Taking from the wild?

There's A LOT of ferns and jack in the pulpits growing wild in the woods in the back of my house. Is it a bad thing to take a few for planting else where or for trading? I wouldn't do it if it was bad.

I think taking plants for the purpose of trading is generally frowned upon and may even be illegal depending on what species the plant is. (Wild orchids should NEVER be disturbed) But I don't see why it would be wrong to gather Jack-in-the-pulpit seeds or whatever from time to time for trading. When my husbands parent's owned their camp, I managed several stands of native wild flowers there. I would scatter the seed in the late summer and fall, but I did trade seed on occasion.

There are always extenuating circumstances, though. There is a stand of wild Trout Lilys (Erythronium americanum) down over the hill from my house, and you can bet that if they were ever going to develop that acreage that I would be down there with my shovel in the swamp digging up every one I could get before the bulldozers got there!

If the property belongs to someone other than yourself, then taking anything regardlesss of intent, and without the express permission of the owners is...well...stealing. :-(

Yup.

They're on my property, and well one others too. I would only have collected from my own though.

if on your property and not on your states endangered list most states will let you use them in your own garden. most states will frown upon taking wild plants out of the state though. if they seed then you can trade the seeds.

if they are for your own garden then you should be able to use them since the are on your property.


each state has its own rules about native plant uses. look up native plant collecting for your state. they usually have the endangered one s listed so you know not to touch those and their policies on plants.

hope this helps.

Thanks!

If the plants are collected on your own property, you can collect all you want!

Endangered species laws DO NOT APPLY EITHER as long as you don't sell, and don't transport across state lines, bottom line is: It's YOUR private property.

Having said that, I'm not condoning removal of threatened or endangered plants and one should always know what species are T/E in their state and here's a link to the Federal list of endangered species: http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/TESSWebpageVipListed?code=F&listings=0 There is certainly a similar list for your state.

Ferns are generally propagated via spores whilst Jack In The Pulpits require cold stratification and are generally a double dormancy seed. It has been my experience that most people who received my seed, tossed it when it didn't germinate in the first year. They forgot it would take 2-3 years to germinate. These things happen so I no longer offer double dormancy seeds unless the individual is somewhat experienced in winter sowing natives. If you have a native stand of Jacks, I'd seriously consider not disturbing them. To the best of my knowledge, BogMan is correct and it is your private property so endangered species laws will not apply providing you don't sell or transport. Be very very careful if you are dealing with any appendix 1 species.

I would generally agree with not disturbing endangered species, however, it doesn't hurt anything if you're careful to take a plant or two. I was very glad that I'd broken up a large colony of jack in pulpit several years ago when a gas well drilling company decided to drill on the farm that has since become ours. When I moved the plants, I was only hopeful of ownership and on a series of 5 year leases. The well drillers were reckless with their run off pits and one over topped the dyke and ran down a nearby gully. If I hadn't been moving jacks around, we would have lost all of them. As it was, I have lost, between the well, pipelines and timbering off, several interesting violas.

Bear in mind that if you move a jack in pulpit plant, they have a bulb which is almost always very deep.

CaptMicha,
I have trout lilies,jack in the pulpets,trillium.I do take a few and trade them.Don't take anymore than 10% I even think those are in some rules in book I read about collecting plants from the wild.I have good stands of all of them. If it's not endangered in your state and it's your property you can bull doze it if you want to.Not that I'd ever do that,but you can.My 2 cents worth.
Believe me all these crazy farmers around here have done just that.It's so sad and they're loosing tons of topsoil a year because they think they have to plow in the fall to get a jump start on spring planting.They've torn and are still buring all the old hedge rows that kept the soil in place.I had the dept. of agriculture out here to look at this place when Mom first bought it,something about they'd pay 80% for field tile.We couldn't afford it,But the paper said we were lossing 40 tons a year in topsoil,sounds like a lot to me.We wanted it for hay crops (alfalfa) anyway.Which is the best thing that could have been planted here,to controll erosion.They sould lobby and make some laws for these farmers,it makes me ill.To see them burning perfectly healthy soil binding trees every year to make room for another 30 bushels of corn/soybeans.I'd better stop now before I start cussing the government.If we don't take care of what is left,soon there will be nothing for our grandchilden,children.I can't even drink my well water,brand new well 5500 to put it in 48' deep.Sent in the samples,the water is very clean all except to much nitrates.Stupid farmers and govenment.GREED! lol. I'm stopping now.Hope this answers your question.heehee Jody
I'm trying my best to protect my little part, of Our World.

