Fall perennial planting is coming to a close in the northerly regions, but there is still time for some fall planting in zone 6, and in the southerly regions. I decided to give it a try on a larger scale this year, planting primulas, uvularia, ferns, mertensia, tricyrtis, panax, and some hardy aroids this fall. The main problem that I have been having with it is that I am used to getting immediate gratification and feedback from plants that have recently been transplanted. Often, though, I have found that this feedback isn't always reliable, and can give false hopes about how well a plant has actually established itself, so I thought I'd try a fairly large experiment this year with the fall planting.
Are there others that can give me an idea of what they have experienced from planting in the fall?
A good introduction to fall planting and the reasons behind it can be found here: http://www.munchkinnursery.com/newsletter/fall-planting/index.html
The nursery from which I linked the article focuses primarily on shady woodland garden plants, as well as a lot of very early and winter-blooming hardy perennials, plants that seem especially well-suited to fall planting, but the information in the article could certainly be adapted to many other growing situations.
-Greg
Planting Perennials in Fall
Hi, gregr--
I am a relatively new gardener here in Zone 6a (gardened before in Zone 10--quite different...) so not a tremendous amount of experience in this, but,...
Since I am trying to 'remodel' this garden and stay on budget, I have in the past two years bought plants, shrubs and trees at the end of season sales/close outs and planted them with great success in the fall...
If they were root bound I cut back the roots, if they looked nasty in the containers, I cut back the foliage, and protected them with the right mulch and critter control, etc., (as I would do for any plant), and in the spring, if I placed them properly in the garden, they were fine...
Buying at the end of season sales gives me a chance to buy plants (for as little as a $1.) I would ordinarily not try or opportunity to buy in bigger quantities. Lot's of fun and less risk. Also, lots of friends and family have extra cuttings and divisions to share in the fall, too, so I highly recommend getting into the fall planting habit.
We can plant here in Cincinnati up to mid-October or even later, I think, so there is lots of opportunity for fall planting...
Today I'm planting hostas, daylilies, peonies, columbines, poppies, and ferns,
Happy gardening. t.
Thanks for the link, Greg, I really enjoyed reading all the great information on native shade plants. His take on fall planting was especially interesting, in that fall plantings have a much longer time to establish a good root system rather than spring plantings which only have a month or two until the hot, humid summer months which are stressful for the plant. What he's saying makes a lot of sense as we have fairly hot, humid summers here (relatively speaking) with a guaranteed drought and a few stretches of 32 - 34 degrees Celcius with a humidex into the 40's.
I've had great success with fall planting. As a general rule, we can safely plant perennials up until the end of September in this area. The sale prices and clearances are definitely a bonus of fall planting. I also like the weather ....cooler but dry. We seem to have to wait forever in the spring until the beds dry up enough to work in them without packing them down. Another pleasantness about fall planting is the lack of bugs! We have a cedar swap on our property so the spring brings tons of black flies and mosquitos and I have to gear up in my bug suit....looking like a martian! LOL.
BTW, greg, here's a neat little Last Frost Date Selector that may interest those planting in Autumn...
http://www.victoryseeds.com/frost/
I just envisioned sanannie looking like she's waiting for the Mother Ship! LOL Great mental image!
Thanks for the feedback, tabasco and sanannie. And thanks also for the Frost Date link, tabasco. I have the date 10/17 in the back of my mind these days, the first frost.
Tabasco, you also make a good point about the budget benefit of planting in the fall, something I hadn't even really thought about. Lots of plants available for a dollar around here at this time of year too!
Sanannie, I really enjoy reading Gene Bush's writings, and his piece on fall planting really sold me on its advantages. I also like the articles on woodland shade plants since I more or less live in a clearing in the woods, and I've learned about a lot of interesting plants that don't show up on the horticultural radar too often, but which are perfectly suited for the garden. I ordered some things from his nursery in June, but he had already suspended shipping due to the summer heat, and he suggested I take a look at his article about fall planting if I still wanted to keep the order. I just got the order from him, so a lot of these woodland plants are going to be a part of this experiment.
Hey Gemini - I ain't kiddin' I look like a martian.....look at this. Don't you think they could beam me up anytime (after I divide the hosta of course)?
