moving a lilac - advice please!

I'm about to move a lilac (syringa vulgaris). Can anybody give me some advice?

It's only about 4 1/2 feet high but it has a 3-4" caliper very woody main trunk, so I expect it's been there quite awhile. It's grown out almost horizontally just a few inches above the ground for a couple of feet, and then resumed upward growth. This it has done in order to get out from under a holly bush (hey, I didn't plant them!).

So one thing I'm wondering is about the root structure of s. vulgaris. Am I going to be able to dig it up without killing off the holly? How wide do I need to go around the trunk of the lilac?

The main trunks of the holly and the lilac are about 2 1/2 feet apart, maybe a bit more.

Advice on this or anything that's special to transplanting lilacs, would be much appreciated.

I am assuming I should move it as soon as the ground is not too wet to work. It's had buds since late January, but not opening out yet -- soon though.

thanks

Oh lord...you've got your work cut out for yourself. I did something similar with one of my 10 yr old lilacs last year. 5 ft tall, main truck measured about 4", and I dug out 5 ft and still was finding heavy roots. I settled for a 4 ft by 3 ft root ball.
Good news is even though I didn't get all of the root ball I was trying or the Lilac has rebounded beautifully and is budding out now.
I wouldn't worry to much about damaging the holly bush, you can't kill those things even if you try.

Marc

darn, I was hoping somebody was going to tell me how easy it would be!
but I was also hoping to hear that I probably wouldn't kill either one -- they both have such reputations as tough plants (great if you like them; bad if you don't). so thanks for that RikerBear!

and thanks so much for telling me how far out you had to go. I would have started in way too close.
and it sounds like your lilac and this one are about the same size. I put a tape measure around the trunk near the ground and got 8".

I will bump straight into:
fence to one side (about 1 ft. from the trunk)
brick path to another side (about 1-2 ft. from trunk)
holly bush to third side (2 1/2 ft. from trunk)
4th side is open (hurrah)

I can probably dig under the fence some, but maybe I'll have to take up some of the brick walk - oooph.

when you say you took a 4x3 rootball in the end, do you mean 3ft. down? Or how deep did you have to go? (yikes. either way, my hands are definitely going to object to this project...).

foolish human that I am though, I just can't leave well enough alone...

paani

4 ft down three ft around.....I used an axe, a spade, and a large crowbar to get the dang thing to finally break loose. Near the end I no longer cared if it lived or died.....the air was filled with lovely colorful words I might add. LOL
Good Luck! :-)
My back hurts just remembering that whole experience.....yuck!

rb, you had me laughing out loud reading that (not at your remembered pain - just at the, ahm, *vivid* picture you painted). 4 feet *down*! uh oh... I wore my hands out just digging up and dividing some hostas last year (big hostas mind you ;-). This lilac may win and stay in its spot yet. Though I really have (had?) gotten determined to move it. We shall see. I'll let you know if I do move it and survive to tell the tale.
either way, thanks for the warning!

LOL I'm glad I made you laugh out loud :-) If you decide to just pull it out and haul it off, I have a nice gal sized baby I'd be happy to send you. Honetly :-)

Marc

Don't forget to amend for alkalinity.....lilacs loathe acid soil! K :~D

marc/rb,

That's a very kind offer. Can I keep it in reserve? That way, I can give it a good try, but I'll also know that if I'm heading for *four foot* down (hah) and just can't take it anymore, I can crawl out and come asking for a nice manageable replacement instead!

I have the feeling I'm ignoring the voice of wisdom here. But I'm the sort who has a hard time properly thinning seedlings cause I just hate to pull up a perfectly good plant. So you can imagine my reluctance to chop down a fine old lilac just because someone planted her without an eye to the future. I may change my tune though!

For perspective, in 1988 I brought home a huge lilac planted on my wife's grandmother's farm in Iowa in 1875. The project was featured in Fine Gardening magazine the following year ("Rescuing the Old Paton Lilac"). I hand-dug a 5000-pound rootball 6 feet in diameter and 3 feet deep, lifting it into my trailer with a large trackhoe. But that was an historic tree with a family ancestry connection. If your lilac is not that important to you, try loosening the soil around the periphery, trench down on the back side, and gently pull it out with a tractor and log chain (wrapped around the back side of the root ball, not the trunk). Leave whatever soil sticks to the roots, neatly trim the broken root ends, and replant immediately. If you do it right now, before it begins to bud out, it might be OK.
Guy S.

Paani, my baby lilac is your if you decide you need/want it....good luck trying to move it.
Oh and I too have a horrible time thinning out my seedlings, as I just hate to kill/toss a perfectly good baby 'whatever'.
Guy S, what a great story! I love hearing about people saving historic things, plants and trees especially. Would love to see a picture of your 100+ yr old lilac....how cool is that!

KachinaGirl, thanks for the heads up on acidic soil. I think that should be ok where I plan to move it (by the peony bed), but will pay proper attention now.

