Asexual propagation of a Maple tree

Hello there,

I would like to take a cutting or somehow propagate a particular Maple tree and was wondering if anyone could help me out on how-to? I have taken a rooted cuttings of non-woody plants but never somehting like a Maple tree.

Thanks
Wolf

Most maples cannot be rooted from cuttings, rather, they are grafted. You would need to know the species to be sure. Some may be rooted from semi-hardwood cuttings in July-August. I don't think they take to dormant hardwood cuttings.

We've had somewhat different experiences with native Maples around here. Granted the success rate with germinating them from seed is considerably higher than attempting to root cuttings but there are those who have had success. Does anyone have a copy of Dirr's “The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation” who would be able to shed some light on his take on the process by sharing what he has written with this new member?

editing to note that I had an incomplete thought up above. I should have typed attempting to root (verb) hardwood cuttings rather than just having typed root cuttings with the assumption having been that I was referring to rooting hardwood cuttings. To the best of my knowledge, our native maples can't be asexually reproduced from actual root cuttings. They can be asexually reproduced by hardwood cuttings albeit the success rate isn't the greatest..




This message was edited Oct 24, 2005 6:16 PM

Some can indeed be taken from root cuttings, but I was referring to stem cuttings. Our native mountain maple can be grown from root cuttings but it is more shrub-like than a tree. I assumed Wolf was referring to the more standard-type maples.

Hi, I have that particular book. Not knowing which Maple your asking about would make it too hard. Sugar Maple, Red Maple?
There are 7 pages of Acers (Maples) in this book.

Is there a reason you need to propagate it asexually, instead of by seed? Maybe it's a male, or has some special feature? We've propagated red maple by layering, and most maples can be done by budding in late summer. But you do need to know what species you're dealing with first.

Hey Shortleaf, I didn't know you were over here! I last saw you on that "other" forum -- the one that's driving everyone away with all the ads and spyware! That's where Mike and I started also. I hope more of those folks find us over here at DG.

Guy S.

This message was edited Oct 23, 2005 10:36 PM

Hi Guy,

I started just recently as a subscriber. I found out I also have an id here just as "shortleaf". Hehe, I made that name a while back just to make that entry about Starhill in the Garden Watchdog. Its funny, when I signed up recently I entered the name "shortleaf", and it said it was already taken. I thought, "now who would want that name?", it just hit me today that it was me from almost 2 years ago. I looked up that entry in the watchdog and then I remembered! It isn't like this id., it was one of those free ones that can't participate in forums.
Yeah, the ads over there are pretty nuts. Just having dial-up is slow enuff, I am always waiting for and closing ads over there. It wouldn't surprise me if that "other forum" were tracking some folks with spyware to track them and what not.
I'll probably be in this computer forum quite a bit too.


Talk to ya later,

Will

p.s. I'll send you a D Mail, my very first D Mail even!



This message was edited Oct 23, 2005 4:48 PM

Geeze, you tree experts who literally wrote the books are gonna make the neophyte come out of the closet and post her thoughts on asexual propagation of maples? Something is fundamentally wrong when the "student" starts posting responses but perhaps this will get you all to comment.

Here's a scaled down version of what I had typed-

You should be able to asexually propagate a maple tree. There is a book out there by Dr. Dirr titled "The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation" that should cover exactly how to go about doing this but I don't own the book and would have to go to the library to get it. I want the book but it's really expensive. There is a forum at Dave's Garden called Trees and Shrubs. You might want to ask if any of them knows how Michael Dirr suggests that a cutting be handled. He would be the ultimate authority in my opinion. It may be just as simple as taking the right size cutting at the right time of year, dipping it in a rooting hormone, and then placing it in the right medium. You are probably going to have to do quite a few because asexual propagation is generally not as successful as germinating from seed. I've done it a few times before with mixed results. Some rooted and some rotted and there was no in between. Maple is going to fall into the category of hardwood so I'll take a guess here that you are going to want to take a cutting at the very end of winter, maybe February or March. You'll want a cutting of the most current year's growth so the cutting should probably only be about 4-5" long and then dipped in any product like Rootone. I'd stick a few cuttings in a sand/peat mix and others in a sawdust compost mix to play around with achieving high aeration. What ever medium you use you really need to nuke it in your microwave on high and then mix it up and nuke it again. Try placing a few on your window sill inside, a few on your porch or patio in a shaded area or an area that gets minimal exposure to avoid leaf scorch of any new leaves the first few years, and a few right into the ground and see what happens. Oh yes, you can use coffee cans or cut off milk jugs or anything to pot them up. I'm much better with seed germination than woody cuttings or grafts. Just out of curiosity, what traits does the tree have that make it special in your eyes to the extent you would want a clone? Did one of your grandparents plant that tree many years
ago?

