New Veggie Garden- zone 4 HELP!

I am totally new and I have several general questions-
This veggie garden stuff seems so cornfusing to newbies!
I already got my seeds from Johnny's - now I am tryin' to figure what to do when.
I am going (planning) to grow corn, pole beans, snap and reg. peas, carrots, zuchinni, cucumbers, tomatoes (staking), peppers, lettuce, onion plus pumpkins, cantelope watermelon, rasp. blueberries and strawberries and some herbs.
I've been reading some posts and surfing. I know first thing is to find out my frost date- do I want LAST frost or AVG. Last frost.?
I have found dates ranging from April 20 all the way to May 31???

I want to start as many things inside as possible- Is there anything on the list above that you recommend I DONT start inside?

Onions- I bought Frontier from Johnnys (storage onion) and it says 95 days. looks like starting them 8 wks before they go out- I also have some seeds from my mom-in- law- Maui onions (she bought the seeds- she's never grown them- but i have seen posts about day length etc- Will this affect my 95 days- what is a long day vs. short day?

Mounding? I have read here to (I think) mound up around corn (hills?) and carrots/ and pumpkins - what's this mean- is it just literally making a hill- I am using 4x12 raised beds.

Ok so some stuff says lite on the nitrogen, some stuff says use lime and potash. Which things add N2 and which add Phosphorus?

I dressed the beds with chicken house bedding last fall- I have heard you should not add it once plants are in- that it'll kill them- is that the case?

Thanks for any help you can provide.
Hill

You have several inquiries...here's a start.

!. Chicken manure is likely ok when put on in a reasonable amount the fall before...it is more "burning" than other types.

2.Long day onions are for northern areas...long summer days.

3.With raised beds mounding is not usually necessary. Mounding is to give good drainage and deeper soil.

4. Corn, beans, carrots, peas are normally better off planted outside.

5. Lettuce, carrots, and peas could be planted in April in your area. Corn, melons, zukes, pumpkins, beans some time in May.

I did not try to cover all the bases, but others will

That is long list, lets see if we chunk it up a bit. Most of the veggie you mention are warm season vegtables. We wiil divide into to two categories.
1. tolerant plants can't take a heavy frost but will grow some in cooler weather. These you can put on your average frost date. That list includes corn, summer squash, cucumbers, beans.
2. Plant that hate cool weather, tomatoes, watermelons, cantaloupes, peppers. Very frost sensitive and will not grow til the soil warms up. Plant on your last frost date.

cold weather vegetables, English peas, carrots. onions, you can put out as soon the ground thaws and gets dry enough to work.

"I want to start as many things inside as possible- Is there anything on the list above that you recommend I DONT start inside? " I prefer to direct seed beans and English peas. It takes quite a few plants and you don't relly gain anything by pre starting. Carrots also are tricky to transplant, break a tap root and you have strange forked carrots.

If you are using a raised bed, you have already made a hill. With corn and vining squash it sometimes helps to pull extra dirt around the base of the plant as they mature to give support from wind damage and insect attack.

Commercial fertizers will normally give N (nitrogen) P(Phosphorus) K (potassium) ratings. Composted manures normally sold will also give NPK ratings. The popular composted cow manure is O.5, 0.5, 0.5. Homemade compost will vary but fall in the same range. Chicken manure will be heavy on the nitrogen. Lime serves primarily to raise the pH of an acidic soil. Wood ash is a good source of potash as well as raising the soil pH.

Fresh chicken manure is hot and will kill plants if used in excess..

HI, I'm also in Zone 4a up in the mountains of Northern New York. Our last frost date is around June 1st on most calenders. I go by a New York State map published by Cornell which is very area-specific. Your state extension service may have a similar map. Even if they don't, the agents should be able to help you with a more realistic last frost date for your town.

Even with our June 1st date, this past year I had to cover most of the garden when frost was threatened on June 23rd, so my advice is to keep lots of materials around that can be used to cover tender plants in a hurry, even on the second day of summer.

