Birch trees anyone?

I've been researching some birch trees. Particularly looking at Betula Crimson Frost and B. jacquemontii. (Or at least I'm close on those names.) I've also researched those borers and other pests we might have around here.

I can't seem to find much information regarding which species have the peeling bark and which don't do it as much. In some of the pictures the peeling is pretty drastic, and in some of the birches I've seen around here there's no sign of it. Also, how messy are they to have in the yard? Large quantities of leaves? What about other droppings? Is peeling bark messy?

Edited to say I'm fond of the ones with white bark. I like the foliage on just about all varieties no matter what color it is.

This message was edited Jan 12, 2006 10:44 PM

IMHO the best peelers probably are Betula nigra, B. alleghaniensis, and B. davurica. Those rank in descending order regarding resistance to bronze borer. The peeling bark is not a litter issue because it loosens but hangs on, eventually falling in very small, paper-thin pieces.

If you have white-barked birches there that don't exhibit much peeling, they probably are either B. populifolia (somewhat borer resistant) or B. pendula (borer candy). There are others, but not commonly seen in Midwest landscapes.

Have you considered aspens?

Guy S.

Peeling bark is very attractive and isn't messy at all. I don't have any experience with Betula Crimson Frost but the B. jacquemontii is extremely susceptible to Agrilus anxius. I've got some photos somewhere of little tiny exit holes shaped like Ds somewhere if you'd like to see what they look like or you can just go on line and type bronze birch borer D and that should yield a plethora of images.

I think the big problem with these trees is that people try to use them as specimens. They need full sun and they need lots of water or they will stress. The Clump River Birch seems to be more tolerant of less than desirable sighting and it is bronze birch borer resistant. It has that wonderful peeling bark that most people like too.

We've got B. jacquemontii in this area and it's a very nice specimen in a landscape but I've read somewhere it doesn't like too much summer heat. It's considered a first class choice for upscale landscapes and performs well with our cool summers. Chinese Red Birch (Betula albo-sinensis) has interesting coloured bark that varies with pinks, reds, peach and seems to glow in sun.

Wow! I posted my questions because you folks are a wealth of info and just proved it again. Guy, aspens never crossed my mind because I equate them with Colorado and haven't seen any around here. I wonder why.... Used to live in Colorado myself and love aspens.

Equilib, we've got LOTS of sun, which is part of the reason for planting some faster-growing trees. My understanding was I'd get some faster growth with birch as opposed to some others. I'll need to check out jacquemontti a little further, growin, as from what you say it might be too hot here.

Thank you again everyone for the info, ideas, and answers to my "messy" questions.

This message was edited Jan 13, 2006 11:04 PM

Growin is a lucky man, he's zone 8 and that's fringe for most Birch based on my experience but then growin is a veteran and I am not. You should be fine with Birch in zone 5 and the jacquemontii should do fine where you are unless... there are Birch in the area that are infected. The Agrilus anxius will seek out your jacquemontti and destroy it. I've tried 5 of these jacquemontti (I lusted for them because of the bright white bark) and so far every last one has gone down yet my nigra are still standing and no evidence what so ever of Agrilus anxius activity. I guess maybe you might want to check around your neighborhood. If you see landscapers out and about removing upper branches of Birch that never leafed out or are dying back, ask the homeowner if you can take a peek at the bark. If you see any little D shaped holes, chances are pretty good Agrilus anxius is out and about and looking for hosts. I don't know squat about albo-sinensis but I liked the way growin described the coloration in the bark.

The Aspen is a great idea. Never thought of that. Guess I was in Birch mode. Beautiful photo Guy. Actually, all of your photos of trees are awesome.

McGlory, if Southeast NE means the Lincoln Nebraska area, as I assume it does, you might want to try to find bigtooth aspen instead of quaking if you go the aspen route. It's tougher under the continental summer conditions found in the Great Plains. But neither one is subject to birch borer, which is a real plus.

Equil, Growin's zone 8 out there in Shangri-La (Vancouver!) is a far cry from zone 8 in the Midwest or Southeast. He can grow everything out there, while most birches won't last a decade in the eastern version of zone 8 because of the summer weather that the zone system does not address (unless you include the AHS summer zone map).

The two birches that are doing very well for me here in Continental zone 5 are Betula nigra and B. uber. We also have a couple of B. papyrifera that are not (yet) infested with borers, and some small B. lenta, B. populifolia, and B. alleghaniensis. We nurse a couple of others along, trimming out stems with borers every few of years.

