Winter Weed Treatments for Woodies

Hey all
Need your experiences doing cut stump treatments in the dead of winter.
Here's the situation...Recent perscribed burning included a large arroyo infested with tamarisk.
Boss man wants to use new equipment to cut and start treatments in January (only time we can get the needed people together to do the job).
Has anyone done this? Not concerned about the species per se-know not many here are working with tamarisk so what about other woody species? What did you use chemical wise? How did it turn out?
Thanks!!

Er uh, There are people removing buckthorn through the dead of winter around here. Some suckers back and some doesn't. I have no idea what arsenal of chemicals are being used by others to treat the stumps. Appears the multistem formations of R. cathartica are most likely to come back with a vengeance as opposed to the singles of R. frangula. I have my reservations though as I would like to see those removing it go back and get what they were unsuccessful in eradicating the first time around. I've been taking the Rhamnus out here, there, and everywhere and have been painting the stumps with full strength Garlon 3 only because I ran out of Garlon 4 and mineral oil. The Garlon 3 should work just as well given the species I am dealing with which is Rhamnus. I am going to stop come the first of December as nobody in my immediate area is going for them Jan-March. Even now, the buckthorn I am currently going after is not being cut down below about 14" or so. I need that safety net to come in and re-treat if it suckers back up. A considerable amount of energy was stored over the last few months and I sure as heck don't need that coming back at me full force. I know all too well what happens if one takes down one of these shrubs/trees and doesn't treat the stump yet on the other hand, I know all too well how ineffective chemicals can be when not applied in the appropriate temperature ranges. I am thinking it is probably not such a good idea to go for the Tamarisk in the dead of winter unless... the Powers That Be consider using a product such as Bonide's Stump-Out. That should sufficiently destroy the lignin binding and ready it for burning down to the roots. Use of these types of products might not be too cost effective on a large scale though but would not using them potentially be even less cost effective from an allocation of manpower position. Better yet, what about moving heavy equipment in and yanking those stumps out of their comfy home if they say they want to go for this is the dead of winter? Why do I get the impression this is going to be taking three steps backwards to take two steps forward and that the Tamarisk is going to come back and wink and wave at you people next spring chanting "nanner nanner nanner"? .

I have no experience what so ever with Tamarisk but it's here too and it will be only a matter of time before I run into it. I know it's from North Africa and I know it is an ecological nightmare in and around river systems which is where it ultimately ends up. I can appreciate your employer's desire to best use resources when available but something is making me question the timing of this. I found one website on this however the information contained therein is not exactly in depth to meet your needs-
http://www.tamariskcoalition.org/mission.html
Note the following from their site-
"The Mission of the Tamarisk Coalition
The Tamarisk Coalition is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization providing technical assistance and coordinating efforts of numerous state and federal agencies, private organizations and landowners to begin the task of restoring riparian lands. USDA and Department of Interior scientists and others have accomplished extensive research on tamarisk control measures..."

I'm thinking you might want to open up dialogue with their people real fast and take a few visits to any areas that the Coalition has knowledge of Tamarisk having been removed from in the dead of winter. Lemme know what you find out.

Oh, one last thing, not a good idea to go after any of these monsters in spring with chemicals when the sap is running as it pushes the chemical right up and out. Been there done that! Probably best to wait until they have leafed out if addressing the stump by painting it.

Thanks!! I know Tim and Anna (the founders) of the Tamarisk Coalition personally. I am a member thru work. As a matter of fact I saw her Wednesday at our State Weed Meeting-she is one of the heads of the Denver Botanic Garden and also Professor with specalty in Tamarisk (of course)!! They are not doing any winter work so there were no concrete suggestions except for try it and let us kow what happens, lol!
I have heard of folks doing this in Jan in MN, MI and WI and supposedly have good success but yes retreatment is vital the following summer after full leaf out at you say and again the next year if necessary.
At this point I am using Arsenal-I have a limited pallet and neither Garlon nor the Syump out is approved for use by DoD althought the premixed form of Garlon is approved (Pathfinder)...I've had 90-100% kill with the Arsenal so far but for mid to late summer treatment, not winter.
Thanks for all the suggestions, I might go with the Pathfinder.
We have a small tracked bobcat with two different heads on them. One is a cutter with grappling arms. Our cuts have to be really low to reduce hazard to vehicles so the cuts have to be at or very near ground level. The other is a big drum that pulverizes the stuff to death but the cuts are pretty rough so treatment is not very clean. We'll be using that to grind brush piles when we are done.
It's rare even in Jan that the daytime temps are below 40's and I've worked in a light jacket at that time with temps in the 50's.
But of course nighttime temps can be quite chilly.

Not sure what to do here. If it's too cold we will just cut and I will treat the regrowth mid summer. Definately two steps backwards!! the fire was really hot so maybe it did some good! At least any resprouts will be small enough to be treated with my spray truck. Impossible now as the trees are way taller than what the truck can reach.