OK big boys, rip away. By the way, I was able to root a few this way. I maybe got 3 out of 30 to root. 10% isn't bad but it certainly isn't the greatest. I still have them. North American Maples germinate like crazy from seed so I have no idea what possessed me to experiment with Sugar and Swamp Maples but a neighbor up the road was playing around with dormant hard wood cuttings and grafts so we were having a friendly competition. I lost in the grafts but won in the dormant hard wood cuttings bu dipping in Rootone and planting my "sticks" in coffee cans out on the porch. I might have had a higher root rate but almost all of the ones I planted out direct in the woods were browsed and the three I had on my window sill met their demise when a cat got up there and chewed on them. I have played a little bit with budding and wasn't successful (looks as if I played at the wrong time of year) and I haven't really played much with layering but I'd like to. Maybe next year.

Oh yaa, Will... gimme your Dirr book! I've been wanting that for a while. I actually had it once but loaned it out and can't remember who borrowed it so now I know darn well that the minute I replace it, the person who borrowed it will run across it and remember it is mine. That same person borrowed another book that will be hard to replace. He/she borrowed my out of print second edition of Establishment and Maintenance of Landscape Plants. Now that's a real bummer isn't it? Here's hoping I wrote my name inside the covers but doubtful.

Yes, in all my ventures and attempts at growing something from seed, getting germination info., time of year info. for collecting and other related issues that book has really been a good answer-book and tool.

I'm by far an expert, but when one can own such sources like that, they are invaluable tools, written by the experts.

The Dirr book was an expensive one, I kind of struggled with its price ($66), but the amount of info. in it has made me a believer since, I'm glad I got it.

Will

Ever think about air layering? Here's an informative treatise on the subject.
http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/newtown_square/publications/research_papers/pdfs/scanned/rp42.pdf

Wolf, do you know what kind of a maple you have? If not, can you post a photo of the leaves?

Yes Will, I miss my Dirr book very much.

Looks as if my rooted cuttings won't make it to next spring. Bummer. The air layering is something I've always wanted to try. This is sort of exciting to me. Bob, have you ever tried it before? Just curious.

I have been having difficulty with Cladastris kentukea, Chionanthus virginicus, and Halesia carolina. Do you think air layering would be a viable option for any of these three?

I've only tried it on Azaleas, Equilibrium, and it works very well. Why not give it try yourself next growing season. I hope you're successful, especially on the C. virginicus. What a beautiful tree!

I did some looking at my particular Maple tree and of some pictures online. And it is my belief that it is a Sugar maple Acer saccharinum. I hope that helps.

This tree is of particular importance to me, and I would love to have a genetic clone of the particular tree to grow in my yard.

Thanks
Wolf

Wolf, you might have a sugar maple (actually Acer saccharum) or a silver maple (Acer saccharinum). Either way, it can be grown easily from seed. Having a direct offspring from a special tree can be as significant as having a clone, and could be better in the long run (seedlings develop natural, symmetrical root systems, don't have problems with graft incompatibility, etc.) So I urge you to consider that since you're not experienced with asexual propagation.

Silver maple sheds its seeds in late spring, while sugar maple sheds them in autumn -- that will tell you which one you have, if it's one or the other.

Guy S.

I don't have my Dirr Reference Manual but I found my Dirr "Manual of Woody Landscape Plants". On page 56 I found a small blurb on propagation for this species. It states, "cuttings collected in early June and treated with 1000 ppm IBA-talc rooted 57%; not considered easy to root from cuttings; all cultivars are budded on seedling understocks." 57% ain't atall bad! Blows my lousy 10% out of the water.

I pulled out my Ken Druse book on "Making More Plants" and it has a very nice description with photographs illustrating the air layering process step by step mentioned by Guy earlier in this thread. I can go to a library and copy those pages off in full color. The link from raisedbedbob was very informative but the photos were black and white and didn't really illustrate the process all that well as they weren't all that clear.

