Japanese Iris patch doing it's thing.

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

I love this time of year when the Japanese Iris come into bloom. My only issue with these is that I don't know which variety they are. I have only read where all Japanese Iris started out as I. ensata (formerly I. kaempferi). How does one know what each of these two are?

Here's a pic of the patch. It is under the shade of a California Live Oak (Quercus agrifolia). I planted them here two years ago because our summers are so hot and dry that I thought they would cook. They grow nicely and appreciate the extra humidity in the afternoon shade-our summers are hot, hot, hot and very dry.

I would like to know if anyone in this forum can help me with keying these variations.

Thumbnail by drdon
Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

Here is a pic of one variety

Thumbnail by drdon
Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

And the other.


Best,
Don

Thumbnail by drdon
Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Are you certain those are Japanese irises? I'm not sure what that first one is, but the second sure looks like a Siberian to me.

Check the foliage. JI's have a distinct, raised rib down the vertical centerline of each leaf. If your irises are lacking that rib, they are not JIs.

Laurie

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

hiya laurief,

thanks so much for your expertise. The Iris in the first picture after the patch pic did indeed have a distinct raised center line. The one that has the bit of yellow on the tongue did not. Does this mean that this is a Siberian Iris...if so..then neophyte is not a kind enough monniker for me as an Iris person...how does Iris bonehead sound?...lol.

I was sold Japanese Iris at our best local Perennial nursery...it's a shame if they got it wrong..What's worse is that I've had many colleagues have heard me say that these are Japanese Iris....what a maroon..lmao.

Stanford, CA(Zone 9b)

Absolutely nothing maroon......about it. They are beautiful. Doesn't really matter what they are called. Not only are they beautiful, but they are happy. What more can you ask?

And if laurie is peeking in, I've heard different reports about which type of Iris require more water. I'm finding advice inconsistent. Can you help me?

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Hey drdon,

I'm no expert by any stretch of the definition, so don't take my suggestions as necessarily accurate. I do know that JIs have the raised rib, and I'm pretty sure that second single bloom pic is a Sib. What I'm not certain about is whether there are other beardless types, in addition to JIs, that have the raised ribs (although I know Sibs do not). If we're lucky, Neil will visit this thread and confirm the type of the first single bloom pic.

Regardless of iris type, I'd suggest you forget about trying to identify specific cultivar names. There are a great many Sibs that look very much like your last pic. The fact that your local nursery misidentified its entire species leads me to wonder if it might not just be an unregistered seedling from someone's garden that got potted up and sold to an iris-ignorant plant broker. The same may be the case with your other "Japanese" iris, as well.

This is a good example of why irises should be purchased from commercial iris growers, not from generalized nurseries or (heaven forbid) the "marts". The latter two often sell misidentified irises.

We've all had our less-than-expert moments with irises. If yours makes you a bonehead, just imagine what it makes the nursery owner who sold them to you as Japanese irises! ;-)

Enjoy them. An iris by any name is a beautiful sight to behold!

Laurie

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

Fabulous close laurief,

that's the only reason I'm growing them.

I've no doubt that the local nursery is convinced that they are selling 'JI's'. this is disconcerting to me because I've bought several serious perennials from these folks.

the reality of this patch is that it pleases both me and my wife. For us that is reason enough. Knowing the true origin and the real/assumed species/cultivar is secondary. I feel bad that it's really not a moral imperative that we know the specifics of these plants. It would, however, be helpful.

Thank you so much for your help in this matter.

Be well,
Don

Stanford, CA(Zone 9b)

Don,

If this is a nursery that you know well and have used often, they almost surely want to know that they have received plants that are mismarked. Don't be afraid to go back and let them know, they might even give you a new Iris. :-) In any case, you will have given the nursery an opportunity to redeem themselves in your eyes. Don't let a good nursery get away over one mistake, that might not even be theirs. They are few and far between. Just assume they want to know.

Getting a mismarked Iris from a local nursery is such a common occurence, I'm surprised that anyone gets the Iris they think that they are getting. You are in good company. I ordered a Red Niobe Clematis last year from my nursery and it was - Purple! They gladly took it back. And then I ordered mail order from Chalk Hill Nursery who specializes in Clematis. I still use my local nursery for general plants and shrubs, annuals etc, . Because I have a good relationship with them I can ask them to order bizarre things. But I don't buy any kind of bulbs or rhizomes anymore except mailorder. Even then sometimes you get a ringer or two. But the specialty houses will replace a mismarked iris. I'll bet your local place will do it too.

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Doss,

The reason you're finding so much conflicting information on cultural techniques is because there is so much inconsistency in the behavior of irises themselves. Different cultivars within the same iris type may perform better with more or less water, more or less sunlight, or more or less fertilizer. Also, the same cultivar may perform differently using identical cultural techniques in different gardens with different soils and climates. That's why any culture recommendations you read are, at best, general guidelines - a place from which to begin each growing experiment in your own garden.

