Cucurbits in PlantFiles - input needed

We've reached the point where the squash need their own space. (You know how they tend to sprawl!) Seriously, when we do this, we also stop and ask ourselves if we also need specific checkboxes for the genus. Here's what's been proposed thus far:

Type
Summer crookneck
Summer scallop
Summer straightneck
Summer zucchini
Winter acorn
Winter buttercup
Winter butternut
Winter cushaw
Winter kabocha
Winter pumpkin


Days to Maturity
40 to 55 days
55 to 70 days
70 to 90 days
90 to 120 days

Skin Color
white
cream
yellow
grey
light green
medium green
orange
red
striped
multicolored

Size
less than 1 pound
2 to 4 pound
3 to 6 pound
7 to 12 pound
13 to 20 pound
21 to 35 pound
35 to 100 pound
over 100 pound

Habit
Bush
Semi-bush
Vining
Climbing (greenhouse)

Seed Type
Open pollinated
Heirloom
Hybrid

Disease Resistance
Zucchini Yellow Mosaic Virus (ZYMV)
Cucumber mosaic virus (VMV)
Watermelon Mosaic Virus (WMR)
Powdery Mildew (PM)

I've incorporated FD's suggestions from the next post. Are there any other issues - such as pollination/cross-polllination requirements? Or anything else?

I'd like to close this discussion within the next few days so we can proceed with adding these checkboxes to PlantFiles entries for the affected genera.

This message was edited Feb 4, 2005 9:31 AM

Terry;
Growth Habit
Bush
Semi - Bush
Vining
Climbing (Greenhouse)
Disease Resistance
Zucchini Yellow Mosaic Virus (ZYMV)
Cucumber mosaic virus (VMV)
Watermelon Mosaic Virus (WMR)
Powdery Mildew (PM)

This message was edited Feb 3, 2005 12:55 PM

Under Seed Type add PVP.

What is PVP??

I think the list of entries is very good.

I think PVP refers to patent-protected varieties of plants: http://cropandsoil.oregonstate.edu/cereals/PVP/pvp.htm

Up to now, we've handled the patent issues for plants (mostly ornamentals which are propagated asexually) parenthetically within the second cultivar field - here's an example: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/79566/index.html

To be honest, I haven't delved much into the PVP rules - how widespread is the occurrence of PVP certified seed varieties within the ag seed business these days? (I think if "ignorance is bliss", this is one of those issues where it's nice to be a happy fool ;o) And can a person save PVP seed (or is this the Monsanto issue all over again? Or does it vary from state to state?)

Are those "types" all separate species? lately, I've been trying to figure out which squash are less likely to be hit hard by borers, and the information I'm getting is more oriented toward species names than types, which makes it confusing. Maybe each of these "types" could have their species name in parentheses? I know there's a space for species name in plantfiles, but I'm a lot more likely to know if a squash is an acorn or a zucchini when entering information for a cultivar, so it would really help me to have those species names..... The seed companies just don't seem to use them.

I do think it's important to know about pollination requirements, especially if some squash, like greenhouse cucumbers, will set fruit without a pollinator. It would also help newbies like me to know which squash will cross-pollinate with which other squash, although I'm not sure what clear way this information could be conveyed.

Looking forward to the expanded squash section!

Plant variety protection (PVP) is becoming quite widespread among the newer cultivars, especially in the squash, Cucumber, melon and watermelon groups although there are some in tomatoes and peppers.. It is a way for a company developing a cultivar to control its distribution. Before you could buy a supply of open pollinated seeds and start your own seed farm without regard to the original developer. That worked reasonably well when most development was government subsidized at land grant Universities. The susidies have stopped and most devopment is done by international seed producers. Even the Universiteies work with company subsidies.Under PVP you have open pollinated cultivars, but it as illegal to produce seeds for sale as it is to copy someone's book for resale.You can save your own seeds, you just can't sell them and get caught at it. See
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00301.html
It is actually an international agreement,
And Critter; Acorn and Zucchini are the same species so that information is minimally useful.Pepo also includes all the crooknecks, straightnecks, and scallops as well as most of the pumpkins.

This message was edited Feb 4, 2005 3:14 PM

OK, I guess I can always search for a species name or a variety name and figure it out that way.

With regard to the vining / semi bush / bush distinction, it might be helpful to have some lengths/sizes listed in parentheses. I saw a "bush" variety listed as 4-6 feet across the other day, which I think I'd consider more of a semi-bush size, although maybe growth habits don't necessarily reflect size. It would be nice if those of us with small or medium sized gardens had a way to identify varieties with 16 foot vines that we just wouldn't have room for....

I'm sorry to be offering such less-than-expert suggestions. I do think that's a very thorough & helpful list of checkboxes you've proposed!

Critter, Typically the vining cultivars which are almost but not always winter squash are checked as vines and climbers. Most of them will depending on soil condition exceed 10 feet in lenght. Bush/semi-bush/semi-vining ( the three terms are used interchangably by suppliers) winter squash typically run 4 ft on average.and that should be reflected in the spacing requirement. As far species goes, butternut and cheese pumpkins are moschata; Butter Cups, kabocha, and a few pumpkins are maxima; Cushaws are mixta, and everything else is pepo. There are a few listed in Plantfiles as argyrosperma but that is not in common usuage.

Do we want to include shape, or is that inferred from the type?

One site listed the following shapes....
Round
Elongated
Scalloped
Pear
???

And what about spaghetti squash? Are there enough varieties to qualify as a separate type?

Maybe, out of the 700 + cultivars in the database, there are three or four spaghetti squash. However there may be folk specifically looking for this type cultivar.

Thanks again, Farmerdill! I'm learning so much from you & others here at DG! Thank you for your patience.

You mentioned that vine length "should be reflected in the spacing requirement." Silly me, I was so busy looking at the specific checkboxes being proposed that I didn't realize the standard information like spacing would remain. That completely addresses my concern about how to define bush/semi-bush/semi-vining!

Good idea to add spaghetti squash to the list. I wouldn't know where to look for it, else, and with the lo-carb crazy stuff, I can guarantee folks will be looking specifically for this type...

Final call for input - these changes will go in later today unless someone yells "STOP!"

Okay, I think (hope!!!!) I got it right. Cucurbita pepo, C. maxima, C. moschata and C. mixta have all been designated as "Squash" and will have the fields (above) on all their entries. Are there any other species that should be included?

That is about as close as you can come Terry. There are edible gourds sold under "squash" (example -Tinda, Citrullus vulgaris and squash sold as "gourds" ( example - Bushel Gourd, C. pepo) but we should probably leave them alone.

Thanks Farmerdill. BTW, the cultivar finder is now working, too: http://davesgarden.com/pf/finder/index.php?sname=Squash&submit=submit

I notice a few of the entries are being slow in adopting the new checkboxes. If you come across any like that, hit "switch to live view" at the bottom, which should jolt it into the new format ;o)

Good job. Terry; I browsed through and it looks good.