The Mittleider Method

I have been asked to start a Mittleider method thread. I am really not the best to do this but have not seen Jim Kennard on here lately although he is often on the Mittleider forum on Yahoo. You can find out more about the method at www.growfood.com.

I can answer questions if you have them but would get as much info as you can from www.growfood.com and then ask. I actually use my own method that I would call 70% Mittleider, 20% Square Foot and 10% Drew with lots of book learning thrown in for help.

I really love (my influences are) "The Vegetable Gardeners Bible" from Storey Publishing, All the Mittleider books, Square Foot Gardening, Cubed Foot Gardening and this website.

Drew

Thanks Drew! If enough DGers utilize this info, we can discuss it and help one another. I had never heard of this before you mentioned it. This is exciting!!!

Tamara

Drew,

I think my gardening is evolving into something very similar to yours. I presumed that Jim Kennard's absence here had something to do with the loss in his family. What is "Cubed Foot Gardening" ? Does it mean growing things up on trellises and other supports, as in "vertical gardening"?

MM

Just a book from another guy who uses some similar methods but cant say square foot... taken already. Jim is active on the Yahoo forum for Mittleider and yes he lost his wife but it was a long time in coming and I believe he was about as prepared as you can be for such things. Since then actually he found a wonderful Ukrainian girl who had been his transelator over in the Ukrain, she is of the same faith and they are engaged... actually by now probably married.

Drew

Drew, I am on the email list for the Mittleider method on Yahoo. Just happens I am not in a place to try it this year,

So, how does it differ from the Square Foot Method? How much more productive is it? Does it work well with organic methods?

Organic Methods and Mittleider do not totally mix although they say that the fertilizers they use are natural I also suscribe to ACRES USA magazine and they would totally dissagree as they do not believe that any free nitrogen adding (that is not through compost) has anything to do with organic and actually are pretty left wing gardening wise. They go as far as to say in a recent interview that peoples behavior is affected by the addition of salt based fertilizer to the food production cycle. Me.... I still use it but I am trying some beds with just EKO brand compost to see if I can get away from the addition of fertilizers. The thing that is cool about Mittleider is that because of the addition of a couple of complete blends of fertilizer you can grow in totally steril soil. Straight sand and sawdust if needed... Next post will be on productivity...

Very interesting. I would also not add anything salt based to my soil, except through compost and natural breakdown of matter (like hay). We have too much salt as it is resulting in a useless soil. Behavior huh? Possible, since Lithium is a salt which has been proven to calm even the most violent criminals. Maybe a gov't scandal to make us all passive to the rapid changes that go on in our society? (chuckle, not serious here)

Does ACRES USA have a web site?

Look forward to the next post. Hope someone else has some good questions too!

The next post just has to do with the method and how effective it is as far as yield goes... I have taken some gardening classes out at www.thanksgivingpoint.com and probably in 1997 or 1998 they actually had demonstration gardens out there actually grown by Dr. Mittleider and by Mel Bartholemew. My wife took classes from Mel himself on Square Foot Gardening and really did not pay that much attention to the Mittleider garden... It wasnt as "Cute" or quite as easy and frankly with the yields it produces the square foot method does have an edge I believe if you are growing for 1 small family just for fresh veggies and fun. If you are planning to preserve your harvest or if you are considering market gardening the staff who were there daily and saw both gardens have said that Dr. Mittleider outproduced Mel's garden 4 to 1 for the same amount of physical space. It is intensive and a poor mans substitute for hydroponic growing. The method removes most of the variables in growing and allows for a massive result for the space and effort. The one issue for me is adding as many fertilizers as are used in the method. I like a slightly more natural approach with compost and paying more attention to the soil. My results have actually been better, yield wise... with the mittleider method than with my more natural approach. None the less I am gonna still work on making this work without the fertilizers. I have just completed 11 new beds with 6 of them 4x4 footers and 5 anywhere from 4x8 to 4x12 to augment my 4 existing 4x8 beds. My new beds are filled with 1/2 straight EKO compost... and then the ammendments to create my own artificial soil mixture... More than that the other thing that I have added is Azomite... About 200 lbs for my 500 square feet of garden boxes. This should be a good experience for me to see what happens... If I can be more reliant on the compost. I have tilled all this into the clay under the boxes to a depth of about 6 inches below the boxes. I will be ready to plant by this weekend which is my frost date. Many of my plants are very leggy and large as I have fallen behind in my schedule to get these out.... I have a ton of WOWs that I think I will not be useing much of this year. I am also going to try mulching with Mylar blankets with the melons and the peppers.... Perhaps more.. (Drew's Method not Mittleider).