I found this really great book in my library titled "Native Trees For North American Landscapes" that described Sugar Maples to a "T" and indicated they were the "standard by which all other trees were measured in fall". And the author also stated that "any sugar maple can outperform almost any other tree for fall color, considering duration and intensity combined". I would agree with these statements so I'm thinking it's worth a shot to try a few different types of asexual reproduction.

Say Guy, what if I had Wolf send me cuttings toward the end of winter and split them up between me and my neighbor? Do you think being in the mail at that time of year would be terribly detrimental to future rooting success? Me and my neighbor could try it and if it doesn't work... it doesn't work. I haven't done air layering before so I'd have to stick to something I've already tried that I had at least a little bit of success with. Just a thought.

Interesting links-
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-8702.html
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/6570
http://www.hortus.com/hudson.htm

Hey, Will, it's good to see you here. It would be nice, as Guy has stated, if more people from the "other" forum would join dave's garden. I'm sure it will happen, it will just take a little time.

I have not checked this forum in a while so I need to look around a little and see what info I may have missed.

Yes, the Dirr reference manual is worth the money. You must have the hardcover version if you paid $66.00? I purchased the soft cover version from Amazon.com for about 35.00 and then went to the Library in downtown Minneapolis and I found the same soft cover version of the book in their book store for $2.50 a week later....I could have just sh... that's just how things work out though.

I'll have to check in more often to see what's going on...

Guy,
I'm sure you are enjoying your "retirement" from seed distribution, but I sure do miss the thought of having some seeds on their way to me so I can start them. .

Maybe you could come out of "retirement" every 3 or 4 years and distribute seeds again??? (:o)

OK, maybe not, but I can dream, can't I?
Mike

Hi Mike, good to see you too. Maybe we can still meet up and go to Illinois next year.

I got my book from Barnes and Noble about a year and a half ago.
I think I just got the shaft on it, but thats my fault I guess for not shopping around. Its the soft-cover book. Its still a great book to have in the collection though.

Speaking of the book Dirr's The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation I'd be glad to quote what it says about Sugar Maple propagation, I have to be to work soon though, this afternoon.

If your concern is being sure to get a tree with stunning Fall color, all Sugar Maples have that. From seed, you couldn't be sure of the sex for a while, but their all beautiful.

Will

Hi Will, please do quote what Dirr says on sugar maple propagation when you get a chance.

Hey Treelover! Regarding this, "and then went to the Library in downtown Minneapolis and I found the same soft cover version of the book in their book store for $2.50 a week later....I could have just sh... " I would have had a heart attack and would have been reduced to tears. I take money seriously. Did you by any chance purchase that copy for $2.50? I really did loan my copy out and I have absolutely positively no idea who has it. If you have two copies, I would be glad to purchase the first copy you bought for the $35 you paid on Amazon. I need to get a new copy anyway. I had purchased the hard cover like Will originally and even with an educator's discount, I still paid well over $50. Depressing but worth every dollar.

Sure, here goes.

"SEED: Fall planting or 2 to 3 months cold stratificationis sufficient. Worthwhile to conduct cut tests since A saccharum does not form consistently sound seed. In one study, 20, 40 and 50 days cold stratification resulted in 15, 38 and 65% germination respectively.

Seedlings do not grow as fast as Red or SIlver Maple and in the commercial arena it may be difficult to produce a one-year suitable for budding. Seed source plays a significant role and nurserymen should collect/buy seed from local sources.

CUTTINGS: Difficult to root compared to A. rubrum and A. saccharinum but some success has been reported. Mid-June (Ontario) juvenile cuttings rooted 65 to 89%. Bottom leaves were fully elongated, apical meristem still growing. Medium was 2 soil: 1 vermiculite: 1 peat with mist. Larger diameter cuttings rooted better than smaller ones. Hormones did not improve rooting nor did wounding. 75% of cuttings over-wintered when mulched with Oak leaves. Vermont work [The Plant propagator 22 (1) : 3-6 (1976)] described 0 to 83% rooting from 4 different difficult or easy to root ortets. Untreated cuttings rooted better than those treated with hormone. One report noted that 0 to 4% IBA-solutions enhanced rooting of this species 45% rooting with 5000 ppm."

There is a short paragraph on grafting the tree underneath seed: and cutting: paragraphs.

Hows that for 24 words per minute?! And my job is data entry!
Some of the lingo in the book is a little hard to grasp for the layman like me!