See, this is going to be a wait and see. You are the experimental guinnea pig. Ugh, better you than me. Cutting the stumps level with the ground is the bug up my rearend but I understand the concept behind wanting to do so. Something not sitting well with me about that level with the ground deal. I'm thinking you might want to invest in fluorescent surveying flags. They can be pruchased by the thousands and are quite affordable. You could write the number of treated stumps on the flag and if worse came to worse, at least you would have a general idea of what was addressed in the area when you come back to survey it.

So far, Garlon 3 is giving me 100%. I've probably nailed at least 500 with it. The Garlon 4 using mineral oil as the surfactant was at 90%. I have to admit I mixed it according to recommendations and I should have reduced the ratio of surfacatant. The Garlon 3 was full strength though and applied in late summer to early fall. I'd seriously consider trying the Pathfinder with one twist... allow it to dribble down what little of the sides are left to the stumps and seriously consider bringing a cordless drill with you to drill 1/4" holes in the stump down about 5" below grade. If that's the product they're going to approve for you to use, then go for it. To the best of my knowledge there should exist few restrictions on how it is applied. Drill as close to the cambium layer as is possible. Better yet, apply it liberally with a brush after you pulverize it with that drum to the bobcat.

I have not used Arsenol as of yet but that was what I was going to consider in place of Rodeo. Rodeo is the product I attempted to inject into some purple loosestrife. Didn't put a dent in them. Must not have used enough. I was way to conservative with my quantities. I was merely experimenting but not exactly a positive result considering they're still standing. I used insulin suringes. No way I could treat an entire acre of the stuff that way but for isolated plants and the few that have gone terrestrial, why not? I am thinking the Rodeo should have worked yet it didn't. Rats. I will have to find out what else I can play with before the backhoes come. Backhoes get them!

Now I really want to know how it goes with your Tamarisk. Will you try both Pathfinder and Arsenol this winter? I'm hoping you do to better determine which will ultimately yield the highest percentages of kills. Then you can share with me!

Best wishes and bookmark this thread so you can report back.

This message was edited Aug 29, 2006 11:38 PM

Hahahaa...we can't afford to damage any of that expensive military equ when they are training. Opening up the drainages and clearing tamarisk also means more access up down and across for training!!
I do not paint the arseanal but apply it in the manner you suggest -spray the top cut and also dribbling down the sides into the root crown.

Where did you get the info on the injection method? Wondering as I thought that PL was chambered inside? I can ask my County Weed Manager friend what they used in their PL. Thinking they used Rodeo as well but as a foliar. Oh and there is a new Arsenal product on the market with an aquatic label. But it is very expensive.

I can't use the drill method-technically it's outside the label instructions and I have to follow the letter of the label for DoD lands and my lisence!!!

I'll let you know what happens.

I know it is a chambered plant but I was sort of hoping that if I injected the chemical right in that it would go straight down into the roots thus not affecting any of the sedges within the vicinity. This unorthodox method was my own brain child. I got frustrated every time I went out to spray as the wind wasn't cooperating. I was very concerned with drift so I figured what the heck. I think my problem was the chemical I used given this is a chambered plant. Approved method of application for PL was foliar and it was Rodeo though. One problem, Rodeo was pulled which is why I figured I'd try injecting it as I had left over product and hadn't really taken the time to find out why it had been pulled. I thought Merit was pulled too but it must still be available as I just saw it listed for sale.

Is the new chemical AquaMaster by Monsanto?

Yes, that is it, AquaMaster! I have not used it yet tho
You mean it was pulled from sales in your state? There has been no national pull of it that I know of.
Here is interesting observation. My kids decided that they wanted to experiment with turning the white amaryliss blooms a different color sot hey loaded insulin syringes with straight food dye and shot it into the bloom stalk. They used alot of dye and it took a very long time for the dye to move to the bloom and turn it blue. Was kinda odd cuz we all thought that the bloom should color really fast but it didn't. And from the amount injected be a darleer blue and that didn't happen either, lol!! Wondering if the dilution that had to take place to move the dye sucessfully slowed the process and the same is happened to you especially in a chambered vascular system. Is the PL in the water or near it? You might be able to cut it, wait for regrowth and treat the foliage a little more closely without the chance as much drift. What are you using for a sprayer?

