Diatomaceous Earth Question

Does anyone know if Diatomaceous Earth will kill earthworms?
I'm thinking of getting some for fleas, slugs etc. but I wouldn't want to harm my earthworms.

Thanks
Dove

Hiya Dovey,

By the time the D.E. get down into earthworm territory it is usually moist or wet. D.E. is not very effective when wet. So wipe out those fleas with confidence. Once the sprinklers get the soil wet the D.E. is just a good soil amendment. Remember that the stuff used for swimming pool filters is not the same as the stuff labeled for pests. Have a super day.

Best to you,
Don

Don,
I'm going to order it from a gardening site. I was just worried that it would harm all those wiggley worms that are so happily multiplying in my garden since your "visit".
I was a little concerned about the ladybugs too, but I don't see many on the ground.
Thanks for the reply

Take care
Dovey

Hi Don ! and Dovey,
Is D.E the way to go for pill/sow bugs? What about slugs? Excuse my ignorance....
A

So they say, even good for fleas.
I haven't got mine yet but my daughter says it's as fine as flour and yet it's suppose to be razor sharp to snails, slugs I guess anything that wriggles and crawles on the surface of the siol or even plant leaves.
Don is the real expert here. I'm sure he'll have more information.
Dovey

Hiya BerkeleyAnnie,

D.E. is excellent for pillbugs and snails/slugs. The only problem with it is that when it gets wet it's reduced to a soil amendment role and slugs/snails are mostly moving around when its wet. Decollate snails are a fabulous competing organism that eats snail/slug eggs and the very young. They can be introduced into your garden by placing them individually in very moist dark places or releasing them at night, after watering, in the areas where you have the most trouble with slugs and snails.

www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r107500111.html

Here's some data on them.

Best to you,
Don

Thanks so much Don
It's the pill bugs that are being the real pills right now !
It's so disgusting that they are in the shrimp family ewwww !
Aphids are a problem too with slugs coming in at third.
I am working hard !
A.

Rincon-Vitova Insectary is a source for these.

http://www.rinconvitova.com/rincon-vitova.htm

Thanks Don
Hmm I don't see anything there specifically for Crustacea Isopodalem ,but I think D.E. might be the way to go?
(cool site!)
A.

hiya BerkeleyAnnie,

Indeed D.E. is a formidable killer of pillbugs. Put it out where those rascals hang out and they'll suffer the day they hatched...lol. They are particularly affected by this material and they will be gone soon. Repeat applications are advised. About every three days when the garden soil surface is dry-ish.

best to you,
Don

Hi Don,Happy weekend!
Have you heard of Diatect V: it's a mixture of diatomaceous earth and pyrethrin, without the piperonyl butoxide. And it's certified organic ?
Should I go for the really big guns? I feel like a shrimp farm.
Don,I think that the majority of California Gardner's here at GD are not Organic. No one besides you has replied to my thread and I think I have committed a HUGE DG faux pas!
YIKES!
A.

And a happy weekend to you as well,

I've heard of this material, and it is bound to work. I can only state from my own experience with pyrethrins that it is toxic to fish, so don't use it anywhere near a pond, and bees don't like it all that much either. We do use pyrethrins here as a very last resort. It is the most toxic botanical insecticide we utilize here. Dialect V has a high rating of satisfaction among users, and it is listed for pillbugs, so I'm sure it works great. In large, or damaging infestations of this pest I've had some luck with clove oil (eugenol). But my success is anecdotal only. The Dialect V product's high level of active ingredient pretty much assures this product will wipe out your pests. You might also consider the terpenoid oil from orange rind (orange oil/ d-limonene). Many of these products are made specifically for organic gardeners and are food grade materials.

Hope this helps,
Don

Don,
I think you are suggesting I start with something less toxic than pyrethrins and that sounds good. Is the turpanoid the same one used by oil painters ? If so I have a lot of that ! Do you dilute it ? I much prefer to start with something that wont kill off the beneficial guys like bees!
Clove oil (eugenol),seems a good suggestion also ,I have a small bottle of that for toothaches etc.again,do you dilute?
Let me get to the real problem I am having !
My soil is unbalanced (obviously too moist) and bone dry on top. I can't tell if i have too much topsoil and not enough compost or the reverse.Mulching helped the sow bugs and not watering kills the veggies. So I am starting with the darn shrimp while keeping soil as my primary crop until I can balance it!
HELP DON!
A.

hiya BerkeleyAnnie,

First lets clarify, Use the orange oils that are food grade. Since I'm not an oil painter I'm thinking you might be asking about turpentine...Please don't use that stuff....d-Limonene or food grade orange oils only, yes dilute with water and a couple of drops of Dr. Bronner's pepppermint soap to help with oil/water separation. Agitate the mixture as you apply it to keep it emulsified. Same goes with clove oil. Dilutions for both would be about 5-15ml per 1/2gal of water depending on your infestations.

Dry on the surface and wet below? or is your garden on a slope? If it is dry on the surface and wet below, is it a raised bed? Is your native soil claylike or does it drain well?

Sorry about the twenty questions..lol.

best,
Don

Hi Don
Thanks for helping. I have all of it,slopes,raised beds,clay soil. The healthiest parts of my soil are the more clay areas I didn't try to amend ! My raised beds for veggies are on a flat area (being devestated by the shrimp),my citrus are on a slope (dropping leaves at an alarming rate i think due to soggy roots) and apple trees,roses,ornamentals in clay soil doing ok but suffering the daily battle with aphids.As I mentioned to you earlier my problems are in descending order 1)soil imbalance 2) sow bugs 3)aphids 4)slugs
sigh..still I manage to harvest stuff! Things are strong. Later today Ill send some sort of pic.
Thanks for the listen.
A.
No I mean Turpanoid not turpintine. Don't think it is food grade tho ! yuck

This message was edited May 28, 2005 9:03 AM

hiya BerkeleyAnnie,

Now let me get this straight...lol.