Will

Why Will, you typing fiend you!

Will,
Yes, if I can work it out, I'd love to meet in IL to go see Starhill Forest Arboretum.

Equilibrium,
Yes, I did buy the second copy, but it has long-since been given to someone. Sorry.

Mike

I thank you all for your comments.

It sounds like the best time to take the cutting would be mid June? And then stick in some vermiculite and peat and wait?

Should I then stick the potted cutting outside in the environment that the particular tree grows in, or would a more controlled envirinment be benificial?

A little insight, the reason why I would like the genetic clone of this tree rather then a seed grown tree is that my grandfather when passed was cremated and spread at the base of his favorite tree. It would mean a lot to me if I could have the same tree in my yard.

Wolf, it looks like you'll be playing with some cuttings. But make sure which species you have -- is it sugar maple, or Acer saccharinum? (Sugar maple is Acer saccharum, and more difficult to root.)

If Equilibrium is willing to give it a shot, send some cuttings to her -- she has the world's greenest thumb, even if she does strike out in the deer damage and invasive exotics department! But, if all else fails, keep in mind that seedlings from that tree will still have a direct genetic connection to your grandfather. I would propagate a few seedlings anyway, just in case. If nothing else you can use them as understock and chip-bud the old tree to them in August a couple of years from now.

Mike, I'm SOOOO relieved not to have to collect 400 species of seed again this year! But I'll probably still be trading around a few odds & ends with friends now and then. Over the past two decades the job had just grown into a monster that sucked all my time and energy, sending seeds all over the world. I look forward very much to seeing you and Will down here (Equilibrium too -- pick her up on your way!) whenever the grand road trip comes together. I'll be doing some programs at the Minnesota Green Expo in Minneapolis next January (jeeez, what timing -- January in Minnesota!). Will you be there?

Guy S.

I already said no no no to Minnesota in January but Shortleaf and his girlfriend and Treelover could stay at my house to save on hotels if they want to meet you up at ChiBo.

Back to Wolf, "Should I then stick the potted cutting outside in the environment that the particular tree grows in, or would a more controlled envirinment be benificial?" Both. It won't take that much to gather a few more cuttings.

Will, can you please post photos of some of your rooted cuttings that you have in all those pots along side your home so he can get an idea?

Based on what I have read on this now, I'd definitely try air layering. Of course I would take cuttings to try to get them to root but I would want them in February so I can do it the way I had some success last time and then I think I'd like to try again in June as that appears to be an even better time to try to get the cuttings to root. When it comes to something important like this, I try to hit it from every direction. Sooner or later something will take and often times there is no rhyme or reason to why one way works when others fail.

Ok Mike, we'll plan on it likely in 06' to see the Sternberg's Starhill Forest.
Thanks Guy, I'll have my car in better running condition this time...hehe.

I don't have any rooted Sugar Maple cuttings, only 1 Sugar Maple seedling. When I got it from John Dillon (johnstaci), on that other forum, it was already a seedling, maybe 2 years old, but doing quite well, even after I dug it up this Summer and potted it.
Anyone is welcome to peruse my photo album though, which has photos of all my potted seedlings around here. - http://photobucket.com/albums/v243/w4i0a/
Eeee, its about 0 to 5 below fahrenheit here in January, Minn. has got to be a bit cooler then!

Your welcome to ride along Equilibrium. Thanks for the offer to put us up. I've heard good things about that ChiBot.

Yeah, with something like remembrance I'd try many cuttings of different times and methods, one is bound to grow.

A typing fiend.. hehe.. more like a hen-pecker typist, well, I guess a little faster than a hen-pecker!
After-all, I know where the keys are at, its just the typing speed that uhh.. isn't too good!

Will

p.s. "all those pots along side your home" hehe.. Yeah its quite a huge hodge-podge collection (hundreds) of about everything. Need some seedlings?! I rent, I don't own right now, so I can't plant any in the ground. I'll likely lose about 40% of them again this year.
My grandmother is my land-lady (I don't live with her). And she has been getting quite unruly lately (she is ummm.. very elderly). Not that age has anything to do with anything. But I might not have to worry about the cold killing the plants, she might run them down with a steam-roller!

Chi Bo is 45 minutes from me. The Morton Arboretum is only about an hour and a half away from me. That's another good one. I have to add that the Mitchell Domes are only about an hour north of me near Milwaukee. Those Domes are way cool.