madder?

What's madder? This is the information on iris register for Little Amigo. Does this sound like it fits this SDB iris below?

Huh?

Sorry I don't know where it went!
Here it is again!

LITTLE AMIGO
(J. Boushay, R. 1979). Sdlg. 73-V-2. SDB, 13 1/2" (34 cm), M-L.
"S. mimosa yellow (Wilson 602/1); F. purple madder (RHS 102B) with yellow hafts, lightly edged yellow; yellow beard tipped white. M 1686-3: (Wow x Gingerbread Man) X M 1691-5: (inv. pumila, Snow Troll, Grace Note, Gingerbread Nan), J & J Iris 1979."

Looks like it fits to me, no matter what "madder" means! ;-)

Thanks Laurie, These haven't bloomed for years. It's nice to get the names back on the right plants.

Here is another one.

OLIVER
(H. Nichols, R. 1971). Sdlg. N-69. SDB, 10" (25 cm), E.
"Creamy white self; orange beard with brown halo. Brassie X Brassie. Nichols, Sierra Vista, Top o¹ the Ridqe 1974."

Some of the color descriptions just crack me up! I asked a hybridizer about it once, and, if I can remember right, they said that there aren't very many specifications of what breeders can call the different colors in their irises. I do believe that the letters and numbers in the descriptions (i.e. RHS 102B in 'Little Amigo') represent colors on a particular color scale, but as far as the names breeders come up with, I'm really unclear on how their coming up with them. Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm misinformed, because I'd really like to know the answer too!

Laura,

Although I've never seen any of the color charts in person, I *think* they identify each color by number *and* name. Problem is, the different standardized color guides are NOT standardized with each other, so the color that is "purple madder" in the RHS chart probably has an entirely different common name and number in a different chart. And of course hybridizers are under no obligation to refer to any of the color charts in their iris descriptions. They can make up whatever color names suit their fancies at the time of registration, if they so choose.

Confusing, eh?

Yes, very confusing! I knew it was something like that. I feel that AIS should standardize ONE chart and ONE name per color and EVERYONE should have to go by that information. But then again, that's just my opinion! :]

Apparently AIS used to use or sell or recommend or manufacture (I don't know which) one color chart many years ago, but for some reason the organization quit doing that. Perhaps Neil will catch this thread and explain to us why that happened.

It sure seems like it would make reading and interpreting registration data a whole lot easier for all concerned.

RHS is for the Royal Horticultural Society and they do, indeed, have a color chart (actually four main fans) which growers use for identifying color. Pamela Harper writes about it in her (now out of print but not out of circulation) book, "Color Echoes" - designed for "Harmonizing Color in the Garden". So if you take the green fan you'll find true green in the center and then to one side the yellowed greens and to the other side the blue greens. It's available in England but I have no idea as to it's availability here.

I just checked my two ancient books on irises and judging and exhibit them and there is no reference as to which color charts/fans,etc. they use.

Whereas we may say Fuchsia they say " Munsel hue medium purple pink 2.5 RP 7/8 to deep purple pink 2.5 RP 6/10" for one daylily named Whimsical.

A rose by any other name..........would still have aphids.

'Ancient books on irises' - more info please....

I saw the colour chart at Wisley about 10 years ago. Fearfully expensive, 100s of $$. Can't remember how much but far too much to justify purchasing, even for a regional society.

Your irises are just lovely.

Inanda

Inanda - do you want the names, etc. of the books?

WOW!! You're all great! So with all your color knowledge, what do you think? Do these look like the AIS info.?

JOLLY FELLOW
(A. Brown, R. 1972), Sdlg. M 1404-5. SDB. 13-14" (33-36 cm), EM.
"S. greenish tan; F. velvety brown, slightly lighter edges; flax blue beard. M 1292-7: (Snow Troll x Grace Note) X Gingerbread Man. J & J Iris 1973."

DOLL DEAR
(R. Blodgett, R. 1979). Sdlg. D78-14, SDB, 10" (25 cm), M-L.
"S. cream, shading to blue at base; F. cream, shading to canary at hafts and each side of the beard; blue styles tipped cream; orange beard, outer half blue. Stockholm X (Eye Shadow x Lenna M). Blodgett 1980."

This pic. doesn't show the orange beared, but it is there about half way.

This message was edited Jun 6, 2005 10:00 AM

Definition of madder: A southwest Asian perennial plant (Rubia tinctorum) having small yellow flowers, whorled leaves, and a red root. It is the root of this plant that was an important source of a red dye (alizarin), a medium to strong red or reddish orange

Just as I was about to offer my two cents worth, No H2O to the rescue! Yes, madder is a pigment. As a watercolor artist I know how hard it is to define colors according to the different manufacturers tube names. Even with all of the color knowledge I have personally, I find myself mystified by the different reds especially. For example, I still don't know the difference between crimson and scarlet! Add to that the difference between inks used in photography, printing, etc., fading, the difference of climate, time of day, etc. on daylily color... I think a simple color wheel type of nomenclature would be useful. For example, this is a red-violet, warm (tending toward the red orange yellow side of the color wheel, rather than the violet blue side...) Dark, and tending toward muddy. (or whatever you would call a more neutral color rather than a pure hue.) Does anyone have a handy readily available printed color wheel that we could use as a general frame of reference? I could look up some mags and see what's available if anyone is interested....

