Would like thoughts on this shared...

I would like to know what experiences or thoughts others may have on Bill's comments-

Quoting:
The most interesting procedure I heard about in connection with planting a large tree was the removal of the leaves to prevent the drying out of the tree through the leaves, i.e. death. This forced the tree to put out hairroots to survive................. It worked. (I don't recall if the item was bareroot... and leafing out, or balled with root disturbance)
This is not the first I have heard of this yet there have been no discussions of this practice to the best of my knowledge.

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

This seems like a harsh treatment. When trees are dug in the field, sprinklers are run continuously on them to keep the foliage moist until delivery. Isn't the leaf removal added shock? I once had a long flatdeck truck loaded for next-day delivery of large street trees. Sprinklers ran continuously over the back of the truck. The only time I could see this practical is late in the season before dormancy.

I'm sure timing in addition to species will be a factor in the larger scheme of things as pertains to this practice which defies logic but this truly is not the first time I have seen this mentioned and curiosity is getting the best of me.

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

There is too little information in the provided quote, and too many variables involved in any transplantation situation to make a blanket statement as an answer.

Would Bill (or anyone) advocate this practice with, say, a needled conifer? A broadleaf evergreen like rhododendron, live oak, or American holly?

This is an anecdotal story about one tree. No information about category of tree or initial condition just makes this a big chest-thumper of a debate, but hey I'm game.

To assume that the leaves needed to be removed in order for the tree to not dry out and die assumes that inadequate root system was present or inadequate water supply was going to be provided. Not good planning, to start with. As growin has indicated, deficient roots can be overcome by adequate application of moisture, both at the roots and as humidity/cooling to the foliage (if the plant is in leaf). This can, and has been, accomplished not only at commercial enterprises but in finished landscapes. Not cheap, though. And point in growth cycle (again as mentioned by growin) as well as category and species of plant makes all kinds of difference in how a plant will respond not only to root reduction but also to foliage removal. This is the basis of standards in the nursery industry. If the tree was approaching dormancy, I'd agree with growin that this wouldn't be detrimental, but I'd also venture it was unnecessary. Either move the tree later, or apply moisture until dormancy occurred. The more I ponder this, the more it sounds like alchemy and charlatanism.

"This forced the tree to put out hair roots to survive... Proven, how? No other causal factor or normal response to root pruning (transplantation) can initiate hair root production on transplanted trees? This mostly falls into the category of belief in spontaneous generation, which if I remember from my high school biology, went out sometime after the Middle Ages when people figured out puddles didn't form frogs.

It worked. One tree survived transplantation, and I'd venture in spite of being denuded of foliage. This is not enough information to begin to make categorical statements about the practice, much less inspire one to apply the technique.

Expiscation: Congrats, you made me vent (Vesuvius Valley?). I'm curious to hear from others as well on this, or about other off-the-beaten-path techniques. I know you lifted this from a parallel thread on this forum, and I hope Bill from Newfoundland doesn't take the above comments as attacks. They are not. My comments are pointed at the belief in the idea (not the poster), unquestioned, because that makes for egregious errors in execution or implementation.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

Quoting:
Expiscation:


That means removal of fish?

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Resin asks:

Quoting:
That means removal of fish?


Maybe in the UK? Sorry, don't have the conversion factor!

Someone is supposed to fish out their own meaning.

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

VV, Overhead application of moisture using sprinklers is significantly cheaper than a replacement. If the plant dies in the landscape, the contract states replacement. If I think back to the flatdeck delivery it would be a very expensive replacement. Field crews to dig the tree, Transportation vehicle, in this case ferry fares, gas, driver, phone calls, etc. We stuck a sprinkler in each corner of the flatdeck directed inwards which took about an hour to hook-up with me and a shipper (cheap labour).

Tie'ing the branches tight into the central leader makes for easier shipping and reduces leaf loss in transport. If you wanted to test out the leaf-loss theory, pop the tree in the back of the truck and drive around town on the highway for a day or so. If anything I'd say this treatment would promote die-back at the central leader tip and promote suckering.

Hey resin, Expiscation is just another E nick name for me created by V V. He's somewhat trapped at home lately and has been allowing his creative juices to flow. There's a whole slew of new E nick names for me out and about in the threads ;)

Regarding Bill, I have no doubt he is as curious as I am. To the best of my knowledge, he only restated that which he has heard in the past hence few details.

Wow V V, puddles won't form frogs? I didn't know that. Gosh, I just love DG, ya learn sumthin new every day!

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Growin:

You and I am/are (we be) in accord. The "not cheap" referred to post-planting treatment in a finished landscape (to humidify/mist a whole tree of large dimension). Any plant supplier worth his fertilizer will provide his materials in topnotch condition, including hosing/spraying the plants while waiting for transport, as loaded, and maybe even a couple of times while going over the road. I've performed the task myself more than once.