I meant to say above that about the only month I don't plant is in August. Spring planting it's the bugs etc., late June or July planting means I have to water them like crazy. Greg - do you get high heat, humidity and drought during the summer months in Maine?
Annie, I am in Massachusetts, though Maine was part of Massachusetts until sometime around the beginning of the 19th century, lol. We Bay-Staters ended up with the handy MA state abbreviation, and the poor Down Easters ended up with the not-exactly-intuitive ME. That being said, Maine is a beautiful state, one of my favorites, and I wouldn't mind living there at all :)
I would say that our summers here (I am not too far from Cape Cod) are quite a bit hotter then some people think. It isn't unusual to have sustained temps in the low to mid 90s in July and August, with an occasional spike into triple digits. I saw 102 degrees on my property at the end of July. The humidity is horrendous. Also, there is usually a period of drought during the summer, though this year's was as bad as I've seen in a long time. It must have been almost a month between appreciable rainfalls at one point. As a result, I've seen a lot of early dormancy in both my garden plants and wild plants, especially with ferns (the moisture lovers, like those of the genus Osmunda were especially prone to shut-down), and all of my hardy garden Arisaemas went into dormancy in the middle of July, about a month or two ahead of schedule. It was a rough summer, and the hose and I became good friends.
Oops, my ignorance is showing...sorry I thought MA was Maine. Sounds like although you're a bit hotter, you get the same humidity and drought conditions.
Greg, former 'Down-eastah' here and I always promoted planting perennials in the fall. Some years you could find me planting Hostas right up until Thanksgiving if the ground wasn't frozen! My fall plantings always got a 'jump' on spring and since the plants were going into dormancy anyway, they were concentrating on growing roots instead of putting all of their energy into producing foliage. Basically you get a full season's growth extra by planting in the fall.
Sanannie, got a kick out of your 'martian' photo. Reminds me of myself years ago in Maine - I was frantically trying to plant as much as possible one spring getting ready for a garden tour that summer. It was raining cats and dogs outside and I wasn't about to give up the time I had available only on the weekends. I dressed myself in a white hooded rainsuit and headed out to plant - one of the neighborhood teenagers came by - thought I was crazy and told me I looked like a 'giant condom' out there :)
rcn48...ROFLMAO!!
greg,
I'm a bit cooler than you in zone5b. I can plant perennials easily up until the end of September, early october. I need 6 weeks before a hard frost to root in properly, but the fall rains do wonders for the process....
I've been doing a lot of planting - I agree that you don't get the immediate satisfaction that you do from planting in the spring, but it's a lot easier to put the bulbs and perennials in together and to keep things watered to get them established. Around here rain is a lot more predicatable in the fall than the spring. Plus the end-of-season plant sales make it a lot more affordable. There's something to be said, too, for the treat of seeing everything that I planted in the fall pop come spring and summer the following year. I had a wonderful treat this spring when the bed I put in last fall bloomed.
I pretty much finished up all the fall planting that I wanted to do yesterday and today. All the positive experiences others have had were very encouraging, and I feel confident about everything. The fact that is was in the mid-60s and, as sanannie would appreciate, there were no bugs in sight made it even better!
-Greg
This message was edited Sep 26, 2005 7:17 PM
Wooooo hoooooo!!
I'm a gardener in Zone 5a -- I've been moving plants around all late September and a Master Gardener I spoke to said I shouldn't be doing that! In earlier posts it was said that plants grow roots during dormancy but I don't understand how plants grow roots when the ground freezes ... can someone please explain? Thanks.
Crockny - I am certainly not an expert but in my understanding, perennials can be moved/planted in the fall generally to the end of September and into mid-October in warmer zones and then the roots still have time to settle in and even grow until the ground freezes hard. Around here that's generally December so that gives them plenty of time to grow roots, even though above the ground they look dead and dormant, they are still very much alive below ground.