I am not a proponent of removing native species from private property. I am a proponent of removing and relocating any native plant material slated for the bull dozer. I have to admit that I don't even particulalry care if it is an appendix 1 plant or not at that point and I will give what I gather to others who have the space to nurture and propagate it. The very few times I have participated in plant rescues, we had express written permission from the property owners. Although I would send an appendix 1 plant out of state as a "gift" in a hearbeat, there is no way I would participate in a plant rescue without written permission to do so.

Hi Jody, is there a Wild Ones Chapter any where in your area? They are very well organized and they participate in plant rescues frequently. You sound like a neat kinda gal!

Wild Ones
http://www.for-wild.org/

Some chapters of the Illinois Native Plant Society also do plant rescues-
http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/inps/

And there is Plants Of Concern which is housed over at The Chicago Botanic Garden-
http://www.chicagobotanic.org/plantsofconcern/

I just recently signed up with Plants Of Concern to monitor plants in my county. There is a seminar coming up for new volunteers but sadly, the few seminars being offered are all up my way. I noticed you lived in Central Illinois. If this interests you, you would be more than welcome to stay with me, my husband, our boys, and our pets to be able to attend to avoid having to deal with the $200 a night hotel situation and expensive meals out this way. This is a very active house is about all I can say but it would be free and there are a few from this area going to the introductory training session in early April so you wouldn't be all by yourself.

I'm recovering from Hep C meds and not ready to do to much yet.I'd love to go to the seminar.Where's it at and when.I have dogs,cats,horses.It kind of hard to get away.I'll check out the links,this is right up my protesting alley.lol.Jody

Er uh, you'd feel right at home here. We've got dogs to trip you when you walk, cats to sleep on your head, and horses you can smell from across the road here. Toss in a few younguns running around playing cops and robbers and well... you get the idea. We do have nice sound batting insulation in the walls and floors if that counts for anything.

2005 Plants of Concern Monitoring Workshops
Saturday, April 2 Ryerson Woods, Riverwoods, Lake County
Sunday, April 10 Blackwell Forest Preserve, Warrenville, DuPage County
Sunday, April 17 Sand Ridge Nature Center, South Holland, IL
Sunday, May 1 Glacial Park, Ringwood, McHenry County

To come back to the original question posted by CaptMicha -
Why would you? Why don't you simply go there and enjoy them in their habitat? And take plenty pictures!
( Have done it for years....)

I know! I have too! I just wanted to share their beauty, they provide excellent food for wildlife-those berries you know- but I can see how this might be a bad idea.

I know what you're talking about with those farmers.... I'm not sure I understand, the gov't pays them not to farm b/c there's too much already but.... nvm, I can't put into words what I'm thinking.

I'm actually filling in our yard with natives and other wildlife helping plants, you don't have to worry that I'd do harm to the enviroment. I go out of my way to avoid any destruction and try to encourage other people not to also.

JodyC,

Lawn obsessed suburbanites do as much, if not more, damage to the environment than farmers do, I'd be willing to wager. I'd rather live next to a field of corn than one of those dang ugly subdivisions with cookie cutter houses that are going up around here! Which will of course bring out more lawn obsessed suburbanites. April

Valid point dodecatheon. I have always been of the opinion the chemicals used to keep our lawns of introduced grasses golf course green, "weed" free, and basically looking like perfectly manicured football field turf are at the root of many chemicals leeching their way into our water tables. The fungicides alone in many lawn care products are enough to make my hair stand on end not to mention the insecticides and herbicides. And then there are the chemical fertilizers.

Walking through my Pennsylvania woods, I can only remark:
Deer are causing tremendous damage to native plants. ( you call them "value-plants"?) You lose the native plants and the runaways take their place.
Control the numbers of dearest Bambi and you may truly have done something worthwile in protecting your precious native plants. I speak from experience, tracking certain wild orchids and such in Lackawanna county/ PA for many years.
Any thoughts?

Yes let the preditors back where they belong!

Deer are my bane. They mow down all the native plants leaving the land degraded which in turn creates an environment in which the exotic invasives can get an even stronger foothold. The deer population by me is 7x that which it was in the early 1900's. The herd numbers are so high the deer are unhealthy. We've lost all the large predators which formerly kept their numbers in check and we have replaced them with the automobile. The automobile is a poor substitute often resulting in the loss of human life. Support hunting is about all I can say until at such time as the deer numbers are back down to a number more consistent with that which our environment can sustain.

Thank you Equilibrium. I agree.
Venison is delicious any time of the year!

Hi RUK, venison may be delicious but I can't bring myself to eat it. Wild pigs are a big cause for concern too in many parts of the US yet I most certainly wouldn't eat pork. Veal, oh boy... not me. Guess I'm a Little Nemo and Mr. Chicken eater for the rest of my life. Pity about the meat from Bambi as a return to venison as a commodity might just be a major step in the right direction.