Starhill, what a grand story. I second RikerBear's request for a picture. Have you got one you can post for us??

tractor and log chain.... Well, sad to say, this has to be done with human power only. I haven't even got a horse anymore -- and cats are useless in these matters... It's in an urban back yard with garden gate-width access only, and not only that, it's in a pretty hemmed in corner near the porch, fence, etc. So we'll (I'll) just be digging and pulling.

I take heart from your story though, and will follow your advice about roots ends. If we work out pounds per year, the root ball on mine should be possible to lift with the help of a neighbor or two?? I'll say so anyway, which will get me started.

RB, you may be hearing from me yet!! Is that 1 gallon gal of yours planted or in a pot? I wouldn't want you to keep from planting it on my account (after all, I just *might* succeed at this! and there *are* nurseries around here, so they say). But I'll tell you, I starting to get fond of the idea of having a "Syringa Riker Ursiana" in my garden ;-)

It's in a 1 gal pot on my patio....has been for 2 years now (probably should upgarde it's pot size this year). I potted it up thinking I'd plant it in another part of the yard, but just can't find room really.
It really is yours if you need it.....but do try and move the other first....just for fun. :-)

fun, yeah, right.
no no RB, it's *talking* about it that's fun!

I'm quite sure I'll crawl inside to the computer in defeat,
but I am going to give it a go - maybe this weekend.

glad to hear I'm not the only softie where seedlings are concerned.

Can't wait to hear your 'moving' story :-)

uh oh, now I'm really committed aren't I?
I went out to take a look at it today, and for a second I thought it had started to bloom
(oh well, guess I can't move it now.... I was just saying to myself. Then I got closer and saw it was the *holly* that's started blooming).
well, maybe it'll rain this weekend :-)

Here's the "Old Paton Lilac" (from Paton, Iowa) settled into its new home, as seen from our front door in central Illinois. If you can find back issues of Fine Gardening from 1989 at your library, you can see the whole transplanting process, step by step. But keep in mind that I was a much younger man when I moved it!

Guy S.

Oh so beautiful! Thank you for sharing Guy.

Marc

Guy, yes, thank you so much. It's a glorious thing just to see in a picture. How extraordinary to see it from your front door!

What about also putting this photo into the appropriate Plant Files entry with a little note about its history? I just think anyone who visits DG would love to see it, but not many will run across it in this thread!

and thanks again, for a real feast for the eyes,

paani

Thanks, but I haven't gotten into the plantfiles section. I can barely keep up with forum threads, especially now that transplanting season has begun! (Balled and burlapped 29 trees out of our nursery yesterday and today -- 81 more to go.) If someone wants to copy the photo over to there please feel free.

I'm sure I "wasted" much more time and effort on that tree than it would have been worth to anyone else, but sometimes you just gotta do things like that.

Guy S.

guy,

Sure, I'll give a try to putting it into PlantFiles - with credit to you, and will keep its story with it too. Just let me know: is it a "plain" old syringa vulgaris as far as you know? (I'll need to make sure I'm putting it in the proper file).

29 trees bagged and burlapped. I guess you're not spending much time at the computer these days! Do you have a retail nursery?

RikerBear, I'm sure you've just been waiting with baited breath to hear my moving story. Well, out I sauntered, just getting ready mind you, not yet with shovel in hand. And lo and behold she had popped those buds between Friday and today. Anything to avoid eviction apparently.

I was going to take a pic to put up here and check with you folks on whether I could still move it. But it seems pretty sure that it would be a bad idea. Definitely out of dormancy.
(my back and hands say hurrah, but so much for plans for that spot for this season...!).

Do you think I could get away with moving it after it flowers, or should I wait till fall now? or even next spring?

Here's heresy - why not just leave 'em to go on the way they are - if it's trunk is that big and they're both blooming why not just let them.?

If they are that close together, beleve me their root systems are liberally and thoroughly intertwined. In the wild you frequently see odd partners. still, what were those folks thinking? 2 1/2 feet apart? Sounds like one of my bright moves.

If yu *could* get the tractor in there, you might just end up pulling both of them. LOL

Yes, it's S. vulgaris, from 1875 (I counted the rings on a broken stem), probably sold by a nursery vendor making his rounds out of a horse-and-buggy. It was growing in Paton, Iowa near an old house site. We moved it to central Illinois in 1988.

The digging is for our own arboretum, not for sale. But we do contribute surplus rare trees each spring to the Illinois Native Plant Society fundraiser plant sale (which includes both native and non-native species). The funds are used for grants to improve native plant habitats, etc. If anyone on this forum is in central Illinois, come to Washington Park Botanic Garden in Springfield at 9:00 on April 30 for the chance to obtain some TRUE collectors' items! We will have more than 10,000 trees, shrubs, wildflowers, prairie plants, etc this year.

Guy S.