Drew

P.S. Much of what I am doing is not the Poor Mans way... I have placed these beds in my FRONT yard and with thoughts of keeping my wife and neighbors happy my boxes and supports are not true Mittleider either. You can do mittleider gardening in the dirt in beds made by mounding the dirt into shaped beds. Also for the next month I believe you can get all the mittleider method books on CD rom as well as another very good and usefull CD for $50 rather $85. Ask Jim about this for sure on his web site... (I have nothing to do with the food for everyone foundation in any capacity other than a utilizer of the method)

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My upper garden (I have had this one for 2 seasons) Pictures

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Lower beds

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With Beds filled

This is a picture from a post that Jim Kennard posted ages ago... I have been to his garden which is the poster garden for the method and have seen it many times as you can look over the wall and see it from the giraffe enclosure at the Hogle Zoo in Salt Lake City... It is truely amaizing... I have no idea what he does with all his produce...

Drew

Woops

Oh... Acres USA is great but has a very left wing political stance... I have a very right wing political lean... so that bugs me but I suppose I am somewhat of an anomily. My folks have an Organically Certified apple/peach/pear orchard in Penticton BC and they have had some cancer clinics... even been SHUT DOWN by the FTC (who later got their case thrown out of court by a Judge). My wifes dad is a very successful Chiropracter (sp) and we have literally 4 other osteopaths or chiropracters in the family... So I should lean left to fit in but none of us do and I really do have a holistic belief about most food growing practices that definatly slant my thinking to the Organic end of things... I even have a project in the works that is a home gardener/market gardener co-op type thing where I plan to use practicallyorganic.com as the website and the trademark... It is not an urgent thing for me but I got the trademark and reserved all the websites... ACRES is a great magazine that really covers a lot of ground with biodynamic growing and organics in food production... I just don't like the left wing slant to the politics... (I kinda feel wierd in a "Whole Foods" grocery store or a "Ben and Jerrys" as well...) Just don't fit the culture I guess even though I emphatically agree with much of the food production values.

I can still use fertilizer if I have to and will eat the food, I will try everything I can naturally but if it is between feeding me or feeding the bugs I will use an insectacide as a last resort... I am that kinda guy...

Drew

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Wow, that all looks great, and a bunch of info too!

Myself, I suppose I am gradually developing a TF method, as I learn what to do adn not to do from others and from my mistakes. Ruth Stout was my inspiration, and I am just adding some other techiniques to make it work for me.

I, too, and right politically and left personally (if that makes sense). Somedays I think I am eccentric, and others day too simple :-) I lean towards poor man's methods, but not if they involve more back breaking work. I want all of my work to make a foundation for my future work, so to speak.

I am double digging as deep as possible, up to 12 inches, before I put my beds down. More need to be built, as my set out date is May 12. Some things are already out, but it is unusually cold, so summer crops are not growing. That should take a turn in a few days.

Once last year I gave up and used an "organic" insecticide, but nobody won. This year I am trying to workl more with nature than against. After all, before the 20th century, ALL food was grown organically, and there ain't any NEW bugs that I know of. So it can be done, and it is all about the soil! (Ooops, may not be the right forum to e getting on my soap box)

TF

Drew, your garden and ideas are off the charts, beautiful my friend. Tamara, hello, again, and good luck with your garden and plans.
I'm a little confused about the right and left thing(stance) in regards to gardening, so you opened up Pandora's box, so if you may, fill in the gaps or pieces. Basically elaborate or enlighten on politics and gardening, the relationship(s).
Thanx, Danny

OMG, I hope there is no relationship between politics and gardening, that sounds like a nightmare!!!

Drew (I think) and I were both referring to our belief system as far as what you do to your soil goes. Like I said, that is something more easily discussed in the soil or organic forum.

Basically, for the sake of better yield, do you do things that in the long run are bad for the soil. Or, do you treat the soil naturally, for long term benefits, even though short term gain is less.

Drew mentioned a publication that I thought would be interesting to look into, and he was just giving me a heads up that it was very *Livberal* mis-spelled on purpose. I wouldn't want this wonderful new thread to get closed because the admen crew thought we were discussing p[olitcel beliefs. I have the smae problem, a consarvateve belief system, and a natural gardening system. Texas leans cons., but is not exactly up an up on orgganics, while Calif is the opposite, see what I mean? So I am just destined to live a somewhat contradictive life I suppose... sigh. Hope that clears things up and closes this Pandora Box, so we can focus on gardening :-)

Danny, if you really want to be enlightened, there is plenty of info on the internet about organics. Or search in the Organic or Classic Forum, there have been great discussions and debates on the subject, usually taking place out of the growing season LOL.