Personally, I think it would be great to start re-introducing bob cats and wolves and mountain lions back into lots of areas...but people tend to get upset when the predators start picking off their cats and dogs and toddlers.....I'm grateful for the coyotes we got here. Heck, if people kept their cats and dogs and toddlers in the house, where they belong, there wouldn't be a problem, would there? Cars are also an effective predator of deer in this area.

Deer don't bug me. I like them, they belong here. They also need to be regularly culled. I'm not opposed to hunting, though I couldn't pull the trigger, myself. I live in a '60's cookie cutter subdivision. ;-) that's just as unattractive as the new ones going up now...unattractive in it's own way.

I just went out and bought the restored, redigitised DVD version of Bambi. "Man is in the forest!" LOL! April

Capt. Micha,

Just FYI, Jack in the Pulpits move easily, and are very tolerant of the worst sort of handling, to whit:

I got all my Jacks (JITP) from a friend's father's land in SE Wisconsin. About 150 miles from here. When they were collected (and we used garden trowels to do so) the were put into plastic bags, the bags into cardboard boxes, and then they sat in my garage until I had time to plant them...for three weeks!. Some of them bloomed while in the garage. They were all planted out eventually, I didn't lose one of them and they are very happily giving me more and more JITP babies every year! Equilibrium has some of those babies. Of course, it's better to plant them right away.

In fact...all the woodland natives I collected on that trip adapted really, really well to their minimal root ball digging, trip and transplanting. I wouldn't recommend this method for touchier stuff like the Lady's Slippers, though. Leave them where they are. April

Do I really have some of your jack in the pulpits? I remember the hostas and the Dutchman's Breeches and the Soloman's Seal that I gave to my sister in law. Sheesh, I can't remember the jacks. I know I planted several trays of jacks from The Possibility Place, Dragonfly Gardens, and Enders but I've got some from you too??? I must be having a brain fart. I love genetic diversity. Nothing like strengthening that gene pool when reintroducing natives.

And yes, I am for culling of the deer too although I couldn't pull the trigger either. Here here to the reintroduction of Bob Cats, Wolves, and Mountain Lions. May it someday become a reality.

We actually have somebody hunting our place every first week in December and we get our share of the venison. We love it. Marinated in buttermilk, stewed etc. yumm!

I would not remove Cypripedium acaule from their habitat even if it does grow on my property. ( Thank you April) The growing conditions have to be just so, the right amount of acidity/ near conifers and under mixed deciduous trees, with the exact fungus for seed germination present in the soil. Trying to transplant them would be a crying shame, it would most likely spell certain death for them.
I always look forward to visit them at the end of May and enjoy their beauty in their natural surrounding. They are magical?

If one wants to grow orchids in a temperate zone, Bletillas planted outside against the housewall will do terrific and multiply nicely in zone 6b. I never noticed any seedlings, only the corms seem to spread.

I grow cyps... but I pain stakingly created acid bogs to be able to do so and none of mine were wild collected.

All I got to say is this...from the research I've done...cyp aucale is a lot less picky than people think it is....reason being, 1) it doesn't require michorrizhal fungi to sprout and grow in it's infancy. 2) it doesn't necessarily require acid soils, per some people's experience. I don't know...I can't grow it, that's for sure.

the reason I said what I said about "acid" soils is this....a person i know(who has cyp aucale) took soil samples at various places under his pines, and in other parts of his yard. Sent them in to the lab. The results came back...he had slightly acidic soil...didn't matter whether under his pine trees or not. It was all the same.

Yep, Equil, you have some of my JITP. Deer don't eat them, from what I understand. Deer meat..ecccccccch. Nasty, gamy, and I don't care what it's soaked in. It's like my mother trying to get me to eat liver soaked in whatever. It's still liver. Bleeech. april

Never under estimate what a hungry animal will eat but they do tend to stay away from jacks that are pretty toxic. Remember the hoof marks that went right to my front door and all of my chowed rhodos, azaleas, hyacinths that deer allegedly "never" eat? There's too many of them and some are starving to death.

The cyps in the fen I have are the C. acaule and C. reginae and they are planted with the Calopogan pulchellus alba. None of which require an acidic environment. The cyps in the acid bog are C. kentuckiensis and they are planted with the Spiranthes, Sarracenias, and Droseras.