At the end of the summer, with our first frost date of around Sept 10th (almost right on the money, this year) I keep a lot of plastic on hand to build season extenders. From a canoe/kayak dealer I get huge sheets of bubblewrap that the boats come wrapped in and I use it to cover mini A Frame greenhouses that cover some of my raised beds. The tomatoes, peppers and especially eggplants got more than another month of growing/ripening time this year thanks to them. Some other sheets I keep to pull over other low growing, tender crops. Make sure you get out early in the morning to remove them so your plants don't cook under the plastic.

So plan on keeping lots of plastic on hand for use early and late in the season. The joys of short-season gardening!

Wayne

epatz,
I see you are in the Minneapolis area. Although you are 4a for winter hardiness, once your semi-prairie area warms up, it tends to be warmer than 4a areas further east in the country. Hopefully you will have a half way decent growing season.

Bernie of Country Gardens user name is a little further south but raises watermelons. I suggest you D-Mail him for seasonal information.

Thank you all soo much!
I can't wait to get started!
I've been reading in the veggie forum trying to learn as much as possible. I plan on keeping track of everything I can-
I am soo looking forward to fresh corn and tomatoes!
I'll keep you all updated. I've got to figure out the photo feature too.
Lots of good advice!
One more question- if Potash and Lime RAISE PH - what do you use to LOWER it? Do you buy POTASH as POTASH at the store?? I think that blueberries and raspberries like low ph- right?
Thanks
Hill

Potash can be bought at some garden centers http://search.merrifieldgardencenter.com/Search.php?SearchHandle=DADBDADBDADADDDGGGDDDAGDGGDCDDDACNDIDIGBGGCNDEDAGFDHCNGBGDGDDBCNGBDJDJGFDIDEDCDGGFGBDADADADADADBDCDADADADGHAGPHEGBHDGIDADADADEDADADADADADADADBDFDADADADBDADADADADADADADADADADADADBDADADADADGHAGPHEGBHDGIDADADADBDB&Grid=1&PageSettings=0%2312%230%23%230%230&SpecialCases=0&Action=2&AnswerHandle=DCCDDCDGDCCDDDDDDJ for example. However it is best to use a balannce fertilizer which contains at least the three major plant nutrients. Rarely do you need to add Potash by itself. It is usually availably as neutral water soluble potassium salt. Wood ashes which will raise pH contains both potassium and Calcium hydoxides. It is the hydroxide ion which raises pH. Blue berries demand low pH. Easiest way to lower pH is to use something like green light soil acidifier available at most nurseries. This is ready mixed with directions. Elemental sulphur can also be used. I don't grow raspberries so you are on your own.

I am going to try to make some Mel's mix (the square foot gardening mix) for the first time, which contains organic fertilizer - bone meal, blood meal, and wood ashes. I guess the three of these together make it balanced.

I will need a whole cubic foot of wood ashes. I guess I will ask on Freecycle if anyone burns lots of wood. LOL

Cindy

Cindy be careful where you get the wood ash from some people burn all kinds of plastic bottles and garbage in their wood stoves contaminating the ash with metal and chemical residue.

Epatz corn can be started inside early and transplanted without a big problem and produces corn around here two weeks or even three early if done right. Much eaiser to direct seed though. I do it both ways but only start enough inside to get a taste early. Ernie

Hi epatz!
I'm zone 4a (just east of mpls 90 min) and doing a veggie garden for the first time also!
My hubby and I just bought a hobby farm and will be moving into it in March.
The previous owner has an already established 60 x 90 ft garden there, including a large 15yr old asperagus patch (yum!). I also have been reading like crazy to figure out what I'm suppose to do to prepare. Here are some great resources:

Fresh Market Vegetable Production Planting and Harvest Dates
(I add 14 days to these dates)
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/wihort/fruitveggies/HarvestDates.htm

Vegetable Publications
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/wihort/fruitveggies/VeggiePubs.htm
-Several of these are very helpful--including cultivar guidelines for our short season and ways to "extend" the season.