So, here are my own contributions to the "generalizations" about beardless iris gardening. Most beardless iris types prefer/require acid soil (Spurias being the exception). Most beardless irises prefer a well-drained but moisture-retentive soil high in organic matter that is kept consistently moist, esp. through bloom. Some beardless prefer their soil to dry out between natural rainfalls after bloom. Many beardless may rot if grown in wet soil that never dries out, esp. during high heat (pseudacorus is an exception - it can be grown quite happily with rhizomes submerged in water). They all should be mulched well to keep the soil around their roots and rhizomes cool and moist. In hot summer climates, beardless irises generally need some afternoon shade to protect them from searing sun. In areas with more moderate summer temps, beardless irises will benefit from full sun (foetidissima being the exception - it does best grown in dappled shade).

Hope that helps,

Laurie

Stanford, CA(Zone 9b)

Thanks a million Laurie, It helps to know why things are so confusing. Your answers are always so complete and concise. Even describing something that is totally out of control. I've bought a few Arilbreds - which I know are bearded - this year but I've always wanted to try Japanese Iris and haven't because of water situations. But I think that I might be able to try a few now. Experiment within limits it sounds like to me.

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

OMG, you guys are really serious about this stuff.
Thank you for your diligence and your expertise. For your knowledge sharing I am very grateful.....however.

I'm still kind of where I started....sheesh.

I will certainly share the misnomer with my friends at Buena Creek Nursery... they used to Be Cordon Bleu Gardens...a world wide supplier of Hemerocallis hybrids. This is a serious matter for them indeed. I, on the other hand, am a bit of a science nerd (training is a terrible thing to waste..lol) and have found DG to be a real stickler for precision. A trait I truly respect and appreciate. I will, indeed go to them with the Siberian possibility and also ask of them to be a little more precise with the ID when it comes to we who are not 'annointed' into the world of Iridaceae. I have found your contributions both informative and yet....confusing...can I still qualify for help?

Thanks you guys,
Don...he who is prone to microscopy and identifying bacteria....but is lost right now...Can I please get a Stoli martini with that Siberian Iris?....lol.

Best,
Me

Stanford, CA(Zone 9b)

OK Don, straight and simple. As if someone who is prone to microscopy and identifying bacteria ever does anything simply. I you want to know what kind of Iris you have start by taking a leaf of each back to the nursery - or just assume that what Laurie has told you is true. That you have one Siberian and one Japanese Iris. That is if you really need to know. I would cut my losses, enjoy what I have and buy some Japanese Iris from some of the really fine growers of beardless iris out there. I can give you the links if you want them. Once you get a "real" Japanese Iris into the ground, you can compare. Do the experiment. It's the scientific method after all. :-)

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Poor Don! I'm sorry if I added to your confusion. Please don't hesitate to ask whatever questions you may have. If you're really lucky, someone here might even be able to come up with a reasonably intelligent answer (if it's a basic enough question, I might even give it a shot).

Just to give you a little familiarity with the different looks of both Sib and JI flowers, you might want to glance through the online catalog at Ensata Gardens:

http://www.ensata.com

Keep paper towels at hand. If you're anything like me, there'll be a whole lot of drooling going on.

Laurie

P.S. Just to clarify, my best guess is that you have one Sib and one I-don't-know-what-the-heck-it-is-but-maybe-a-JI.

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

Thanks laurief and doss,

I've come to really appreciate these plants, their hardiness here, and the lovely show of color they provide. I'm going to do as you suggested and just accept them as members of the garden and when time permits properly go about keying them. You both have been an immeasurable help in this little ID dilemma, and I'm very grateful for your sharing your expertise.

and the Iris species c.v. '?' lol. is no less cherished without a proper name.

Be well,
Don

Lafayette, IN(Zone 5a)

drdon:
Here is a link to a good company. The gentleman is a retired veterinarian and now has a 13 1/2 acre 'farm' for growing Japanese, Siberian and is getting into the Louisiana iris. I chatted with him a few days ago and it was a real pleasure to talk to him. Enjoy! (Prices aren't bad either!)

http://www.irises.com/

deb

ps:
Am sending a package out to you on Monday.........be on the look out for it!

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

hiya Irisluvr,

Wow, a package?...cool. I hope you get your Zephyranthes candida today in the mail. They'll add a certain brightness with their little white faces. I'm taking your advice and checking out the website.

Holy Smokes!, no wonder you guys are so enthusiastic about these flowers...what a show!

Thanks Irisluvr...I'll be checking the mail...you're a gem.

Best,
Don

Lafayette, IN(Zone 5a)

I did get the Zephyranthes candida in the mail today! Thanks a bunch! I have a pot ready for them to go in!

deb

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

Super Duper!

Hope they bring you as much enjoyment as they have us.

Best to you,
Don

Shelburne Falls, MA(Zone 5a)

Hi,
Just found this thread. I have an iris bed with both sibs and JIs mixed. The sibs bloom earlier than the JIs (except for my reblooming Reprise sib which ends with the JIs). It seems odd that they are blooming together but I don't know the sequence of blooms of either iris growing in CA. There is also a pink species iris that looks more like a sib but blooms with the JIs-Rose Queen. Here are my JIs in 2004.