I can't remember where this info came from, but I recall reading or being told, that roots grow until the soil temp goes below 45 degrees F. So while I can't say as to the accuracy of that, I've used it as a rule of thumb for fall planting of perennials and shrubs and had good luck. I'm curious about this to if anyone knows. Neal
The general rule that I have seen reference was that root growth continues down to a soil temp of around 50 F, but there are lots of variables from plant to plant, and some perennials do require high air temperatures and sun exposure for root growth, making them poor candidates for fall planting. There are soil temperature maps available on the Internet, but the ones that I have found are fairly cumbersome to use and geared towards use by agricultural professionals, however they can still be used to get a general idea of soil temperatures in your region. This is probably the best of the sites and has daily information, but it is not terribly user friendly, and for Americans like me, it more of a pain since the temp is given in degrees Celsius, a measurement system that I still can't translate into a general physical sense of how hot or cold it is without converting it first! http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/scan/
Since soil is so dense, it retains enough heat absorbed during the summer to stay above 50 degrees until mid/late fall and sometimes into early winter (In this case, I am referring very generally to Zones 4-6). As sanannie said, the loss of top-growth doesn't signal dormancy itself, but is just a very noticeable signal that the dormancy process has begun. A lot of the information I have read on the subject suggests that for many perennials, the period between the end of foliar/floral production and the beginning of full dormancy is the only time that the plant's root system does not have to compete for energy with the plant's foliar growth and reproductive cycles, making it the perfect time to plant perennials.
crockny, I'm not exactly sure why the Master Gardener said you shouldn't be transplanting your plants now, but there are a few perfectly valid reasons why he/she might have told you that. In reading through a lot of fall planting material, I often come upon a general rule that you can plant perennials up until one month before the first expected frost date. In your case, that date has probably already passed, so perhaps the MG was using this rule of thumb. Also, just because of the chance of damaging roots when transplanting, especially when digging out an established plant, the MG might have been concerned that one of your plants might be injured at a time when there may not be enough time for an injured plant to recover from the damage at the same time as getting established in a new spot. However, I have come to the conclusion, both from reading through many different resources as well as asking people for their anecdotal information (such as in rcn's post above, having success with hostas right up to Thanksgiving) , that this rule of thumb is very conservative and generalized, probably aimed more at preventing inexperienced or casual gardeners from losing their fall plantings than as an accurate guide to when you really must stop planting or transplanting. A lot depends on the plant that you choose and the measures you take to protect the plant from winter damage. While you might not want to dig up and move an Agastache, which is one of the perennials that needs high soil and air temperatures for root growth, in late September, you would probably have a lot of success with ferns, hostas, and many of the hardy, non-bulbar, spring-bloomers. I would probably do some research just to make sure the plants you might want to move are good candidates for fall transplanting , take extra care not to disturb root systems too much, and maybe mulch some of the plants that you transplanted late in the season.
-Greg
Greg - really great info as usual. You mentioned there are some perennials that need high soil and air temperatures for root growth and are poor candidates for fall planting. Is there a general rule? I guess I'm wondering how I would go about finding out which plants are poor candidates for fall planting.
Where I am the frost dates are so variable that there's no way to predict. And this year, for instance, we have had the hottest and driest September on record. My gardens are just looking fried. Most years we could be planting bulbs/rhizomes until the middle of November. But I know a man with one of the most beautiful gardens in the city and he says if he gets a good deal of bulbs, he still plants them in January and February and they come up just like the ones he did in the fall. I'm just getting started with coleus and hostas on a grand scale, and the ones I'm getting now are going into pots so they are easier for me to care for until spring. Part of the reason for that is that I am recovering from back surgery and the pots are all I am allowed to do right now, and part of it is that the coleus are going to have to come inside for the winter anyway. Last winter we barely had rain to speak of, but the winter before that we had three really huge snowstorms that just buried us (well, for North Carolina, anyway). Most years I've just been planting bulbs in the fall and didn't have to worry so much about the time frames. But this year is a lot different because of the types of plants I'm adding. All the informarion above has been very interesting to read.
hi sanannie, Fortunately, the list isn't very long for perennials that require lots of sun for root growth. The ones I remember are Agastache, Gaura, and Buddleja, though I can't remember where I originally found the information. I'm not sure why they are like this, because it doesn't seem to be a very handy adaptation for a hardy perennial plant, but I'm sure there's a good reason for it!