Dodecatheon, how did you read my mind????????? "Personally, I think it would be great to start re-introducing bob cats and wolves and mountain lions back into lots of areas...but people tend to get upset when the predators start picking off their cats and dogs and toddlers.....I'm grateful for the coyotes we got here. (Especially this part:)Heck, if people kept their cats and dogs and toddlers in the house, where they belong, there wouldn't be a problem, would there?"!!!!! (I don't know how to get it in the blue box).

There's a lot of starving people, there's a lot of deer. Why don't they use venison to feed the hungry? I can't say I would eat it either; it's just not what I'm used to in considering food.

I'm all for welcoming deer to my home but they are quite destructive. We had some large evergreen trees planted in the back yard. It would have been okay for the deer to 'trim' them but they tore into the trunks AND pushed them over! and it looks like those trees might be goners unless they can manage to pull through.

I'm putting in a bog garden in the spring! I'm going to try my hand at some of the orchids, not wild collected of course!

Dodecatheon, have you truly searched a whole forest ( 100 acres or so) for Cyp acaule? And when you found them, exactly where and how did they grow?
I am sure you are talking tongue in cheek mentioning the Mountain lions etc. How much time do spend outside in the natural woods, perhaps walking alone, no other person in sight?

Equilibrium
I would love to see pictures of your Cyps and such in the wonderful habitat you have set up for them.
In the meanwhile here are some of my links:
http://www.kammlott.net/Cypacaule2001.html

Haven't updated with 2004 pics because it truly would be repetitious. But we do track them in all their growing places throughout the year.

http://www.kammlott.net/Spiranthes2000.html

Since the last Summer was very wet, the Spiranthes did exceptionally well and and came up even in road side ditches next to the farmed fields.

http://www.kammlott.net/Platantheralacera.html
This one is a real beauty, we now have learned to spot first year seedlings across the forest floor and we protect them with a mesh cage. That truly works.
http://www.kammlott.net/helleborine.html

I just have to update this one. A few years ago we created a huge circle of Deer fence enclosing several large trees and the Helleborines are finally thriving in their protected habitat.

And here comes one example of "crying shame". We never found another one.
http://www.kammlott.net/PadleavedPlat.html

Now, as somebody who literally combs on hand and knees the woods for "another Platanthera",
why would I be happy to come across Mountain lions etc. It is enough to see the droppings and scraping of Bears to respect large animals in the forest. And why would I remove anything which is so precious?

I just thought I let you know where I am coming from.

RUK,

My tongue is only half in my cheek. I spend ALOT of time walking alone in the woods around here. It's how I maintain what is left of my sanity. I also carry pepper spray. Generally, I'm more worried about human n'er-do-wells than animal ones. 2 mountain lions have been sighted in this area in the last few years. The IDNR can't figure out if they were pets that were dumped, or they are wild and just wandered in. I hope they're just left alone. Mostly what they want to catch and eat is deer. Or road-kill. Maybe a nice, fat toddler now and again, or a crunchy feral cat or dog.

I have a friend who lives in Reno, NV. Every year, someone biking or hiking or jogging up in the hills is picked off by a mountain lion. I can't really blame the mountain lions. Moving target. Predators love a moving target.

All the Cyp. Aucale I have ever seen were growing in hardwood forests..no pine trees in sight. Pine needles contribute only very minimally to soil acidity. However, peat will jack acidity right up there! Kentuckiensis DOES require a more acidic soil. I have recently found out that Cyp. Parviflorum Pubescens would be the type to grow best in the soil I have. If the aucale I planted last year returns...great! If it doesn't...once again, I have learned the error of my ways the hard way.

I personally, IMO, think that some cyps are hard to grow because they hate being moved. Their roots are very, very brittle, and, when broken, aren't replaced. Doesn't have much to do with michorhizzal fungi, or acidity. Cyp roots don't go deep..they go wide. Baby Cyps are grown in a sterile medium, Agar. April

Viva the Mountain Lions we have at Independence Grove. May they flourish. It was Independence Grove wasn't it or did IG have all the BobCat sightings? I'm serious about bringing back the predators. My cats are indoor only where they belong and they certainly will never end up as a dietary supplement. My dogs are never left outside other than to pee and poop and we're always right there with them making sure they don't take off. And I certainly never leave our boys unattended.