If something is available that's used by everyone - like the RHS is in England, then it would be immensely helpful.

Jolly Fellow looks like it fits, but Doll Dear doesn't.

caitlinsgarden, do you ever paint pictures of your garden? I would love to see them. :^)

I agree with Laurie. I don't think you have 'Doll Dear'.

Thanks!!! If it isn't Doll Dear, it has to be one of these 4. Maybe Toe Dance?? Here is another photo of it.

JARED
(S. Innerst, R. 1978). Sdlg. 555-1. SDB, 10" (25 cm), M.
Ruffled gold with sharp white wash in center of F.; gold beard. Angel Music X Stockholm.

SECRET GARDEN
(Larry Harder, R. 1974). Sdlg. 74-4. SDB, 14" (36 cm), E-L.
S. pale red-orchid (RHS 81C); F. pale red-orchid (82D) with deeper spot (71A) pattern; silvery blue beard. Fi Lee X Flaming Dawn. Maple Tree Gardens 1975.

TOE DANCE
(A. Brown, R. 1973). Sdlg. M 1402-S. SDB, 12" (30 cm), M-L.
"S. light fern green (Wilson 0862/3); F. garnet brown (00918/2), lighter at edge; plum purple beard tipped fern green. M 1278-19: (Lilli-Var x Grace Note) X Gingerbread Man. J & J Iris 1974."

TOY
(B. Hager, R. 1982). Sdlg. SD3261TnVBd. SDB, 10" (25 cm), M.
"Light tan, brown on hafts, violet line extending down from deep violet beard. SD2719: (Marinka x SD2233A: (Blueberry Muffins x Peanuts)) X SD2891: (SD2577: (Marinka x SD2233A) x Three Smokes). Melrose Gardens 1982."

I'd say your best option for that one is TOE DANCE.

A suggestion - it'll make matching up your irises with their correct names easier if you take photos of each flower from several different angles: top, front, and side (the latter two require getting down at ground level to photograph).

I'll do that! Thanks! LOL, Now I wonder where Doll dear is?? It's fun seeing these again after not blooming for so long. Love Jolly Fellow spots! I'm sure there probably is a name for them, Right?

I think the spots your referring to are called "Pumila Spots". This refers back to the species I.Pumila, which a lot of the modern SDB's originated from.

Laura, since she specifically mentioned JOLLY FELLOW's "spots", and since JF doesn't have a pumila spot, I'm guessing she's referring to those tiny color break flecks. I get a lot of those in years with late freezes or wild temp swings during bud development. They can also occur as a result of mosaic virus.

Laurie,
LOL, Oh No! mosaic virus. I sure hope it isn't to horrible, because I like those spots.

Laura,
Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about the tiny specks on Jolly Fellow. I appreciate your help!
Is this what you were talking about? I think this one is Sunbrella SDB.

Thanks

pirl, Yes please. Names of books/authors/date of pub - if shown - ISBN if shown

My oldest book is Dr. Wallace notes on Lilies, 1874 oops, back to lilies by mistake.

Oldest iris books are all published this century.
Inanda

Edited to add - or a reprint

This message was edited Jun 6, 2005 6:59 PM

I bought them at a book sale at the library. I'd like to send them to you - no strings. Is that okay with you?

Then, someday if we ever travel up your way, you can give us some good travel/restaurant/hotel/sight seeing tips in return. We've gone to Canada in the fall for the last five years but always on the east coast. We saw Vancouver back in '94.

Arlene

What do you think is this SECRET GARDEN?

SECRET GARDEN
(Larry Harder, R. 1974). Sdlg. 74-4. SDB, 14" (36 cm), E-L.
S. pale red-orchid (RHS 81C); F. pale red-orchid (82D) with deeper spot (71A) pattern; silvery blue beard. Fi Lee X Flaming Dawn. Maple Tree Gardens 1975

No, I don't think so. I don't see any way those falls could be accurately described with a spot pattern or with a ground color of pale red-orchid.

Laurie it has to be one of the above that I listed and I don't see anything there that has a red color in any of them except this one. I'll try to get better photos.
Thanks

Laurie here are a couple more photos of the same one.

side view, same one.

Anyone?? What do you think??

I think you may have just received an incorrect iris. According to the description, the standards and falls are the same "pale red-orchid". In your picture, the standards and the falls are clearly different colors. I also went through your other descriptions, and none of them fit either. If you received this iris from a grower, I would email them the pic and ask if you received the incorrect one.

Thanks,
I appreciate your help!
I got these many years ago at the Maine Iris show/sale. I kept all the names. I have just lost the labels over the years. I'm going to the same yearly show/sale tomorrow. I'm hoping someone there can help. Again, thank you for your thoughts!
Bonnie

Pale red-orchid on both the falls and standards, but a different number after each one. I suspose the number is from the RHS color chart. So the colors are in the same family, but not exactly the same...That could apply to this pic, IMHO....

You think so? I hope so! I was hoping to talk to the expert on SDB iris at the show/sale yesterday, but he left before I had a chance.

Thank you! Maybe someone will have a picture of Secret garden some where and I can compare pictures.