I also have some electronic documents (can't find the links) on companion planting. Can we send those through dmail? Would you like to see?

Here is the list of seeds I ordered. I know it is way too many plants but I am just a *little* excited about my new home.
Seeds Cultivars
Beans blue lagoon
Beans provider
Beans kentucky blue
Beans kentuckey wonder wax
Beets Early wonder tall top
Beets chiogga
Beets detroit dark red
Beets kestral
Beets lutz
Cabbage Early wakefeild
Cabbage Savory Ace
Carrots Bolero
Carrots Scarlet Nantes
Carrots Sweet rocket
Carrots Little finger
Carrots Kaleidoscope
Chard Bright Lights Mix
Cucumber Sweet Slice
Cucumber Northern Pickling
Lettuce Galisse
Lettuce Fireball
Lettuce Salad Bowl
Lettuce Dark Lollo Rossa
Lettuce Parris Island Cos
Onion set Mercury
Onion set Copra
Onion set Super Star
Onion greens Evergreen Hardy White
peas mammoth melting sugar (tall)
peas oregon sugar pod II (dwarf)
peas super sugar snap (tall)
spinach New Zealand
spinach Tyee
spinach Bordeau
spinach baby's leaf
corn Early and Often
corn Kandy Plus (SE)
Broccoli Packman
pumpkin wee be little
pumpkin Jack-o-lantern
pumpkin prizewinner
Squash Buttercup
Squash Walthum
watermelon Little baby flower
watermelon Farmers Wonderful

I also have a list of plants that I will be buying including: broccoli, cauliflower, celery, tomato, peppers, and potatos.

Hope you find those resources useful!
Anna

Wow Anna- You are going to town for a first timer.
I will check out the links when I get home- (workin' now)
What a variety. I am sticking with one variety of most things this year. I also bought a book- Gardening by the Month in Minnesota- which has alot of helpful infomation too.
I can't wait.
I have to ask my husband about D-mail -I dont know how to use it at all.

Thanks for the info! I'll stay tuned for updates.
Hill

I'm about 200 miles NW of you.

You might want to be careful about the fertilizer and soil additives in general.

New gardeners sometimes read too many books written by authors from the east. It would be easy to assume after reading the books that we won't be able to grow anything unless we dump a bunch of lime in our soil. Very few things need lime here. Most areas of the upper Midwest have a fairly balanced soil. As a beginner your best bet is likely to not mess with chemistry (soil PH).

Unless you are in a new housing development with a 1 inch layer of black dirt and 50 inches of clay backfill, you might not need any fertilizer at all when you start out. It seems to me from my visits to commercial tree growers in your general area that the soil was quite nice to work with. It is a fairly rich black sandy loam, right?

Fertilizing your tomatoes will likely result in plants the size of small trees with very few fruits. (Too much nitrogen.) When newbies ask about fertilizing, I always tell them the best thing they can do is quit dumping on the Miracle chemicals and just get compost from the local landfill (if it is available...yes, I know it is not probably as organic as we'd all like to think either).

Here's another northener tip: Anything considered a warm season crop that would be seeded in the ground (examples: summer squash, pole beans, cucumbers) can be started in a paper dixie cup or a peat pot about two weeks before you will plant outside. The idea is just to give them a jump on germination. Be PATIENT! It is very hard to do. You see everyone scrambling around to the garden centers and planting these beautiful plants outside...it must be time right? Wrong! It is too early. Until you could take your pants off and sit bare-butted on the ground, it is not warm enough yet for most warm season crops. (I'm not suggesting that you do that, it is just an example.)