I've come across the usual information that you shouldn't plant a perennial during its blooming season in relation to fall planting, especially particularly late bloomers, but it doesn't seem to be an issue that is pushed very hard. Personally, I ignored this advice when I put some more Toad Lilies, all loaded up with buds, in a couple of weeks ago, so I'll see what happens with them, but from my experience with these plants' toughness, I was pretty confident they'll be fine. Sometimes I cut the buds off of a spring/summer flowering plant that I plant close to its flowering season, but I've ignored that rule often enough with good results, and I really want to see these Toad Lilies!
-Greg
It seems many gardeners are successful with methods that others fail at and so much about gardening is experimental. Learning from our mistakes is a big part of it. I divide some of my perennials in fall and last year divided my pulmonarias-Big mistake! Of course I found out later they should only be divided in late spring after flowering. They grow so well here, I was loving spreading the babies around, but after the fall division they were very slow to recover. I thought they were dead when spring came, but was pleasantly suprised when they returned (much later than usual). That's a goof I won't make again! A lesson well learned.
The plants I have plenty of to spare are generally what I'll experiment with, to see how far I can push it. I'm less apt to play around with more expensive or choice plants though.
Thanks for the all the info! Unfortunately I did transplant an anise hyssop last weekend and was heading for the buddleia but it was saved by the Master Gardener! I shudder to think what I did to some rugosa roses two weeks ago! I transplanted some Rudbeckia last year that was big and hearty but has had a hard time coming back, so I probably did it too late. It's still alive though ...
It's very hard to get accurate weather and frost info for my garden -- the nearest town is way below me as I am in the second highest house on our ridge, and two or three weeks behind in blooming -- the people less than a mile down the ridge bloom before I do, so I have to estimate ... I plant much earlier than the advice I have read and have had good success ... I have done a number of things that I learned later I wasn't supposed to do but in general they have turned out OK!
It's all a learning process anyway ...
Greg - the Agastache, Gaura and Butterfly Bush are borderline hardy here, so I don't invest in them. But there are many people in the Ottawa area that grow the Butterfly Bush, either treating it as an annual or by cutting off the dead wood in the spring (which is all of it, right down to the ground). Starting from nothing it doesn't show signs of growth until the beginning of July! So it only gets 4' tall here. It really does seem to need that sun and warm air to start growing so I can understand how transplanting it in fall would be a dismal failure.
Gemini - I divided a Pulmonaria just yesterday, not realizing there was a better time to divide it. Oh well, my list of transplanting/dividing is always so long that I've just gotta do it !(strike when the iron is hot so to speak...the iron being my memory). I guess if they take longer to recover then so be it....it's not the end of the world....just as long as I don't kill them! : )
Crockney - You are so right about it being a learning process!
Greg,
While I hear you about missing instant gratification when planting perennials in the fall, you also mention that planting plants in bloom doesn't really give a reliable indication of what's going to make it through the winter etc. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, planting perennials even as late as now, when they're on sale, and preparing the the beds carefully, should be the better way to go.
We always used to say "that border needs some pink" and rush out and buy something pink. Who knew if it bloomed for two weeks or twenty weeks, if it liked sun or shade, if it was going to grow to five feet tall and block everything behind it.
I'm all for Darwinian gardening -survival of the fittest. But now that we're marginally more mature, we are reading plant tags and even researching plants before we buy them! We've bought so much stuff on sale, we'll probably keep planting as long as the soil can be worked. Now we have to learn about heeling in. LOL,
Carrie
Well, I'm still planting; in fact, a few things I ordered a few weeks ago haven't arrived yet. This weekend, we're getting the large area we have to fill, ready and planted. Everything else will have to wait until next year. Except for those few things that aren't here. Grrrr....
kb, I'm still planting, too. I'm putting in several hostas and a rose and a flat of pansies among other things...and I'm going to order some poppies when they go on sale...
still a lot to do and it's beautiful out today so I am running out and planting in between football games...
Count me as another late planter this fall. It was so hot and dry here this summer that I didn't spend much time outside in August or September. Once it started to cool down I began really inspecting my handiwork for the year and decided to change just about everything LOL.