Guy, I have put the "Old Paton Lilac" in the queue for the PlantsFiles. When it gets through the process I'll add the story as you've told it here (will add as a comment to the picture). That seemed the best way. For a title I put: The Old Paton Lilac. Planted in Iowa, 1875. Moved to Illinois in 1988 by GuyS (StarhillForest).

blooms, heresy? that's pretty much my bible actually! We've got saplings coming up through the brick in the patio because that's just where they happened to root, and well, what harm are they doing.... and so on! (tidy gardeners would be appalled...)
I had a few rather foolish and fewer not-so-foolish reasons for wanting to move it. But I think you're right, they may just stay entangled so long as they stick to their corner. On better look the "holly" turns out to be mahonia (oregon grape holly) http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/19209/. Or it might be leatherleaf mahonia http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/1898/index.html. It's getting the better of the bargain it seems. But the lilac is holding its own, just not growing like it otherwise might. Curiously, the mahonia, which is in bloom right now, smells strikingly like a lilac!

Guy,
the "old Paton Lilac" now has yet another home: http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/67259/
Who could have imagined that in 1875?! (or for that matter, 1988...).

The Springfield sale sounds wonderful. Not so very far from here. Maybe I'll get there!

RikerBear,

it looks like my lilac is staying put at least until the fall. So yours can stay put too. Thank you again for your very generous offer. Sorry for no "moving story", but maybe in a few months!

paani

Well why not take the baby lilac and plant it where you were planning to move the other one to. You'll have one already established by the time you (if you do) decide to remove the older one.

Paani, if you get to the plant sale, look for the tall guy (6'-6") selling the trees and say hi! It starts at 9:00 am, and runs until 2:00 pm. The REALLY rare stuff often goes pretty fast, but the 50% discount begins right after lunch.
Guy S.

Guy, If i get there I will certainly look for you.
Do you think anybody will have a Franklin tree there (franklinia alatamaha)? http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/43/index.html
I might get myself up and over to Springfield by 9am for that!

The Old Paton Lilac is a hit over in PlantFiles.. Go here http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/67259/ and click on "click here to discuss this photo" and you'll see the comments.

RikerBear,

You're quite right - if I planted yours, this one might be approaching Paton status before I got around to moving it! Seriously though, I really wasn't moving it to ____, but rather moving it away from where it is. I was hard pressed to find a suitable spot to put it. So I think your 1-gallon gal should stay right there. Now that Seattle has decided to go in for sunshine, she should be quite content!

btw, now that I missed the chance to move it while dormant, when *is* my next best time to move it? (or should I wait till next February and make sure I get to it in time?)

Okay, if your sure. :-)
At htis point I would wait and move it next Fall after she loses her leaves and goes to sleep.

I think the INPS sale will have a few small Franklinia this year. If not, contact me off the forum and I'll steer you to some.
Guy S.

Guy, that's good news, about the Franklinia. I will hold off and not put something else in the spot yet. And I may contact you before. thanks.

RikerBear,
I'm really not one for turning down such a fine plant and generous offer. But I really don't have a good place for it (and if I put it in the so-so spot, then there'd really be no place for the one here that *might* (!) get moved in the fall). So in her Seattle pot she stays (are you going to plant her?). Who knows, maybe you've got the Paton Lilac of, let's see, 2140 there. Better plant it just in case!!

By the way, the INPS plant sale will have a couple of starts made from the Paton Lilac too . . .

Guy S.

Guy,

if you're still watching this thread -- I did mean to say: WOW - a cutting from the Paton Lilac would be some hardy stock it seems to me.

I was talking with a local arborist the other day and he was telling me that he knows nursery people around here who have done ok with franklinia for 3 or 4 years, and then lost them. He still said I should give it a try. But I wonder. Is this a bad area for them or are they just that touchy?
From what I'd read I thought that a fairly protected site here (on the 6a side rather than 5b side!) would suit it pretty well. There are 3 over at the botanical gardens, so I know it's not impossible...

It's very touchy. Needs moist, well drained, gritty, organic, acidic soil and protection from extremes. Give it a try -- you'll always wonder if you don't!
Guy S.

true enough!

I put in a Serviceberry (a. laevis), but the "franklin spot" is still open. I think it's a good spot. Protected from wind, but gets air. Good sun, but protection from the strongest afternoon sun too. It's great garden loam that's been built up over a long time here in the land of clay (the house is 103, maybe the garden is too...). So, I can add some sand (gravel?) and acidify. why not. Thanks for the encouragement.
If I don't make it to the sale, I'll write and ask you about where I could get one. Still hoping to see you there though!

Sure, you'll make it there. Remember, there will be several thousand other plants too, of all sorts, at bargain prices, and many species you cannot find for sale anywhere else. Here's the drill: arrive at 9:00 sharp to get the one-of-a-kind stuff that will go fast; then go shopping or cruise the Lincoln historic sites in Springfield for a couple of hours; then come back right after lunch when all the leftovers are discounted 50%, and clean up! Bring a couple of friends and a van or covered pick-up (or semi?).
Guy S.