Thanks, epatz. I shouldn't say that I am totally new to veggie gardening--my mom planted a big veggie garden when I was a kid. I remember picking the veggies just before dinner and putting grass clippings between the veggie rows.
Also, although this is my (own) first veggie garden, I've been doing perennial gardening for a few years at my current home.

I totally agree with jefe about soil and fertilizing. I did find some deficiencies in my soil--but amended properly based on exactly what the deficiencies were. Compost is the best thing you can do for any/all your gardens.

I have a question for Jefe, however, about the "warm enough for bare butt" :) comment. Have you ever used the season extenders, like th wall-o-water or synthetic mulch, or just a row cover?

Does it really make a difference?
Thanks

hobbygirl,

You wrote:
"I have a question for Jefe, however, about the "warm enough for bare butt" :) comment. Have you ever used the season extenders, like th wall-o-water or synthetic mulch, or just a row cover?"

Wall-o-water (WOW)
Many folks use the wall-o-water to give plants the help they need to survive. They seem to get very good reports. The main reason I don’t use them is cost. I grew 322 tomato plants last year. (No, I’m not a commercial grower. It is just a hobby.) I gave about 120 plants away as gifts. I lost another 50+ to experimentation. That still left a whole lot of tomatoes to plant. Plus, my wife grew over 200 pepper plants. I would have gone broke buying WOWs (wall-o-waters).

The other reason I don’t use the WOW system is that I just don’t believe it is that effective at raising temperature in the root zone. If you were to probe the soil temperature (root zone) inside and outside the wall-o-water, would there be a great amount of difference? The concept works well to help plants survive if a frost hits. I just don't see that it does a whole lot for the soil temperature. I use much more cost-effective methods for frost protection.

Synthetic mulch…
I have never and will never use it. Why? Basically, I grow my garden to enjoy natural things in a natural setting. To my eye synthetic mulch is hideous. Red plastics, black plastics…plastic, plastic, plastic…don’t we have enough plastic around us already?

Floating row covers do help to keep temperatures higher and more stable once the ground temperature is up to temperature…bare-butt temperature ;-).

So what is the most economical and easiest solution? Patience. Let the sun do its job.

As an example, last year I gave a good friend 20 tomato plants about May 15th. I told him to wait two weeks to plant them in the ground. Later, he came to my place and asked why my plants were twice as big as his plants. Were they a different variety? Did I use different fertilizer? No. None of the above. He planted his plants the very next day. I waited two weeks. He stunted them when he put them in the cold soil, and it took them weeks to recover.

Maxima enim morum semper patientia virtus. (Patience is the greatest virtue.)

appro

I agree with setting out the plants at a time appropriate to use the cycles of nature but if it is the difference between gettting a crop or no crop, I will use plastic as required. Last years garden was my first in zone 4A which often seems more like 3, perhaps because of the elevation. (June 23, it was 33 degrees.)

Like JefeQuicktech, I also set out warm weather plants about June 1st, but the ground really didn't warm up fast enough to get my peppers and, especially eggplants off to a good start. They perked up when I realized their feet were cold under the spoiled hay mulch. I pulled it off and let the sun hit the bare soil. That, of course, then allowed weeds to grow. I got a decent harvest of eggplant, but it came under my bubblewrap tents after frost due to the slow start.

Asthetics aside, this year, the heat-loving crops will get mulched with heavy black plastic cut into strips. The strips are to allow removal when the temps are sufficiently warm to maintain a good soil temp. At that point, I pull the plastic strips and lay down a thick organic mulch for the rest of the season. I'd rather look at the plastic for a while for the sake of having a harvest.

Wayne

I too like some IRT plastic mulch for melons.....If I lived in Texas, I might not even think about it. But with 3 x 4 foots pieces of IRT my watermelon harvest for some of the full sized watermelons started in late July. Plastic helps also let me get some small watermelons in early July. I like my homegrown watermelon very much and like having a long and also early season for tjhem.

I like the "bare butt" test, it put it into context everyone can understand.