There is a selection of native B. papyrifera from the Niobrara Valley there in Nebraska that you should seek out if possible -- ask the folks at the Nebraska Statewide Arboretum office for leads. Other than those mentioned here, I would not plant a birch in Nebraska that I could not afford to lose.

Guy S.

About 15 years ago I bought 20 birch seedlings, no name. They were planted in a long row along my property line. They did fine for a while, then the leaf minors found them. About 5 years ago the Borers got into them. There is only one left and it is the 'left over' one I planted at the end of my driveway. It is doing great with rain run off from the drive.
I suspect a lack of water did my others in.
They are not very messy (until they start to die). They do have seed/pollen pods that look unsightly when they drop on flowers beds, for 10 days in Spring.
Small leaves are easy to clean up in the Fall.
I'll be planting a locally grown 'clump' birch this Spring.
Andy P

Here's a pic of the Betula albo-sinensis I mentioned. It wasn't very sunny so the colour didn't come out very well.

Another pic

Andy - What do you mean by a 'clump' birch?

growin - Thanks for the great photo!

Guy - Very odd you should mention Niobrara Valley. I grew up near there, and maybe some ranchers that were friends of my dad's could spare a tree or two. I am going to contact the arboretum though.

Still thinking about aspens too. So MUCH to consider!

MG, I may have the wrong name but it is one that grows with multiple trunks.
They are fairly popular around here.
Andy P

I think clump just means three or so trunks instead of one. I've read somewhere that you can actually plant three trees together to form this type of plant. Personally, I believe three trunks are more attractive than just one. I also think the European birches are the most beautiful, with Heritage River Birch coming in a close second. Aspens are quite beautiful, too.

Birches that do well in this area are mostly the Heritage type, with beautiful peeling bark, except it is brown instead of white. These are now starting to mature here and are a spectacular sight. Most people had to start planting the river Birches because the white birches were more susceptible to borer attacks.

I don't mean to be un-organic here, but aren't there borer treatments that are given once a year to prevent attack?

Growin, Your B. albo-sinense is cool, and I want it, but I want the cool blue pickup truck in the background even more.

Guy, I'll be curious regarding your luck on B. lenta and B. alleghaniensis. Not familiar with B. uber or B. davurica, except that I think B. davurica got mentioned in a book I got for Christmas called, Plants From the Edge of the World. Is that B. davurica from Korea, by chance?

To All, Here in SW Ohio, a very wild and unstable zone six, Betula nigra tends to do well, although at times chlorotic. The borers don't ever seem to find it. Also, whole neighborhoods have been planted with Betulis platyphylla "Whitespire" with--so far--impunity. Some of these trees I know for a fact are 25 years old.

I also see the occassional B. jacquemontii in nurseries, along with "Reflection," "Crimson Frost," and "Royal Frost." I don't know if these are being sold out of ignorance or because these nurseries know something that I don't know. I'd love to grow any one of them, but for now I'm waiting for more proof that they are borer resistant.

Scott

Decumbent, thanks for the complements of my new 58 Chevy Apache pickup. I also have it in my Monkey Puzzle Tree pics. The B. albo-sinensis in my pics were a bit dull as it was getting dark and they are older specimens. I still think it's a unique tree.

I haven't figured out how to post pics on this forum yet, but here are a few B. davurica pictures I took last summer at the U of Minnesota arb.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/maackia/Woody%20Stuff/Deciduous%20Trees/HPIM1634.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/maackia/Woody%20Stuff/Deciduous%20Trees/HPIM1635.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/maackia/Woody%20Stuff/Deciduous%20Trees/HPIM1636.jpg

I know, the above posting really doesn't make sense. I guess what I should have said is that I haven't figured out how to imbed them into the post like I was able to do on that "other" forum.

Maackia, you can post them directly from your hard drive without using a host site like Photobucket! Just do the "browse" button at the bottom, find the image file you want, and select it. Wait a minute or so for it to upload, and you're done.

Scott, B. davurica has some of the best peeling bark in the birch business, but borers get it badly. It is from East Asia, but I don't recall exactly where.

Guy S.

StarhillForest- Do you know if there are treatments to protect a tree from borers?

Yes, there are, but they can involve some pretty deadly stuff and they must be done every year. The old remedy used to be banding the trunks with Cygon straight out of the bottle (!), but now there are a few other sprays you can use in diluted (safer) form. Still, the best treatment is to plant the right species in the right place, water when needed, mulch the roots, and hope for the best.

Guy S.

