.

escambiaguy, Have you tried VineX?. On a stubborn vine try cutting the vine at six to twelve inches above the ground and within seconds coat the stub with it. Then paint all the remaining areas. You might even want to secure a plastic bag over the stubs. Watch for new shoots from roots away from the stub and treat the same. I purchased mine at Home Depot.

I am curious as to what this vine is.

http://www.vine-x.com/

This vine is native to Europe and Asia I believe. I dont think VineX would work because the stem of it is very thin, almost like thin spaghetti. I cannot pull it up by the roots because it breaks very easily. This plant is a big problem in my area, especially in pine forests.

My mistake, this plant is not Old World Fern, it is Japanese climbing fern. The two are somewhat similar.

Wow! that is a toughie! This link for control says Backpack Sprayer - glyphosate
Hard to do without killing every thing else around it. You could try a paintbrush. Pretty time consuming but maybe worth it in the long run?

http://www.invasive.org/browse/subject.cfm?sub=3045

Better link, much more information.
Hope it helps.
This link isnt working the way I would like it too.

www.dep.state.fl.us/

lands/invaspec/2ndlevpgs/ pdfs/JapaneseClimbingFernControlTrialsPlantedPine.pdf

It is worth getting to. There is hope!

Lygodium japonicum

You might want to skip using Vine-X on that. You might make it mad. I wasn't familiar with Vine-X per say but I am familiar with Triclopyr.

If you can, gently pull as much of the vine off its host as is possible. Lay it out on a tarp of some sort. If you can't pull it off the host, try to arrange a tarp underneath dense areas of the vine where little other desirable vegetation is present. Try to arrange the vine so that you will be able to spray some undersides of its leaves. Now hit it with RoundUp or Accord on a day when there is little or no wind. Don't use the concentrated form of either product. You'd want regular strength so that you don't kill off the vegetation above ground too fast. You'll want the chemical to work its way through the plant. In about 10 days, repeat. Concentrated forms appeal to our desire to kill these types of plants fast but often leave us with regrowth because they work too fast leaving roots unscathed to come back and grace us with their presence.

Wait a little bit to go out and start nailing them when your day time air temps are consistently over 60 yet under 80. Late morning is best.

You took a really good photo. Before you go out and kill off all of your vines, would you take more detail photos and please add them here-
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/32029

editing to add- nice links snapple

This message was edited Feb 17, 2006 9:19 AM

I want to add two things to the commentary.

1. Make sure you have absolutely ID'd the plant. There are multiple Lygodium species out there; one is even a native. I don't claim to know this genus at all, but a little bit of reading reveals that it is oppositely branched/arranged. Is your plant in the picture oppositely branched?

http://www.se-eppc.org/subject.cfm?sub=3045
http://www.invasive.org/eastern/srs/JCF.html

2. Different chemical application techniques work in different conditions and locations. Escambiaguy (and others) need to find out what works well for them, in their situation, and for their abilities. A good primer:

http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/handbook.html

I believe it is not often necessary to go to great contortions with application methods . Being careful with applications so off-target plants/people/environment are not degraded, that's where energy (and thought) needs to go.

The vine in question (Japanese climbing fern) could be lopped off low to the ground, allowed to resume growth, and then nailed with the appropriate herbicide when its foliage covers a relatively small area and can vigorously translocate herbicide to its underground rhizomatous structures. Higher success rates can be achieved with this method (you'll also end up applying a lot less chemical), but you may want to try a smaller area with this first to see for yourself, and/or contact invasives control specialists to determine if there are any severe drawbacks to this technique. You may also want to volunteer on a invasives management outing with trained/experienced people to observe varying techniques/methods and get a lot of good learnin' for free.

Application method can also be simplified, to reduce off-target damage. I haven't traversed much of DG to see if this has been mentioned before elsewhere, but where you have sensitive plants nearby when controlling invasives with herbicides, the old Glove of Death method might just be the cat's meow.

GLOVE OF DEATH PROCESS:
•Mix the amount of herbicide you expect to use to the appropriate concentration in an easily-carried bucket (I use a tall five gallon bucket so I don't tip or spill accidentally).
•Arm yourself with sleeve-length rubber/latex/other impermeable gloves, and then put one disposable jersey cloth glove (over the impermeable one) on the hand you use to handle things.
•Make the jersey-gloved hand wet with the chemical (your hand is protected by the rubber/latex/other water-impermeable glove inside the jersey glove) but not dripping everywhere.
•Grasp the plant chosen to die, making it wet with the herbicide.
•Repeat with every plant you wish to eliminate.

As long as you don't grab anything you don't want to kill with the wet jersey glove, or drip chemical indiscriminately, you can nail plants this way without a lot of effort or extra equipment. You will want to be careful with this method (if handling sharp or thorny plants) because it is possible to puncture the impermeable glove. You don't want to soak your skin with the chemical.