I was amazed (but disappointed) to find the Mittleider system to not be compatible with organic methods, but I still want to know more. I can always take the knowledge and tweak it to work for me.

Disclaimer: No offense to anyone, I lean towards holistic as well, and some of my best friends are liberrels...

TF

Tamara, that's the point I was basically lookin' for or trying to extract. Don't sigh, or think your contradictive, you chose a SIDE, and your intrinsic beliefs support that, period. I admire that in an individual, someone who believes in a particular concept of interest, and is willing to stand by it, no matter what, supposedly most do-not. Kudos my friend, and Good Luck Gardening. Your Friend, no matter what side or wing(Left-Right) Danny.

Well said Tamara... it really has nothing to to do with politics... just a belief system about fertilization. The concept behind Mittleider is keep people from starving so massive volume in a small space is what they are after... Tamara there is much besides feeding the plants that is included in the Mitt system. DONT give it all up just because of the fertilization and feeding techniques. Look at the spacing and the vertical growing and the raised beds and the irrigation system and the garden set up and the propigation methods and if you like the greenhouse plans... I am doing my best to use as much of each of these systems as I can that will work effectively to the ends I am shooting for.

Drew

Danny~I've been extracted???!!! J/K I do feel like I am split between those two "sides", depending on what the debate is ...Kudos to you too!

Drew, I promise I will not give up. I am very open minded (when it comes to gardening), I even try to learn things from farming methods LOL. Mostly what NOT to do. Of course I want good yield, doesn' t everyone? But I am NEVER looking at pound per acre. Even the guy who wrote four season harvest said, the more you grow, the less you can tend to, and the lower quality product you end up with. I would rather have ten of the best tasting Watermelons that I could easily get $5 or more each (when only 5-8 pounds each), and have VERY happy customers who cannot wait to sink their teeth into another the next year, than to have 50 watermelons of slightly above average taste, more than 10 pounds in size, that would maybe sell for $3-4, and of those 50 customers, only 5 would remember my name and want another one the next year, and then only because it was grown organically, not because it was so yummy.

That said, since my goal is flavor, that is related to nutrition, which is directly related to the soil.

"spacing and the vertical growing and the raised beds and the irrigation system and the garden set up and the propigation methods and if you like the greenhouse plans"

Absolutely, I am interested in more information. But I hope to get some of that from you, rather than buying all his books :-) Let's hear more about Mittleider!!!...

TF

Gotcha... What I want you to do it look at the website and ask me about stuff as I am afraid I cannot regurgitate 6 books worth of info in a post or 2 or even 40...

Drew

ahh, now come on, you can't??? heehee I suppose you are right. And asking questions IS the best way to get them answered... Anyone else lurking that is going to help me ask the questions? Let's have some more participation so I am not the only one learning here!

Tamara

Guess you are it.... I have had plants out for one week now... what a wierd rainy week... Like 3.5 inches which is unusual to say the least. The raised beds drain well so I am OK... I have cukes under lights and some of my melons are getting to 3 to 4 leaves so they are going out probably tomorrow...

Drew

Guess I forgot to click the watch button on this thread! Sorry. Been busy here too. It is finally getting hot.

Yes, I am glad for my raised beds, after rain, 6 inches of snow, and more rain. Then last night, I forgot to turn off the soaker hoses till 8 PM, and one had sprung a leak. But they drain well!

Are you growing your cukes and melons by the Mittleider Method too? Trellis?

Warm greetings, y'all, from Quitman, Mississippi!!

We're new members here. We just joined today and found the Mittleider thread.

This is our first year trying out the Mittleider Method and there's lots to learn, but we just LOVE the results we're seeing so far.

Would you believe -- our Mittleider-staked-and-pruned tomato plants are already 4 feet high and loaded with fast-growing tomatoes. We also have green peppers, summer squash and cucumbers growing next to our patio in mini "grow-boxes." In just a few more days it looks like we'll have a bunch of nice green peppers ready to pick.

If you're wondering what's happened to Jim Kennard, he and his new bride are in Armenia teaching folks there about the Mittleider method. They left about 10 days ago and plan to be overseas for 2 months. He says he'll be working in 113 gardens spread over 100 miles while he's there. Yikes!

