Please explain...

This message was edited Jun 9, 2005 9:36 AM

Hi Liila..I don't think anyone is going to hate you for the fact that you pick butterfly eggs off of your plants. It's totally and entirely up to you. Like I said in my last post, I'm really new into this butterfly thing, having done lots of research and such on it recently. There are people that obviously taylor their gardens around butterflies, so that they can attract them. They provide food sources on purpose, sacraficing a few leaves here and there, so that they can watch the creatures. But there are also people that don't want ANY type of critters in their gardens and they protect them not only naturally like you've done, or with pesticides. All a matter of opinion and choice, and perfectly acceptable. I myself am not a fan of bees and wasps, at ALL, they make me cringe, but I'm learning to accept them as just part of what happens in the little world of a garden.

Again, I wouldn't worry or feel guilty about what you are doing.

Take care,
PiggyPoo

Hey Liila~

I started out with you. Go back to this thread "Butterflies and Hummers: Who am I? What butterfly will I become? collected in Fla" dated March 26, 2005.

See my complaints -- and the responses.

hmmm, perhaps we should exterminate all insects so we dont have to worry about a few lost leaves. Perhaps thats the answer. Heya flyboy ;-)~

sl~

But not the ladybugs.

At least, they eat aphids.

Yeah but their excrement is a blight on my leaves - nope, can’t have them either, need more chemicals I think. Having something natural on one of my plants is an insult to my landscaping and must not happen. What pesticides control ladybugs? ;-)~

sl~

you really know how to hurt a guy.

and I thought I was going soft. ;-)

sl~

By the way -- understand you're interested in figs. My figs are back in Florida. Get back to me late fall, and I'll send you a few cuttings.

I got into passionvines because I was interested in using native plants to support the wildlife in my own home environment. I do love butterflies. However I now have over 30 kinds of passiflora. I grow for their beauty and interesting qualities.
I have 4 large vines of P. caerulea and P. incense that I provide as food for hundereds of caterpillars.. The rest of my collection is sprayed to prevent them from being stripped of all flowers and leaves. Some of my friends disagree but I have spent too much time and money on these plants not to enjoy them.

Its all about choices.

Right on, Flicker~.

It's them or us. I can't wait to see what happened to the passiflora I left behind.

signed: Sleepless near Secaucus

Well, some of you guys are hostile and downright unfriendly, but I'll chalk it up to sheer bad manners, inhospitability and the fact that it's so easy for the powerless to be rude and aggressive in an online forum with no consequences. I came here for help, not to be sarcastically attacked. I do appreciate the *positive* feedback and helpful advice. As was so kindly suggested, I'll scram and leave you to it.






This message was edited Jun 9, 2005 10:44 AM

This attitude is inappropriate for this forum. Best expressed elsewhere! Scram!

The population is up; some butterflies are making a much-needed comeback so you are seeing more activity in your gardens. It is such an inconvenient thing for us humans when something that we have nearly caused to go extinct makes a comeback and harasses us. I think if we look hard enough, someone will have some black market DDT we could use. That should get those numbers back down to the endangered status so we don’t see as many of them. It might also control many birds in our area so we don’t get those pesky bird droppings on your car. They just make our cars so unsightly, we need to control that.

good grief - this is a forum for the sake of HELPING butterflies and hummers - what do you expect. However, I would much rather drive down there and allow you to slap me instead of you poisoning the earth further out of anger for me, so dont spray out of anger for me. If your going to spray, do it because your selfish and just dont care about the environment but dont do it out of anger for me.

You're right, my comment about spraying was completely inappropriate. The reason they're so out of control is *because* I *don't* want to use anything to kill them. I don't spray. I prefer a natural approach. My only real problems up until the cat invasion this year have been mites and aphids, and I finally had to treat the pots with Bayer systemic but only because neem oil didn't do anything. I don't want to use any harsh, toxic chemicals and harm beneficials. If you could recommend a repellent, as opposed to a poison I will gladly try it. I've also never slapped anything or anyone other than mosquitoes.

Go to the Garden Foes forum and tell them the awful people in Butterflies and Hummers sent ya.

Liila - I have never really done anything to repel cats but have used some natural repellents in the veggies that might do the same thing. Butterlies seem to be very, very picky about where they put the eggs. They are good at making sure the food source is appropriate for the young. I cannot swear to this, others on here may know more - but I think if you dilute tobasco with water and spray on your plants it would deter the butterflies from laying eggs there since the young could not eat. You have to be careful though, test a small area first to make sure your mix is not too strong for the plant, it can actually burn the leaves if mixed too strong. Also, do the spraying in the early morning or evening (on adult plants).

There is a lot of info on the web also about how to plant an area for butterflies with "weeds" away from your landscaping that are more desireable than your garden plants as a food source. It will give names of plants and where to get seeds. Sometimes giving them an alternative food source they would rather use will deter them. Those that it does not you can pick off and move. We cant save em all but using pesticides is NEVER the answer. Its a big reason our planet is in the mess it is now. Im surprised you can even still buy the stuff.