Just finished planting some ferns, toad lilies and phlox. Also moved coneflowers, astilbe and a medium-size rose bush. My transplanting skills seem to need work. Had a hard time gauging the size of the area to dig and then noticed many roots were sort of spliced off where I pulled the plant from the ground. Oh well, obviously I am new at this but as everyone says, it's a learning process. It'll be fun to see what shows up next spring.
Well, I couldn't stop myself. I ordered some miniature roses that of course have to be planted as soon as they come. And I am still waiting for the last of my hosta purchases to come. The weather is finally bearable but still no rain to speak of. We are more than 6" behind now for the year.
I've been lurking around and reading your posts and hoped you guys wouldn't mind if I add my 2 cents worth. I am in the inland mountains of Northeast Washington, zone 5. It has been in the mid to high 20s at night here since soon after Labor Day.
But, I find the best time to plant is in the fall even though we went from fairly hot weather to fairly cool weather. I think the roots get established and the plants are ready to spread their wings, new growth, in the spring.
I think by planting in the fall we get almost a year up on the saying for perennials: lst year they sleep, 2nd year they creep, and the 3rd year they leap. Think that is right. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks for the space, Jeanette
Thanks for jumping in. It's always good to hear how others do everything.
I'm still planting, also. I agree with several of the prior posts - I tend to have more success by planting in the fall than spring. Not only do the plants seem to take better, but I have all spring and summer to decide what needs to be added or moved for next year. I keep a note book in my gardening folder for a fall to-plant and to-move list. Having so darn many "ditch" daylilies, this is also a great time of year for me to dig out sections. I weed-whack the falling tops down to a couple of inches so I can see what's where, and dig away. By taking on the task in chunks each fall, it keep the task manageable. Probably the best benefits in my book for fall are that the weather makes a hard day's work more comfortable, it easier to keep moisture in the soil, and I can interplant perennials and bulbs together more easily.
arachide: What part of the Chicago are you in?
Jnette--I had no idea your daily WA temps had such range...that is interesting that fall planting still works when it get to 20 degrees at night....
And I agree, ss., about it's a great time for re-arranging plants while it's fairly fresh in your brain what you have where and how much you loved/hated the summer display!
I'm still working on my planting today. Beautiful weather to be out in the garden here...so much better than the humidity and heat of August. And lots to re-arrange!
Happy gardening today, everybody. t.
Love reading how everyone does their planting. Like some others have said, it is much more enjoyable in the cooler fall weather.
One other thing I noticed this past spring was that we jumped from the 60s straight into the 80s plus high humidity then had no rain. My new plants didn't like that at all and struggled all summer. I am hoping the fall planting will let them establish themselves better so weird weather next spring won't bother them so much.
sstateham: I am on the southwest side of Chicago. Kind of amazing we are a whole zone apart yet not that far really distance-wise.
I'm also in zone 5b, it was very hot and dry here in September, I just planted a whole new flower bed a couple days ago, I still have iris and bulbs to get in the ground. I have planted up until the end of October before with no ill results as long as they are a fast grower.
I have some Rose of Sharon twigs sitting waiting for them to root. They are so slow I will probably have to bring them into the garage and over winter them there. How long does it usually take them to sprout roots if they are going to?
Lisa Moore
I've been out digging this morning and just came in for a coffee refill - the weather is perfect for it. Nice and cool with some sun and we're supposed to get some rain later so I won't have to run the sprinkler. I still has some plants left over from the fall sales that I needed to get into the ground, and I my bulbs have been arriving in batches. Today I have some shrub roses, catmint, tulips, checker lily, and iris to get in the ground and a bunch of hostas to split and move. I have a feeling my old arms will be sore tomorrow.
Arachide - that's northern Illinois for you :) If I lived 20 miles south I'd be in Zone 5. I work in Chicago near O'Hare, and it amazes me how much the weather can change just on the drive home in the evening.
tabasco, Since you've broke down and started aquiring roses again, I've read that dog hair is a good deer deterant. A groomer can supply you with all you need and it can be hidden under the mulch around the plants the deer find tasty. Good luck, Neal.