For those who may be interested, Jim Kennard now publishes a free weekly "Sustainable Gardening" e-zine (email newsletter) with some great information (including illustrations) on Mittleider gardening techniques. Here's a link to a recent issue:

http://sustainable-gardening.subto.us/tip/soil-beds.html

We're looking forward to learning lots and sharing what we can with all of you great gardeners out there!

Respectfully Yours,
Sharon (Fearless Reader) Iezzi

Glad to have you aboard... Many have questions and I would love to see your results as I am having good results as well but have to squeeze gardening in between 60 hours a week at the office, deck building, 1/2 acre of yard mantenance, remodeling a 4 plex, 2 landscaping projects and more....


Drew

Welcome, Fearless_Weeders......... thanks for sharing the "Sustainable gardening " e-zine. I subscribed right-away. I'm interested in your pruned & staked tomato method of culture. This is my first season to try pruning to 2 stems and growing vertically. Any tips?
LD

Hello again y'all and thanks for the warm welcome!

Many questions that people in this thread have concerning the Mittleider Method will no doubt be answered in upcoming issues of Jim Kennards "Sustainable Gardening" e-zine. For those of you who would like to look at some back issues, go to:

http://www.myfavoriteezines.com/ezinedirectory/sustainable-gardening-articles.html

I do believe that tomato culture one of the things Jim plans to cover in an upcoming issue. This e-zine of his (which I co-publish) is offered free of charge to anyone who would like to subscribe. Here's where you can sign up if you wish:

http://sustainable-gardening.subto.us/

I'll try to get back to this thread later today with more info on tomato pruning and staking. If I can find it I have a cool picture to share, too, of tomatos grown the Mittleider way.

Respectfully Yours,
Sharon (Fearless Weeder) Iezzi

How about this one...

Or this one (It was posted before by Jim)

Or this one...

WOW to those pics!, thanks Drew!

Gald to have you here, Fearless_Weeder, and looking forward to learning more about this method! Thanks for the subscription info too :-)

Tamara (weed lover LOL)

Holey Moley....... looks just like it raining maters!!!!!!!!!!!!

LD

Hello Again All:

Great photos, Drew! It's photos like these that persuaded us to give the Mittleider Method a try. Our tomatoes right now are looking very much like the ones in the attached black and white photo. We're growing a variety of tomato called Atkinson, said to be suited especially well to the Deep South. Our vines are currently about 4 feet high and producing regularly spaced fruit clusters up the stem of 3-5 fruits each.

I've got one more picture to send with some comments about pruning and staking in my next post.

Respectfully Yours,
Sharon (Fearless Weeder) Iezzi

Here's another great Mittleider tomato photo to share. (Are y'all hungry yet?)

In answer to the question, "Why prune?" Dr. Mittleider says: "The main reason is to increase the number and the size of well-shaped fruit. But there are also other reasons ... when tomato plants are pruned to single-stem plants, they can be grown close together without sacrificing either yield or quality ... [and] ... as a precaution for disease control. Keeping the stems of plants dry and exposed to light and air at the soil surface is an effective way to reduce fungus disease epidemics."

Our plants are staked to 7 foot tall twisting metal stakes that (usually) don't require tying because the pruned main stems can be wrapped around the twists for support as they climb. These stakes are something new we're trying this year and they seem to work great!

Anyway, you've probably heard enough from me for now. Hope this info helps!

Respectfully Yours,
Sharon (Fearless Weeder) Iezzi

Can't wait to hear more...

Hum Tam your going to have to email me about this pruning stuff...explain what to chop off. LOL I can see me having one little branch left.

Hi Folks
I am new to DG and naturally found my way to the soil and compost section! I KNOW my plants are my second crop and my soil is my first crop! I am thinking of going with worm composting as i live in Berkeley ca (my veggies thrive on left wing politics with a dash of salt)and we have a curbside green pick up program so i never have enough dry stuff for my compost..always too wet with kitchen scraps. I have been going" square foot" and vertical for years though i Never follow any rules except NO MIRACLE GROW! My pumpkins are carnivorous,consuming a lot of fresh fish weekly,while my Berkeley raised kids are vegetarians! Glad to be here,hope my introduction didn't stray too far off topic!
Anne

Welcome to DG, Anne! You will find much information and many friends here :-)

Saint, I have never done this before, but from the photos it looks to me like there is only one little branch at the bottom, and tomatoes are growing right out of it, AMAZING!

I am familiar with removing everything for three to four feet up, then allowing two branches to grow out, similar to a grapevine. But I need to wait till I have established shade to go and do that LOL.

Those pictures sure say it all! And I subscribed to the ezine. lots of good info...