This message was edited Jan 18, 2006 8:32 PM

When I purchased my house I inherited a Betula pendula planted in full sun zone 7. It has looked a little worse every year...the cicadas of 2004 did not help. Last year it looked terrible due to leaf miners. Last year I mulched around the base, gave it a drink from the soaker hoses every few weeks and in the fall I gave it a shot of "Bayer Advanced Tree & Shrub Insect Control". I am interested to see how it looks this spring. A bit high maintenance, but birches can be such pretty trees.

- Brent

Even a foliar spray of an appropriately chosen chemical just seems to stave off the inevitable. Probably best to choose a species that is resistent then meet its cultural requirements... or suffer my fate and lose one after the next and when you go to sleep at night, instead of counting sheep jumping over a fence you can count $$$ jumping out of your wallet.

I got a line on some aspens and think I'm going to go that route. Someone who lives near me has an entire grove and would sell me some good-sized (I think he said 4-5" trunks) for $10 a tree if I come get them. I have access to a Bobcat and DH says two men, a boy and a Bobcat ought to do it. It's exciting! Seems like a good investment since I only want 3 trees.

Great info here, thank you all.
Anyone want to take a shot with these two Q's...

Regarding root systems for both Birch and Aspen... Any problems with plumbing pipes?

How close to a house foundation is safe for either of them?

Thanks in advance,
Annie

Amazing, aspen as a clump. Up here we see it "managed" as a monoculture because it is a preferred "paper" tree. My old ones are slowly dying or being tipped by strong winds. New growth being discourged by deer here because they share the forest with other species. Where they are mono they just grow too fast for the deer to keep up. FYI, DNR estimates deer density here at 50/sq mile. I think that figure is low. Took a mature single down approx. 80' high located within 20' of house 2yrs ago. It was just too big and too close. For distances of 25' in all directions it is suckering from roots close to the surface. I don't know but I see aspen, as a yard tree, developing headaches for the home owner, abiet different ones, as quicky as a "questionable" birch selection.

50 deer per square mile sounds very high to me. I wonder how in the world even that many deer could bring down an 80' tree though. Maybe they solicited the help of a beaver. Normally, deer and beavers don't cooperate with each other too well, but, as we all know, a hungry deer is a desparate deer and usually willing to cut a deal.

Scott

Scott you are too funny. I continually fight deer, but i don't think that many. Didn't shut my gate last night as it was snowing hard and didn't want to walk out that far. Snowed about 5" of heavy wet snow during the night. Now this morning raining hard and of course melting the snow., but that's fine. We just need the moisture here in NE Wash. I live on a hill and no problem with flooding. My youngest son lives about 20 miles east of Tacoma, WA and all the area has had too much rain. He lives above a private lake but high enough not to have flooding .

DonnaS

I have three Betula jacquemonti birch, planted in a triangle about 5 feet from each other. They are 3 years old this year.

One Betula 'Crimson Frost' 3 yrs planted in my woodland garden.

Two Paper bark Birch volunteers from my P. bark clump, planted on the bank with my windbreak trees.

The Paper Bark Birch clump is 11 yrs. old this year.

My personal favorite is the 10 yr. old Betula nigra Heritage Birch.

Also have a 11 yr. (this yeart) Betula youngii pendula. I got so disgusted with the way it was growing hundreds of whippy weeping branches , completely shading the bulbs and other plants under it that I tried to kill it off by cutting off every limb my pruners would cut and even using a pruning saw for larger ones. That was 3 years ago. Again growing like crazy, sent up to upright branches last year that grew about 6 feet tall from center of tree. If it weren't raining so hard I would go out and take a photo. Very persistant tree.

DonnaS

50 deer per mile is about average here in the Midwest, with some stricken areas having more than three times that density. A reasonable, sustainable heard in this area of the world is around 10 per mile. I'd prefer 1 per mile, with each mile fenced off so the darned thing would be unable to find a mate and make babies! And it needs to be a female so it won't rub stuff.

Doesn't speak very well for the "professional" agencies that manage deer. As long as hunters are happy, they don't seem to care.

Guy S.