It's a great way to eliminate a pest from within an existing plant, or in ornamental beds of plants. You don't have to worry about drift, or covering things with tarps, etc. If you don't use all the chemical you mixed, pour it into a sealable marked container and use it up as soon as possible.

One more thing: read everything you can about the chemical you choose to use BEFORE extensive use. Some chemicals have varying environmental persistence; Garlon 4 is one. Roundup essentially has none, when used according to label directions. Concentration at application does make a huge difference, and here I will disagree with some of EQ's above posting. If there are chemists out there reading that wish to correct or enhance what I write next, please do for the edification of all.

Glyphosate (as Roundup and other brands) is very effective at the commonly prescribed label rates, often listed as 1-2%. Some persistent pest plants are recommended for treatment at higher concentrations. Also, remember that is illegal to use the chemical contrary to the label. Mode of action remains the same, however.

•Roundup does NOT act faster at higher rates. It acts longer.
•Its mode of action is to disrupt production of necessary plant amino acids.
•The total amount of molecules of Glyphosate applied is the extent to which it will kill a plant.
•Many plants don't need many molecules to wipe them out.
•Other plants (like those with persistent and widespread underground structures prone to resprouting after death of the tops) need more molecules translocated in order to suppress or kill them.

Edited to say "amino acids" instead of proteins.

That's why the higher concentrations are recommended, to get more molecules absorbed by the plant. This has its limits obviously; don't pour undiluted Roundup on anything because the plant can't possibly absorb the chemical in any useful way in that manner. Using the label recommendations, test the efficacy of this chemical by applying it to some of your pest at the lowest rates and to some of your pest at the highest rates allowed. See what works for you, your pest, your situation.

Wake up, class.

This message was edited Feb 17, 2006 11:18 AM

Hey VV, save his image to your harddrive then enlarge it for better viewing- it was really hard for me to look at it from his photo until I saved it and went in with an enlargement tool. Appears to me the plant he photographed is alternate.

In retrospect, faster wasn't a good choice of a word.

I'm certainly no chemist but my understanding of how Glyphosate works is actually similar to yours I believe. Let me put it in my words- A Glyphosate appliction inhibits production of EPSP synthase enzyme in some plants. Once this enzyme is inhibited, the plants ability to manufacture aromatic amino acids is severly compromised which interrupts the metabolic process of the plant to the extent that most will be dead in 14 days. Some plants will require a second application.

By using a ready to use form of RoundUp off a shelf that is already dilluted, the product is being used consistently with the labeling. One problem, I figured more was better and in an attempt to nuke vines I have here, I went for the 32 oz RoundUp Super Concentrate and chose to apply that without dilluting it at all. Great way to go to treat freshly cut stumps of some species of trees/shrubs but wasn't so great for doing in any of my vines because the ability of the plant to translocate the chemical to the roots was cut off for lack of a better word. I ended up with vines shooting up all over the place taunting me by chanting "nanner nanner nanner you didn't get me... or me... or me... or me...or me!" Porcelain Berry did it to me first, then Poison Ivy and a few others but most notably Bittersweet Nightshade and that darn Filed Bindweed. English Ivy is still popping up here and there because of its darn waxy leaves and I suspect I will be dealing with that for a while because I just can't get the RTU RoundUp to fully reach all the roots to decompose them. Basically, it was my understanding that killing off all of the roots or rhizomes was the ultimate goal which would effectively kill the entire plant. Based on my personal experiences; the minute I began dilluting the concentrated RU as opposed to using it straight out of the bottle undiluted, it killed off most vines about 10 days after a second application.

I think we are saying the same thing, aren't we? Correct me please. I'm going to have volunteers here very soon and if I my understanding is not correct, I need to be able to grasp all peripheral issues so that I can keep going at killing these things.

I looked up the American climbing fern and it is not what I have. I believe mine is the Japanese version. I have noticed that it doesn't thrive under oaks nearly as well as under pines. I guess it may be the dappled sunlight. I have contacted the timber company that owns the land next to me to see if they would do a prescribed burn. They are still so busy doing hurricane cleanup that they probably wont get around to it this year. I will take more pictures showing the vine and what it can do to trees.

Escambiaguy:

If you are able, could you cut and bring into a clear site to photograph some parts of the vine for clearer images to post (like photos of it laying on a driveway, or white background)?

Extirpate:

You are saying several things. Some are the same as what I wrote, some almost, and some not. None bad, just different.

•One thing not said so far: glyphosate doesn't kill seed. Germination of new plants is not an indication that Roundup didn't work on the parent plant. Not saying that is your situation, but I know a lot of instances where it was.