RUK, my cyps are in a recessed plastic kiddie swimming pool that I bought at K-Mart for $9.99 and edged with cultured stone to hide the hideous aqua edge. It is filled with sphagnum peat, rinsed sand, and white pine needles, as well as a touch of added vinegar that was very much diluted. I have other recessed "bogs" and "fens". Basically, they are recessed Rubbermaid animal troughs filled with the same mix. I have another new bog that is partially excavated that is considerably bigger that I'd like to finish off this year but that may not be feasible. The epdm liner to it is 20x 30 so it will be a biggie. I won't be able to get you photos of anything until this spring when they come back to "greet" me. I can tell you one thing, I certainly don't have as many Cyps as you must have as I generally buy plants in threesies or in 6-packs! I can also tell you that the Cyps I have are no where near as tall and lush as yours but then they were only planted two years ago and maybe that has something to do with it. Wish I had those spectacular Cyps like you but I don't. Your property is heaven! When can I come and visit?

I keep looking at that one photo of yours that you identified as an Epipactis helleborine. It sure does look like it but that's a rather invasive plant with an origin of Eurasia. I think I have a few of those here too. I have no idea where they came from and I couldn't get a positive ID last year so I left them be. I need to go back out to where those were and get another photo of them when they are in bloom again to see for sure. Very pretty but not a plant that is indigenous to North America. I was told "this orchid came from Europe some time in the 1800's, and has subsequently naturalized over the entire continent. You can find them from New England to California. Strangely enough, this species grows very easily in a variety of mixes and it spreads by seedlings; however, it is notoriously difficult to grow in vitro (requiring lengthy sterilization of up to 6hrs), long germination and many replates." I don't know much about the plant but your photograph reminded me that I need to positively ID mine. I might have a few photos of the plant that I can dig out. Maybe I better do that and see what you think.

How come you don't make the artificial in ground bog gardens, Equal? I found Bogman's post a couple of months ago, it sounds like a fun projct!

In all fairness, the predators were here first, not us. They keep nature in balance while humans are famous for distrupting the natural order of things.

If those joggers, bikers and runners were carrying pepper spray or other deterrants, maybe even a gun, I think the attacks wouldn't have been so many.

And I agree yet again, if people kept their pets indoors where they belong and supervised dogs and children outside, there would be a lot of other problems avoided, not just the succumbing to wild animals. My dog does not go outside with out an escort. I go crazy when my dad just opens the door and tells her to go out. ....A bit off topic but she's afraid of the dark and won't leave the porch unless some one is with her.

The indigenous people of America have long been co-existing with predators.

Er uh CaptMicha,
BogMan is my friend long before we signed up at DG. He be da one and he be da only soggy gardening Bog Man! My designs for acid bogs are all his and they are all in ground. Matter of fact, some of the plants in my acid bogs are from his acid bogs. My most prized plant is from BogMan although I have added many other plants on my own. The fens are not his designs and mixtures though. The wetlands were here already as were the woodlands and the plants in those I have been putting back over the last few years slowly but surely while continuing to clean up around here.

If the plants don't belong to any endangered species and there are plenty around where you live, it won't hurt Mother Nature if you take 1 or 2 to grow in your garden.
In my neighborhood I found some mallow/malva (malva sylvestris) growing plentyfully like a weed. Since it's a medicinal plant, and it was spreading all over, I allowed myself to take a young plant to grow in my garden...it's always better to grow your own medicine, esp. in the case of endengered medicinal species.

Equilibrium,
your set ups do sound very interesting. And your tidbits about the Helleborines - I didn't know that they came from Europe, although years ago a Swedish visitor remarked that a reddish variety is somewhat common near her hometown. ( that may have been Upsala.)
And to Dodecathion, maybe one has to rewrite the book on growing conditions for Cyp acaules?

To come back to the large cats - honestly, I still don't wish to see them close up eye to eye, sorry. I don't know if they get out of my way as most wild animals do?
One time I was picking Blueberries a little further into the woods, quietly by myself. As I got busy filling a little can with these goodies, I became aware of the tremendous activity around me. Things snortled ( Deer?) I heard Fox barking ( we have a few), Turkeys, Woodpecker ( large Lumberjack) hammering away and then, my blood froze.... one wouldn't believe the racket behind me in the underbrush. I thought for sure a Bear would tower over me if I would just turn around. Well, after a while I did carefully look, it was the tiniest cutest little mouse, rustling about. What a relief!
Ok? no Mountain lions for me, just hunters to keep the Deer population down.

RUK and Equil...I think there are native hellebores.

The puma's were sighted by many, many people whilst driving along 294 in the Libertyville area. I have no desire to meet one face to face. I saw a black bear once...when picking blue berries in upstate New York. I don't know which one of us was more scared, we both lit out in opposite directions like our tails were on fire. Like I said, I carry pepper spray I got from a cop friend, but really, I'm more worried about the people who frequent the wild areas than the animals.

5 years ago or so...In Carpentersville, a guy wielding an axe jumped a couple out for a walk in a nature preserve. He cut them up real bad, but they survived. He was never caught. April