The total estimated economic impact of the nine day gun deer hunt in Wisconsin is around $600 million. That kind of money in a state this size does tend to influence politics. While many are quick to criticize the DNR for an out-of-control deer population, hunters preferance for shooting bucks is a much larger problem in my opinion. Shooting a buck is apparently a testament to one's manhood. I overheard the conversation of a couple of hunters where they were talking about another hunter and said "he's almost 30 and he just got his first buck." That's the kind of mentality we're dealing with. A disturbing trend (at least to the DNR and some politicians) is a decline in annual deer gun hunt license sales. It seems that fewer young people are getting into the deer gun hunt thing. So what have our enlightened pols come up with? Yup, lower the legal age one can carry a rifle to 8! That's not a typo. These geniuses are proposing that 8 year olds be allowed to tote a high caliber rifle around the woods. I'd much rather see wolves roaming the woods than 8 year olds with guns. But hey, I'm just a liberal weeney.

Maackia- I'm right with you on this one. Guess I'm a liberal weenie too.

I'd prefer to think of myself as a liberal, but not a weenie. I have never understood this thing about killing a buck...except, that, truthfully, the antlers are kind of cool.

If I had a lot of land, and hunters asked to hunt on it, I would give them a big hug, offer them valuable gifts, and even bring them hot coffee, but, I would also tell them to kill does. Whatever the limit is, I'd want a decent doe to buck ratio taken, with a bonus check for any pregnant does killed!

Or maybe I'm a weenie, but not a liberal. I dunno. I hope I'm not a weenie.

Scott

I want the bucks killed first. I know that's short-term thinking, but it's the bucks that do most of the damage, and we have so many surplus deer here that it would take a lifetime to thin down the does enough to matter much. I no longer have a lifetime to wait.

I don't hunt. I don't enjoy killing things, and don't fully understand the mentality of those who do. I don't enjoy picking up garbage or cleaning septic tanks either. I'm glad there are people willing to do all those distasteful things for me. But I hope they're more than 8 years old -- chronologically AND mentally!

As far as economic impacts go -- if you add up all the deer-related auto accidents, nursery stock damage, Christmas trees and crops lost, natural area damage, landscape damage, etc., I doubt that the nimrod-spending factor would break even.

Now for the coop-day-grass: The micro-managing former director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources was (and I'm not making this up) pushing for the introduction of Rocky Mountain Elk into Illinois a few years ago!!! Thank Gawd we sent him to Wyoming before he could get it done. (He didn't last very long out there, either.)

Guy S.

Darn you Guy, I've always wanted to use Nimrod in a sentence, and now you've beat me to it. I agree that there is nothing more dishearting than a "buck rub", however the only way to truely get the numbers down is to take the does first. "Earn-a-buck" programs where you have to take a doe and register her in order to tag a buck will work, but the hunters don't like the program for "macho" reasons mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, our greatest problem locally is with the "bambi at home" contingent who buy literally tons of corn, alfalfa pellets, and even mineral fortified feeds and feed these wild animals year around. The last bad winter with depth of snow and lasting cold, a natural culling tool, was overcome by a "grass roots" campaign to save the deer: in which people actually hauled hay and grain to starving animals. We are loosing our forest understory here, nothing new coming up to replace "blowdowns" and trees dieing a natural death. The numbers of car/deer incidents are beyond belief. Well over 30,000 for the state, a local realtor had four in one month, and I had two last year. Imagine driving at dusk and realizing that the odds are pretty good that something is going to cross your path. It's like some weird video game.

This message was edited Jan 31, 2006 8:06 AM

I used to have pleasant dreams that every deer-related car accident would involve the director of DNR, or some politicians and insurance executives. Just think how quickly our deer problems would be solved! And we only have about 20,000/year here in Illinois, not 30,000 like you guys.

I know taking does is the long term answer, but for the next decade or two we just couldn't take enough of them to make a dent and I want to protect my trees immediately. So that's why I encourage our own hunters to take bucks. The bigger the better, the more the better. And if they lose a few mortally wounded ones and have to take replacements, that's great too. The real long-term solution might be to raise the quota, to about 30 deer per hunter, and let them blast away.

Guy S.

We have a modest return of a natural predator here: the wolf. Each one eats 16 deer per year. The hunting folks are alarmed at this number and want to take the wolf off the endangered list. I think we could make a start by allowing open season on does, at least on your own property. Put them in the freezer, but I guess that would alarm the "beef" lobby.

Just to aggravate Guy further, I think the DNR should have a temporary "does only " policy until the numbers get down to where they should be. I'm not sure why you're bringing insurance people into this, we're the one's paying the claims. Do you really think we like to see an out-of-control deer population?