•The mode of action of glyphosate sounds right, without me going to look it up. Time of death will vary, obviously, and some plants take more than one or two treatments. That gets to the next item.

•The reason the viney plants you've discussed weren't vanquished instantly is precisely because the concentration of the chemical absorbed was low enough to not kill enough of the plant, and those plants have the fabulous ability to resprout energetically.

•I don't know the formulation of the concentrate you had/have, but I bet that you have to mix it in at least some carrier (water) in order for it to work. Kind of like making Kool-Aid without adding water. If you applied the concentrate with no dilution, you probably had no absorption. The higher concentrates can be mixed down to a number of percent solutions (probably 20%, 10%, 5%, 2%, 1%, etc.), depending on what you started with in the bottle. Higher finished mixtures of glyphosate (with the proper carriers and surfactants) allow greater amounts of the chemical to be absorbed when applied properly. It helps to have plenty of absorbing plant tissue so that the chemical can be translocated more thoroughly through the plant. You might liken it to dosage with pharmaceuticals. One aspirin/etc. gives a certain amount of relief for a mild headache. Two aspirin might be necessary when the rugrats have been screaming incessantly. A couple extra strength style are mandatory when you slam the door on your toe and rip off the nail. You want a higher concentration for the escalating pain.

•The molecules of glyphosate performs the disruption mentioned above, but only so far as those molecules are "used up." If the plant (like ivy, bindweed, porcelain berry, bittersweet) has extensive resources and reserves, then only part of the plant will die because low concentrations of glyphosate molecules only disrupt a portion of the plant metabolism. Ability to resprout occurs, and you launch into a second application, and kill some more of the plant. There are some (few) plants that aren't affected at all by glyphosate's mode of action, but most will eventually be worn down.

•I vote for the removal of as much top growth as practicable (since that's free death and often reduces/eliminates that season's reproduction) and treat the fresh regrowth. This is recommended by others as well. The only time not to do this is if that species is effectively made a worse pest by cutting it off first. That's why it's imperative to first, know thine opponent.

You (and friends) have worked with enough of the natural areas managers around your part of the world. Ask them about variations in application methods and techniques. Nothing like good local info. If they are scientists, ask them about the specifics of glyphosate mode of action. The more you know about it, the better you can target your methods to tackle the pest in question because there is no "one size fits all" answer. You can apply the same treatment to each pest, but you won't always get the same or best result. This knowledge will make the efforts of you and your volunteers most Efficacious.

Rhamnus, Ampelopsis, Celastrus, Toxicodendron, Convolvulus, Phragmites; now you need an aspirin, eh? Each of those has a slightly varied way in which they are most effectively dealt with. Combinations of methods (based on your ability to perform and the constraints you have to live within) will yield the results you are after (eventually).

Here's a picture of it creeping along the ground.

Here's a close-up.

I first ran into Lygodium japonicum in Hawaii last spring. Very attractive plant but obviously there are "issues" with it.

The Super Concentrate RoundUp is 50.2% glyphosate isoproylamine salt. I called the 888# on my bottle and spoke with a Supervisor. This about sums it up, "I went for the 32 oz RoundUp Super Concentrate and chose to apply that without diluting it at all...I ended up with vines shooting up all over the place ". When one is dumb, one pays. And I paid by having to go up after the resprouts.

We discussed dilution ratios and she indicated that anything greater than that which was already available in the RTU would be a waste of chemical for the vines I was trying to kill as well as for the Lygodium japonicum. She indicated that RTU (Ready To Use) RoundUp applied to the foliage should have some visible results within a week and that if the plant was not dead in 14 days, it needed to be reapplied to the foliage. We didn't discuss protecting other plants from possible overspray. I just wanted to ask specifically about Glyphosate being used on Lygodium japonicum as opposed to Triclopyr.

Sorry about the confusion but... the volunteers I will be getting here very soon will be Poison Ivy volunteer seedlings as well as others. The only time I am ever offered help over here is when it comes time to burn something and then the closet pyros (husband, father, brothers, sons, nephews, male neighbors, etc) crawl out of the woodwork because Y chromosomes can't pass up an opportunity to burn anything. If I time myself properly when taking down buckthorn and other ickies and don't drag them all out and over to the burn pile, the Y chromosomes will "volunteer" to drag some of my fruiting buckthorn tops out to add to their bonfire when it starts burning down. Other than that, they all just stand around acting manly and watching the fire burn. That's how I get volunteers over here. I start by heaping the burn pile. Sooner or later they can't take it any more and the urge to burn gets to them so they start it ablaze. One less thing I have to do.

Line up the marshmallows!

The voice of another Y chromosome!

Weiner Roast! Get the Oscar Meyer mobile to come to my house!