You placed your raised beds right on top of your existing, slow draining soil. Did you provide some weep holes in the raised bed walls or drainage below to collect and evacuate excesses of water?

Aphids are so easy. I actually grow a bunch of Artemesia absinthum around our apples to lure the aphids away from the apples or I just hit the buggers every other day or so with a sharp jet of water, washing them off until the drown, they die trying to get back up, or the ants tending them get tired of the maintenance of their flock and quit.

We are huge fans of Sluggo here for slugs and snails, but Decollate snails really help us to keep the slimers off of plants.

As far as your citrus goes, Citrus often drop off leaves from two seasons past right before putting out a new crop of leaves. This often looks like they are responding poorly to too much irrigation. It is always a good idea to construct good watering basins of soil around these trees.

I look forward to your pics so we can come up with some solutions.

best,
Don

Hi Don
The Pix look better than the situation!
I cant seem to get a close up of pill bugs or soil !
The Veg. raised beds have great drainage below,just the new soil I added was poorly balance..its the same situation with the lime on the sloped bed !
Thanks, A.

veg

Show off

three questions...yikes, it's like torquemada...lol.

Are you mulching over the surface of your topsoil? Bare soil exposed to the sun will dry out quickly at the surface and give the illusion that the beds are dry. A layer of a good organic mulch would be helpful if you are not already doing this.

When you speak of unbalanced (sounds like me talking about myself) are you suggesting the soil has a problem nutrient-wise or are you suggesting it was a poor mix of ingredients to begin with?

The citrus doesn't look all that bad. Was it recently planted? It looks like there are two different trees there. Is the greener on an Orange and the other a lemon?

If you are suggesting that you have a calcium imbalance in your native soil, hydrated lime is cheap. Have you had your soils tested at UC extension service?

okay that's four questions....

best,
Don

Hi Don,
nobody expects the Spanish inquisition !
hee hee
1) I WAS mulching to combat the dry top/soggy bottom situation but the sow bugs FLOURISHED in the mulch.
2) I feel I have improperly mixed high quality ingredients (me talking about me ?)
3) The citrus looks OK now but I am a Jewish mother!! I have to worry until I can correct!
4) I don't want to drag in UC yet! Not when I have you!
5)Worms and casings to arrive soon(for composting and to add to raised beds), will lime bug them?
6)My native soil is clay so I have amended it improperly and it varies from patch to patch what the imbalance is..
Hey, I think Ive got it!
Kill the shrimp,stop watering so much,and keep amending !
I guess talking therapy really works!
A.

lol@talking therapy,

Amending your soil is rarely an error with organic material. Earthworms are a hardy group of organisms. I can't imagine that the pH of your soil is so different from their bedding that they might shock or die. There may be a recovery period or a period of slowed feeding as they acclimate.

Liming is a tricky business that should be monitored by some sort of baseline testing on the soil. I can't suggest more lime until you have such a baseline pH examination of your soil. If you need to add more calcium in order to further 'loosen' your clay, might I suggest gypsum or crystal gyspsite. It is not as alkaline as lime and doesn't affect pH as dramatically.

I was raised by a Jewish mother...lol, and can only suggest that if you need to 'fix' something, make some tea from bat guano and dump the stuff around your citrus to bump up their N levels a bit to promote more new leaf production.

Think of it as 'chicken soup' for your citrus..lol.

Shalom,
Don.

LOL @'chicken soup' for your citrus!
LOL
So then here is my D.E. question for the day :
If wet soil deactivates D.E's insecticidal properties, and wet soil is my problem,then when is the best time to apply ? Should I let it get dry and thirsty and then apply or should I water for the week and then dust just the leaves>?
Bat Guano is Rich stuff..But my worms and worm house are in the air mail as we speak..wont casings and casing tea do?
As for the citrus I will try for benign neglect instead of killing with kindness,and as for the vermiculture questions(wow I saw your pix!!) and Cozumel/Belize,well those are different threads! Also funny thing to me is that my husband is addicted to roses!!! He sneaks them into our limited space !!
Shalom yerself
A.

DE just won't work in moist conditions, it is certainly a good practice to apply when soil surfaces are a bit on the dry side in order to get the full effect from the material. Congrats on the worm bin. Castings are wonderful, but provide little in the way of Nitrogen. Citrus require approximately 1lb of actual nitrogen per year for normal growth. Young trees, of course, require less. But an N source like bat guano, blood meal (which also helps with iron issues), feather meal, or fish meal/ emulsion are some of your better sources for this essential nutrient.

Yep, we're pretty heavy into vermi composting. Our little horse poop recycling operation produces about 150 tons of quality compost a year. We use almost all of it here in our gardens...we're wiggler crazy!

Best,
Don

Hydrated lime is too caustic to apply to gardens or plants. Common lime is what you need unless the gypsum is the better choice for "dealing with" clay.

MN here.

Doctor's orders are good--if it's organic, it's hard to go wrong.

Thanks ljogilvie, I don't know what overcame to suggest hydrated lime instead of regular. I must have needed a glass of water....lol.