Thumbnail by boojum
Lafayette, IN(Zone 5a)

boojum........those are beautiful! anytime you feel the need to divide, i'm here with my hand out! i love the ji and si! i'm sure i could come up with something to trade for them!!

deb

Shelburne Falls, MA(Zone 5a)

I'll keep you in mind! That was the second year at the new garden. The first year they hardly bloomed. This year I'll be making the clumps as big as I can for the JI judges who will be visiting my garden. But after they come, I could looky see!

Thumbnail by boojum
Lafayette, IN(Zone 5a)

Good luck with the JI judges! They should give a good show for the judges!

deb

Shelburne Falls, MA(Zone 5a)

iris,
Not sure if I explained that very well. The iris judges are coming to the area for our JI show and my garden is for their amusement while they visit. I was very honored that my iris society friend asked me. A lot less pressure than being judged although I do want it to be beautiful! my garden was on a garden tour once and that is a bit of pressure to make everything perfect.

So, drdon, do sibs and JIs bloom at the same time in CA? Anyone know? You've got me wondering here...

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

hiya boojum,

It would seem so. After some time on the web attempting to key these flowers it would seem that I do indeed have one variety/ cultivar of Siberian Iris along with JI's that I have found nothing like so far. There is no yellow on the flower at all and all of the pics I've found so far. I'm nothing if not diligent, so before I suggest to anyone that these are indeed JIs I've got a bit more investigation to do. I am very grateful to all of you for your assistance in this matter.

boojum, your flowers are fabulous!

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Don,

Would it be possible for you to take several more close-up pics of that "what the heck is it" iris and post them here? Perhaps one from overhead straight down, then one horizontally level to the flower (very close), then a close-up of one of the falls showing any signal or haft markings? The angle and distance of the shot you posted above makes it very difficult to visually interpret the flower.

In spite of the fact that it has ribbed foliage, the form of the flower (or what I can tell of it from that pic) really doesn't suggest JI.

Laurie

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

you've got a deal. I'll wait a bit until the light is better and they aren't overexposed by direct midday sun. Any assistance in keying these rascals is appreciated. They really were fabulous this morning.

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

here they are.

Is this Japanese Iris, c.v. WTF?....lol.

Thumbnail by drdon
Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

And a Siberian Iris?

Thumbnail by drdon
Lafayette, IN(Zone 5a)

well, even if you never find out the name of the JI, it's gorgeous and if you ever decide to trade some of it, I want to be first in line!

butiful, just butiful!

deb

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

I still don't know what WTF is. If it didn't have ribbed foliage, I would be tempted to guess Sib. It just doesn't look like any pic of any JI I've seen. It does remind me of pics I've seen of tectorum, except that tectorum has a narrow crest running partway down the center of each fall. The crests are absent from your pics.

Maybe it is a JI. I'm not taking any bets, though. ;-)

Laurie

Hannibal, NY(Zone 6a)

I'm guessing the WTF is a Siberian. Especially considering they are blooming at the same time (if you took both pics 4/11) --- Laurie, don't the tectorums have wider leaves? Some of the new Siberians look so much like JI it's hard to tell from the flower (for me anyway). Looking at the first picture at the top of the forum, however, it really doesn't look like the growth habit of JI or Sib (although, I have personally never seen either grown under the conditions Don has grown them in). The sprawling tendancy does look like a tectorum. Oh Boy, I've confused myself. I can't wait to hear the decision from our iris experts here. Polly

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

It can't be Sib if it has ribbed foliage ... I don't think. At least I've never heard of a Sib with a central rib like the JIs have. I don't know what a tectorum looks like in real life since each time I try to grow it, it croaks over its first winter here. Unless it has crests that are present but hidden from view in the photos, it can't be tectorum, anyway.

I'm stumped. I haven't a clue what it is.

Laurie

Shelburne Falls, MA(Zone 5a)

My friend was talking about Spurias but then I looked at Pacific Coast irises and they look like the fuller flower. She said no way to a sib or JI with that signal. (second pic)

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Don, how tall is the flower stalk on WTF? That'll give us a clue as to whether or not it's short enough to be a PCI or tall enough to be a spuria.

Temecula, CA(Zone 8b)

About 14 inches long on average. A couple are longer.

Shelburne Falls, MA(Zone 5a)

Definitely not JI. As you can see in my pic JI are much taller.

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Hmm. Well, that does fit into the height category of some of the PCIs, and some of them do have ribbed foliage. We might just have a winner here! Of course, I've never actually seen a PCI in person, but judging solely from the photos, I think it's the best guess so far.

Shelburne Falls, MA(Zone 5a)

Well, thank you. I've been sorta going nuts since I too have never owned one!! But I have lots of sibs and JIs. Only thing-couldn't find this particular flower in any of the websites! Can anyone find it?

Deer River, MN(Zone 3b)

Since Don purchased it as a JI, I'd assume it's an unregistered seedling. If it was a registered cv, the nursery should have known its name AND its correct iris type.

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