As for the de-leaf-ification technique: that's what we call the bozos who drive plant-loaded trucks around without tarps. We take quick notes of business names and make sure they never get any jobs from us.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

Hi V V,

Ex: Latin, 'out of'

Pisc-: Latin pisces, fish

-ation: Latin, action

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Gotcha. No classical training in Latin here.

I can't believe you gave it away, though. Now EQ is out of fish action.

Fishless breath here... just checking up on you two.

Funny thing, I've been out of fish action for a bit now. We had a fish tank of angels for about 10 years and the last two died a few weeks ago. I was using the fish that started dying off over the last year or so from old age in that tank to toss in holes I dug for shrubs last fall. I have no idea if their existance in the holes provided any additional benefits for my plants but hey... the Native Americans did it so why not!

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Hi Emulsification:

Resin and I just have a poor long distance connection. I think you know all about THAT. We do continue to build on each others experiences, however, and lose nothing in the translation due to misunderstandings related to accent.

Speaking of a wish list: HOW COME, Resin hasn't posted a note for a Conifers Forum? My favorite two, being swallowed by Aesculus, are crying out...

Thumbnail by ViburnumValley

Emulsifier here... nice Buckeye V V. I suppose you have that down there by you too, eh? Yup, know all about poor phone connections! There there there now... it will be all over for you soon enough and you'll have no more disconnects.

I think one of us should start a thread and ask for a Conifer Forum in honor of resin! Requests for new forums get posted here-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/dg/all/

So, who is brave enough to go and post a request for a new forum? If Guy was home, he'd probably go and ask.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

I'd been wondering why I couldn't find a conifers forum!

Can't find a fish forum, either. There must be a plaice for one here.

Resin

Wauconda, IL

Seems like it would be added stress to the tree, and also take away its ability to make food for itself.

Well, I guess we'll never know Dode. I stuck the dead fish in some of the holes of the Hazelnuts I was planting... remember those? I dug 25 5-gallon sized holes all by myself with my trusty shovel and got all 25 of them in the ground as the sun was setting and finished up mulching around the bases and was too darn tired to put them in Miracle Tubes. The next morning I got up bright and early to "protect" them from Bambi and Thumper and they had been eaten down to the ground over night. If I recall, you stopped in that very same day and we surveyed the damage together.

Regarding new forums, any one out there interested in asking for a Prairie/Meadow forum? I bet there'd be a lot of interest in that forum too.

Saint Bonifacius, MN(Zone 4a)

I'd go for a Native Forum. Though I do get into our praire life here, I think it's a little too narrow in focus yet.

Funny you should mention a Native Plants Forum. I asked for one last year or maybe it was the year before.

We've got a Native Plants Forum. It's sort of hidden under the title of Indigenous Plants-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/wildplants/all/

Invasive Species of both flora and fauna, Integrated Pest Management, and Weeds in general have a forum too and it's sort of hidden under the title of Garden Foes-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/pad/all/

Saint Bonifacius, MN(Zone 4a)

Indigenous Plants. I'm off to take a look.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

What counts as an indigenous plant on a global forum???

Saint Bonifacius, MN(Zone 4a)

I hear ya . . . entiendo . . . razumete . . .

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

indigenous forum = environmentalists forum

growin, shhhhh... that's a well kept secret ;)

Seriously, most Native Plant folk are naturalists or environmentalists.

My original suggestion had been that the forum be titled North American Native Plants. Pretty much that's all that's in there now anyway. My thoughts were that people would readily identify the forum with the use of the word Native given most Native plant societies and organizations use that word as opposed to indigenous. Other thoughts were that if there was enough interest in Native plants from say.. folks in The UK or in Australia or Europe or where ever that new forums could be added based on a need to provide areas of interest for Native Plant loving members from other continents. I don't recall how it ended up being titled as it is but I am very grateful the forum is there. If interest continues to grow and they see a need for a split by renaming the current forum North American Indigenous Plants when say a UK Indigenous Plants forum is added, it will happen. They're pretty responsive here.

edited to change UK Native Plants Forum to UK Indigenous Plants Forum which is where native plants are discussed here.

This message was edited Feb 4, 2006 9:29 PM

Saint Bonifacius, MN(Zone 4a)

Please don't call me an environmentalist. They almost appropriated my land for "canoe country" near the BWCAW in northern Minnesota. Besides our .75 mile long lake, there is not another lake or navigable stream for 2 miles around.

I got condemned once. There will always be extremists.

Appleton, WI(Zone 5a)

OK this threads off course anyway, last spring the Weather Channel had a info piece by Scott's on planting trees and it showed them taking a b & b tree and knocking the dirt off and planting it as a bareroot. Don't know how that snuck by all the way to the air.