Here's something I wrote a while ago-

"Deer populations are out of control in many areas of our State and culling is desperately needed to reduce their numbers to that which would insure their health, our land's health, and our health. Deer just don't have any natural predators left other than vehicles and what with chronic wasting disease, some hunters aren't even that interested in them any longer. In the long run, it might not be in the best interests of the deer, and definitely not for native plants, for humans to intervene with anything from the local feedstore. I am told deer are now determining what species live or die and have read many articles substantiating this definitively. So sad that we have reduced their habitat and that we collectively have not diligently and conscientiously removed invasive non native exotics that out compete native flora from the habitat that does remain. It is sort of a vicious circle... the deer mow down the native plants that they can digest and that makes way for invasives to get an even stronger foothold which further degrades our land. We have done this to the deer and the deer in return are wiping out other species of flora and fauna. We can all "indirectly" feed the deer and nurse our lands back to health or at least restore some semblance of balance which we are sorely lacking... there are just more ways than tossing out feed and a salt block to do so."

"The deer damage results in a reduced structure and quality of woodland which has a direct impact on the number of small mammals and birds in the area that rely upon the vegetation for food. English House sparrows, European starlings, cane toads, feral and stray cats, and many others are also negatively impacting the environment. Over time, extinction for many species of animal and plant will be inevitable."

"Deer are selective browsers and their diet varies from season to season prohibiting natural regeneration of our lands. Density reports I have read state that deer populations are 10x the numbers that could insure the restoration of balance requisite to support native species of flora and fauna to include deer. Deer populations have exploded to the point that they, and they alone, are now determining which species of flora and fauna survive."
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/website/PDF.nsf/pdf/fcin35.pdf/$FILE/fcin35.pdf
A few noteworthy concepts-
1) Deer browsing sets the stage for increases in exotic plant populations—like purple loosestrife and wild mustard—“by creating desirable conditions through disturbance and the transportation of seeds to uninfested areas"
2) Birds depend on lower canopy or ground level nesting habitats which are currently under siege by deer. Birds are left vulnerable to predators when they have no option other than to select alternate nesting areas.
3) Small mammals and birds are being outcompeted to the brink of extinction by deer for food like acorns. The Blue Jay that sustains itself at my bird feeder comes to mind as the deer have eaten all the small acorns that were a major portion of his diet.
4) Many butterflies survive exclusively on plant materials being obliterated by deer.
5) Deer fecal matter is beginning to contaminate surface water supplies.
6) Many deer starve to death over the winters because their habitat requirements are no longer able to be met even at the expense of other flora and fauna.

When deer wipe out vegetation, along with that vegetation goes many insects that small mammals, birds, and reptiles depend upon for survival. Deer are voracious consumers of native vegetation. When they browse to the point that invasives take over or to the point that an area looks like a park, this should be a clue that we need to take a more aggressive approach to controlling their numbers. All species of life need food, water, shelter, and space. Deer are systematically destroying native species and the last time I checked… I saw no way to make deer want to eat buckthorn berries, phragmites, burning bushes, honeysuckle, reed canary grass, or any of the other exotic invasives that we have allowed to scourge our lands. Bottom line is that wildlife can’t survive unless their habitat requirements are met. If the deer keep wiping out the habitat… what’s going to be left to sustain other species to include their own. There will be no diversity left.

Damage to expensive landscaping, exposure to Lyme disease, and auto collisions are really insignificant in the larger scheme of things. If hundreds of thousands of deer are not eradicated and if we don't start addressing the exotic/invasive issue wholeheartedly, I suspect we are in for children and grandchildren who really will be viewing many species of flora and fauna from picture books."

Since writing this I have learned of research out there suggesting deer are evolving into grazers which may be contributing to the population explosion. Evidently, deer graze more in some parts of the country than they browse. Impregnated does get enough nutrition to carry all of their fetuses to full term by grazing wherein the past, only one would survive full term. Not good folks given our winters have been unseasonably warm as of late.

Introducing large predators most probably won't work as too many people grew up fearing The Big Bad Wolf and the thought of all the outdoor Fluffies being used as dietary supplements may not sit well with some. Oral contraceptives added to feed would be an affordable "quick fix" but long term consequences would not be in the best interests of public health. I believe it is time to lift the ban on venison being sold as a commodity. To the best of my knowledge, deer being culled here in Illinois are already being used to supply food pantries and soup lines. Why not expand upon that.

You know, if a rancher brought his flock of sheep or herd of cattle through our yards and greenspaces and allowed them to eat everything in sight, there'd be hell to pay. We'd be holding someone accountable. We'd have politician's heads on plates. But because these are deer, and because Walt Disney made that cartoon, the issue is lost.

Scott