I have an RL Pro-Flo stainless steel model from Home Depot. It is still in the box. I also have a Solo 4gal back pack model direct from the manufacturer. That one has a diaphragm pump. My equipment isn't the issue. It's the user. First and foremost, I am not comfortable with chemicals and never have been. I have somewhat lifted my self imposed ban based on comments from friends of mine who are in labs but I still prefer more of a controlled hit such as painting or injecting. I used that Solo on some Reed Canary Grass that I had been trying to beat back non chemically for over 2 years and evidently there was drift and it hit a Swink & Wilhelm #10 plant species that was here. I was careful, I didn't even notice there was an ever so gentle breeze. My husband brought out a bright light. The type you use to shine for deer. He showed me how with virtually no breeze, I was still getting drift. I haven't used it since. I purchased the RL Pro-Flo as it is only a 2 gallon tank. Not as awkward. Funny, I'm not afraid of my chainsaw and I'm not afraid of my acetylene torch but these sprayers make me a nervous wreck. The loss of one plant caused my aversion. I have sprayed horticultural oils and soaps with sprayers I borrowed from friends and had no nervous jitters but then consider the product I was using.

As a side note, we hired a "veteran" crew to come on over here and take out some buckthorn last year. I used a can of fluorescent paint and spray tagged trees I wanted taken down. They nailed an American Cherry that wasn't marked. My best guess is the tree was 75 years old. Problem is that the tree seemed to have a natural immunity to some of the ickies flying around here and we had all been monitoring that tree. I very politely showed them the difference in the bark and alos pointed out to them that the tree hadn't been marked then quietly went inside to take some Motrin. I did not hire them back in favor of taking over 100% myself here lest there be no more accidents. They also tromped all over some cohosh that I specifically pointed out to them. Can we say mircromanaging? The way I figure it is about 2 more years and only a few thousand more buckthorn out there in need of my "attention".

Yes, Rodeo is off the shelves here in Illinois.

Back to the injection, I was shooting near the base. It had been my hope that the chambered vascular system of the plant was going to be an asset not a liability. I wanted it to go down down down to the roots. I have no idea where it all went. Like I said, my little brain child or shall I say brainless child. Seriously, it had been my hope that the lack of locomotion combined with me injecting the Rodeo into the outer epidermis was going to increase the rate of transference down. The basic anatomy of the plant should have told me it wouldn't work but I guess I had to try. Dumb dumb dumb. So much for conductivity as the plants are out there gloating at me right now. We'll see if they are still gloating when the backhoes come to round em up.

Well, I've been trying to keep up with this thread and want to add.
Next time you have a crew that has to be told not to walk on some plant. Tell them, then AFTER they assure you they wont walk on plants, have them sign a little statement that they have been told not to walk'destroy plant/s XXX and will be liable if they destroy it. It certainly helps jog a persons memory if that "short cut" has a $ attached to it. Same goes for cutting unmarked trees. Hindsight is always 20-20.
They probably cut your American Cherry because it was too much touble to work around it. Heck it wasn't their tree.

You hit it right on the head. It was too much trouble to work around. I turned my back to focus on another area and they brought it down. I have children of my own to baby sit. I don't want to have to baby sit adults. The Cohosh were expensive plants but not worth my time going after the company as the foreman had already told me that he hadn't noticed the Cohosh there and... "How did he know that one of my kids hadn't trashed it instead of one of his men?" No sense getting hung up on $10 a piece plants with that type of a retort.

" I used that Solo on some Reed Canary Grass that I had been trying to beat back non chemically for over 2 years and evidently there was drift and it hit a Swink & Wilhelm #10 plant species that was here. I was careful, I didn't even notice there was an ever so gentle breeze. My husband brought out a bright light. The type you use to shine for deer. He showed me how with virtually no breeze, I was still getting drift. I haven't used it since."

Ok, you can buy different nozzels from just about any company that sells backpack sprayers, Solo, Forestry Supplies, etc...I find the standard nozzel that comes with the Solo's are not suitable at all-they are too fine a spray with too wide a pattern. You need to get a better and/or an adjustable nozzel. Start using marker dye if you aren't already so you can see what you are doing. I use 2-3 times the recommended amount with no problems.
As for the drift. The best time to spray is 2-3mph. Barely noticable breeze to ever so gentle breeze. You should never spray on a completely calm day-it will give you alot of problems with secondary drift. That is, the small chemical droplets rise instead of being forced downward and are eventually carried off (as opposed to overspray or being blown horizontally by the wind). And, it can drift from short to a pretty far distance before dropping on non target plants. Add rapidly warming temps (80-90) with no wind situations and the chemical volitizes and that increases the above problem (an inversion situation which can go even further before it cools and drops on non-targets). Increase the surfactant to the max amount (or start using one if you don't), use a marker dye-I really like the blue, spray at 2-3 mph and use the largest possible droplet size. An adjustable nozzel and different spray pattern will help with this tremendously.

Oh, now I even feel more comfortable using a sprayer- not! I feel a headache coming on! I am going to go and save this thread to my harddrive. I think I need to re visit using a sprayer. I have an account at Forestry Supplies. Let me know which nozzel specifically to purchase.

I'll look and see what I can find for you over the weekend.................