Saint Bonifacius, MN(Zone 4a)

In the right season(dormancy) and the needed soil conditions, I don't see a problem with that. Woodies planted bare root will often do better, especial if the ground soil and the B&B soil differ greatly.

I've had problems before with just what you described. I've got heavy clay here and we barerooted a B&B to better ensure its survival.

Hey Leftwood, I just clicked on you and you're a newbie here! Welcome to you! I just love this steady influx of woody talent!

Illinois, IL(Zone 5b)

Good golly! I just got back home -- y'all have been busy!

I'm not at all interested in starting any other forum because I can barely keep up with this one. If creating other forums (fora? forae?) causes dillution of the talent here, I say heck with it. Just expand the subject limits slightly and post conifer stuff here -- conifers are trees and shrubs anyway.

Back to the original thread, I never strip foliage unless the transplant subhect is already into or approaching fall color, and usually not even then. There's sound advice from several people here about hydration, and I concur with it.

And as for root development, including root hairs, that is stimulated by hormones generated in the twigs via energy from leaf activity -- IMHO, stripping foliage would, if anything, inhibit root development, not enhance it.

Guy S.

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

The follow-up planting is as vital as the prep, delivery and planting. I always amend the hole with decent soil, build a small moat to keep the water in the area of the root ball and use transplanter fertilizer in the water to help improve rooting and lessen shock. http://www.veseys.com/store.cfm?product=965&CFID=8324721&CFTOKEN=44564157
I've had good results and I can't make mistakes on new installations for client satisfaction.

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

I attended a lecture on roots at the CENTS show by a Dr. from the USDA facility in Corvallis, OR. I was surprised that she recommended amending the backfill with some compost when transplanting b&b material. Her argument? The compost will be mostly used up before very long and the soil structure will not be seriously changed, and in the meantime the compost might just assist the plant through shock.

I'm not sure I agree, but food for thought.

As for pulling off foliage, I don't know. I think it is best to minimize the number of variables when we do something as profoundly unnatural to a plant as dig it up and move it somewhere else. The customary process has worked pretty good for a long time. There is a pattern of success. I say, stick with it. I'd be very interested in seeing this studied. Controlled, side by side, tests. But until someone comes out with startling, conclusive data, I'm not going to pull off leaves. I don't have that much time anyway.

Scott

Presque Isle, WI(Zone 3b)

Scott, I always worry when I add compost/leaf mold to tree holes because compost tends to disappear quickly and the tree sinks in the dug hole. I have cut back to less than a forth compost to soil taken from the hole in a mix back into the hole. Am I right, can a tree be planted too deep from loss of tilth? My problem is the amount of stones/rock coming out of the original hole. Ken

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Hi Guido, Growin, Kandelinthewind, and Recumbent; good thoughts and comments all.

For those straddling the fence on amending planting holes (or who slip while perched precariously with the resulting painful penalty), either:

DON'T mix anything into the hole and only add organic amendments to surface and allow soil fauna and natural weathering to incorporate its value, or

ONLY mix organic matter into the top 12" or so (till layer) of the disturbed soil (which should be three times the diameter of the rootball or root spread of what you are planting, to give the plant a great start in its new home). Use unamended soil to firm in around the base of the rootball for stability/orientation and then fill with unamended soil up to the level that you just can't stand it anymore and must make amendments or you will feel like a bad parent.

More important than amending or not is proper planting depth, alluded to by Ken/kandlmidd. If one doesn't recognize where the root flare at the base of a plant is (speaking of woody plants), then learn that or you may be doomed to unavoidably killing plants unbeknownst to you as to why. The root flare belongs at the finished soil surface level, or slightly above (if you wish) in very heavy poorly drained soils. If you've dug/disturbed soil below the rootball set at this level, then compact the soil under the rootball/plant well so that it doesn't settle out below your finished grade.

Anyone who wants to know more than a human should care to about roots and planting ought to invest in not one but TWO excellent texts:

The Landscape Below Ground by Dr. Gary Watson and Dr. Dan Neely 1993 (from a workshop at The Morton Arboretum; available through ISA)

Planting Trees and Shrubs by Dr. Gary Watson and E. B. Himelick 1997 (also from ISA)

I pretty much only add amendments to the surface of the soil, if that. Plants here need to outlive me, and there's a lot of acreage of heavy clay loam that they are going to have to root into sans help from me.

Illinois, IL(Zone 5b)

Excellent advice above from Viburnum (the one-legged) Vacuum!

Also, if you can amend the whole planting area, or mound it (prior to planting) with amended soil, go ahead. And if you have a stockpile of similar soil that's pre-crumbled, instead of backfilling with the soggy clods that came out of the hole, OK, use it. But do not place much, if any, compost or other organic matter into the hole, or substitute soil of different texture in the hole.

Guy S. (aka Guido)

Post a Reply to this Thread

Please or sign up to post.
BACK TO TOP