Sorry if I came on too strong but I tend to say what is on my mind and it always gets me in trouble.

I've considered buying some milkweed plants (at least I think it's milkweed!Suggestions welcome for butterfly plants!) for them to go to town on. I also vaguely recall that garlic spray can be a natural deterrent and am trying to find info about that on the net. I think I'll also post a question about garlic & non-harmful butterfly control on the garden foes forum. I don't want to hurt them anymore, just make them stay away.

I happen to agree with you about the pesticides, and as I've stated I don't like to use chemicals. But, this morning, when I frantically started taking a tally of all the plants that were being chewed to pieces it about floored me. Every plant I have is a "baby", and noone can tell me that they're happy about losing all their foliage. If I can come up with a natural solution that will save my pineapple sage, tibouchina's, passiflora's, scented geraniums, brugmansia's, Mexican firebush, cestrum nocturnums, cypress papyrus, herbs, and everything else I will be on it like a flash. And I will try natural solutions only until I find something that works. After this conversation, that's a promise.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about one's beliefs. As stewards of the planet it's our job to protect the defenseless and innocent as well as assuring an environment worth living in to future generations. There are many who would be happy to have nothing but drawings of nature, silk plants and concrete backyards, and I pity them. But, one can always catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I'm glad we overcame the enmity in order to have a real conversation about this.

And, you never answered my question. Just how long is the assault going to continue? How long an egglaying period do butterflies go though, anyway? I might could tough it out. Actually, there's been a very beautiful yellow and black butterfly fluttering around the yard all morning, and I looked at it with different eyes when I realized it was just trying to find someplace for its babies to survive.

I agree. But with whom? Both sides. I think too many of you were too harsh with Liila, who did say she wanted to understand and wanted to welcome the butteflies and caterpillars....just didn't know how to do that and keep her plants beautiful. I see nothing wrong in what she said. But some of you have a sense of humor that's a little hard to read sometimes. Liila although people were too harsh with you in my opinion, I do think you might have expected some bit of surprise at someone not wanting butterflies and caterpillars in their garden when you post such in a forum dedicated to butterflies and hummers.

slgrowers, using pesticides is never the answer in YOUR opinion. I always try the friendly stuff first....for weeks and weeks. But the aphids always win and I end up using systemic on them. Do I feel bad? Yes....but . Do I think I should let my garden be taken over by aphids or my life ruled by trying to control them in a friendly way? No. But do I respect that other people don't always agree with my way of doing things in my garden? Yes.

-Julie

But, but, ok. Liila, please don't scram. I'm sorry for being so stupid/dumb! Cats love things like parsley, fennel and anything in the carrot family. Do a google for more info.

Liila, In my experience butterflies aren't all alike. Black swallowtails lay on my fennel on and off as long as the heat lasts. Gulf fritillaries start laying in ernest in late July until it gets cold. We have masses of frits. However monarchs have become scarce here but moderate in other areas. Am. painted ladies use cudweed as a host here as long as the cudweed is blooming. It does depend on which host plants you grow in your yard and how many of that particular insect are in your area.
Once you have a good supply of one certain host plant for a couple of seasons--like my delicious passionvines--your flock of butterflies,etc., will grow and grow!

Photo of cudweed

Julie - fair enough but I still think Pesticides should be banned completely. That said, have you honestly tried natural remedies for aphids? I dont mean natural sprays. I mean purchasing about a thousand ladybugs or other such insect and releasing them on a regular basis during your growing season. I use them in a large greenhouse and large garden and they control it very, very well. I am proud to say that my greenhouse is 100% organic and I would put the health and appearance of my plants up against any greenhouse controlled with and grown with chemicals. If you need links to vendors I have used to purchase such insects let me know.

Do the newer Asian ladybugs eat aphids like the old, redder ones used to? I have a lot of aphids this year, have been spraying with water to remove. The thing I did notice about the new ladybugs is that they BITE people. Not a lot and not too bad, but I get a little red spot and feel a pinch.

I guess I'm glad I didn't have time to join in on this earlier. I'm sure I would have been thought of as too harsh.

slgrowers, let's talk bugs and how you have been able to control them. I need help. I had a lot of ladybugs earlier in the year, but I'm just not seeing them now. Maybe I didn't have any aphids for them at the time. I have milkweeds coming up all over, and as usual my swamp milkweed already has the aphids. I don't usually bother with them tho. I learned the last few years that the hover flies will soon find that plant and the aphids will be gone for a while.

I'm having a horrible time with lace bugs this year tho. I have had to use insecticidal soap, which has been the strongest thing I've used in my 4 years of gardening. I did buy and use something that contained pyrethrin. I was losing seedlings to these creatures. I also bought something with Neem but haven't used it since it's been too windy. I'm not doing anything stronger than these. I'm waiting on some lacewings to help out.

...sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread but I'm desparate. btw, my gardening purpose is for the butterflies, so my passionvines were planted solely for them. It's a good thing I'm not growing them for beauty tho, because they haven't gotten to that point yet. lol

the asiatic lady beetles dont actually bite but rather pinch, you can look em up and read about how and why they do this on the web. They, just like every species of lady beetle do eat aphids and any soft bodied insects they can get to. The young of lady beetles also eat pests. Be sure you are familiar with what they look like so you do not mistake them as a pest and destroy them, they actually destroy more pests than the adult beetles.

You can purchase lacewings as well, some sites allow you to purchase ladybeetle lavae which are easier to keep on your plants as they mature. I order adult ladybeetles, ladybeetle larvae, lacewings, mantis and a certain little parasitic wasp and have very little trouble with pests. I hope this helps.

I'd purchase ladybugs if they were offered for sale here. I used to buy ladybugs and praying mantis every year when I lived in the States. But that isn't an option here in Israel. I even 'kinap' ladybugs when I see them and bring them home with me. Obviously, I can't do that enough to make an impact on the aphids though.

-Julie

Salvia - sorry, didn’t notice you were in Israel. I would have to check and see what lady beetles or mantis species (if any) are indigenous to your country. I will look that up for you, I have many areas I can check. I will also see if I can find out what aphids are indigenous to your country as well and try to help suggest natural solutions. Just give me a bit of time. Swamped with work, my greenhouse and garden right now but I promise to fit it in as I feel it is important.

When I actually stop to think about it, it's so weird that Julie is in Israel! Wow, isn't the internet great?! It's weird to me too that not everything is the same there as here. LOL Can you tell I don't get to travel much?!

:-), you're very sweet. I've tried alcohol, soap, hard water sprays, garlic spray, and a few other things I can't think of off the top of my head. Alcohol works on the aphids that attack my succulents. But the aphids that swarm my citrus and almond trees......they won't even come off with hard water sprays - with the fire hose (yes, we have a fire hose in our garden LOL)!!!!! And the other things don't seem to phase them in the least. The only thing I found to work on those is systemic. I am very careful to spray within the trees on non-windy days though to avoid as much as is possible getting the spray on anything but the trees in question. Then I thoroughly hose down any plants in the vicinity to make sure any drops that may have fallen on them are washed away.

I meant to say too that we have lots of species of ladybugs. I've seen at least half a dozen different colorations in the garden myself. But the problem is, I see perhaps one ladybug every 2-3 weeks....and that isn't enough when the trees are covered in aphids. The aphid season is pretty much over now though. The month of May seems to be the peak and then suddenly....next to nothing (thank god!). I also have at least two kinds of mantis here (one green/beige depending on maturity and the other is green with white spots). But again, this year especially was just terrible for aphids. I almost lost my clemantine tree before I finally used systemic on it....but that's an exception as that tree was indescribably attacked in what seemed like an overnight onslaught.

KKB, it's weird to ME that I live in Israel LOL.

-Julie

This message was edited Jun 10, 2005 6:11 PM

Where do the aphids come from?! I've never seen an army of them marching across the ground! ?? It just amazes me how they appear overnight. I didn't know they attacked trees either. THAT would be hard to control.

The worst problem with them in my garden is on the citrus trees. They feed on the underside of the leaves which makes the leaves curl up. So no matter what I spray on them I've got to do it at very close range squirting the liquid right into the curled up leaves.....all over the tree. Thank goodness my trees are still small....dunno how I'd deal with this if they were more mature. I read here http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r107305011.html that this aphid problem is usually only a problem on young trees. I hope so.

-Julie

Julie - Does sound as if you have an unusual aphid problem. Have you been able to identify what type of aphids they are? That would help me in searching out the best organic sources for control to suggest to you. If you do not know, I could probably identify if you could get me some good close up photo's of them.

Thanks

Will have to wait til next year for pics as the citrus aphid problem is over now. They are green....that's all I know. The ones on the almond trees are black. I'm not so sure it's that unusual though since the link I posted above talks specifically about citrus aphids. Also it's a well known problem here too...every spring until the end of May Citrus and Prunus are attacked with a vengeance by aphids.

-Julie

Julie:

Everything's gotta eat.


This message was edited Jun 11, 2005 9:11 AM

I agree. And I wouldn't even care about aphids if they wouldn't be such pigs about eating the whole tree. I don't bother trying to treat my chrysanthemums for aphids anymore as the plants seem to end up handling it fine on their own. But my citrus trees just get overrun :-(....

-Julie

Be patient. They don't touch the fruit. And YOU don't eat the leaves.

ROTFL! Thanks for the warning Brad. It came just in time...I was about to make a citrus leaf salad ;-).

-Julie

LOL...Brad's "tune" has changed now about those vine eating cats...which is a good thing! Julie, do you have a Swallowtail butterfly of some sort that uses the citrus trees there? Here the Giant ST does.