Oxeye Daisy, A question of ethics

Luecanthemum Vulgare Lam. .....Oxeye Daisy
I have those that say it is invasive or noxious.
I have been in love with this flower since I first saw it.
I want seeds.
I am scorned for wanting seeds.
I go to this site http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=noxious.cgi
I find oxeye daisy.
It is not a native.
It is not listed as invasive or noxious in Florida
Should I obtain seeds and plant it?

I have done my researchand decided to plant Lazy Daisies. They are NATIVE to FLORIDA. Thanks for your help

This message was edited Nov 21, 2004 11:34 AM

Sidney....according to this source it is invasive in NW Florida http://www.naba.org/ftp/nwfl.pdf See page 3.

Well. look for the very east end of I-10. I live 6 miles north of the east end of I-10. I sure lke this site though. Where's one for NE Fla?

Dang woman....NW was as close as I could find.

Next

ok ok...according to this http://131.247.163.11/website/plantatlas/maps.asp?plantID=1831 it has only been reported as growing in 3 counties in NW florida, where is has been identified as invasive per the previous link. As I understand it, identification as invasive is done after the fact, so there would not be any data on it being invasive elsewhere in florida because it isn't elsewhere in florida. But logically, if it is identified as invasive in the 3 counties it is in, then it would be potentially invasive elsewhere in the state or region.

There is no threat of me ruining MS with it. I've killed it 2x and am now on my way to killing the 3rd one.

OK, I've found a list for my county, Duval. What kind of list is this? Vascular needs to be added to Botonary. What does that actually mean?

Ahhh, here you are! Hi Sidney!

Are you a purist? Are you attempting to create a native plant community in and around your home? If you are don't plant it.

In my region, I think it is a lot like Dame's Rocket in that it seems to be everywhere. I don't particularly care for overplanting of anything. If you look at this site, you will find the plant has naturalized virtually everywhere-
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=noxious.cgi

Here's a few of what I believe to be the cons on the plant,

It is potentially invasive and its existence has been documented to interfere with the development of native plant communities. There are many examples of oxeye daisy infestations across the nation.

It is often referred to as a botanical barbarian because of its ability to "bully" natives. The seed from oxeye daisy can spread all too easily by wind, your shoes, vehicles, and critters. If it doesn't exactly find your property to be all that hospitable, can you insure it won't find your neighbor's property to be equally as unhospitable?

The plant reproduces both vegetatively and by seed and is adapted to insure outbreeding. Basically, the flowers produce pollen during a male stage that precedes the female stage.

In areas where there is a lot of it, bare soil is real common and therefore the potential for erosion becomes a concern.

If you feel for the plight of the farmer, the oxeye daisy can be a big problem in pastures. It competes with cereals and reduces oat yields.

It is a host to aster yellow and several nematode species.

pros-

Has a shallow root system so it pulls up easily requiring no chemicals.

Girls in love can play "he loves me... he loves me not" with them.

Nice native alternative out there which many find more attractive- Erigeron annuus
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_profile.cgi?symbol=ERAN



Nice site to check out-
http://www.tcweed.org/oxeye.htm

From that site I additionally found this-
"Wildlife and livestock do not like to graze or walk through an area infested with Ox-eye daisy since the plants irritate their legs and faces. Very few animals will eat ox-eye daisy and ox-eye daisy infestations push out plants that wildlife prefer to eat, thus directly reducing wildlife habitat."

Equi...there you are....was just looking for you at http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/469038/ :-)

Equi, Wow, you have done as usual, alot of research. Well no, I'm not a purist, but I don't want to be wreckless either. I am familiar with your alternative flebane, and actually feel it's more invasive than oxeye. fleabane's bloom is 1/2"-3/4" across and oxeye is 2"+. Still pondering

How about a nice Gerbera....large flower, colorful, perrenial.

Or a shasta? and about them cows. They just ain't got hungry enough yet.

Hmmm, Shastas have their own issues!

Oh decisions decisions!

Remember, a native plant can be invasive too!

To plant oxeye
To not plant oxeye

To plant oxeye
To not plant oxeye

To plant oxeye
To not plant oxeye

Thanks for the compliment but I'm sort of familiar with the exeye. I did have to go do a search to be able to find a few links for you though and on a dial up that's a real son of a gun. We've been having erosion issues in this area because of the oxeyes that are... no pun intended... making a few of the natives restless. They're going to resort to some very expensive fancy schmancy fibrous underlayment material to attempt to address the erosion issues. I'm thinking it ain't gonna work!

Another tidbit, farmers in Scotland who had the most of this plant were fined. I understand it isn't nearly as common in Scotland as it used to be ;)

How about planting some of these-
"The Daisy Chain" by Anne Geddes?
http://www.geocities.com/heather77/gallery/geddes/daisy2.html

Don't need any of those, nice to look at, but much too labor intensive at 58.
I see Margurites listed with them, and they are very hard to raise for long here.
I think it might be a tad too warm here anyhow or they would be here already like Weeze says.
I am going to try to be responsible about this, but want to have an everblooming garden at the end of my driveway.

Nope, not a tad too warm for them down in your neck of the woods. These plants are quite adaptive to a multitude of conditions.

Aauuggghhhh!

Ok, want to plant non-natives (or natives for that matter) that may be invasive? How about simply following some rules by being responsible. I'll apologize now for offending some of my fellow native plant growers.

1 If it spreads by stolons, etc. plant within a barrier so they won't spread beyond their bounds. I grow bamboo this way.

2 If it spreads by seeds, deadhead before the seeds have a chance to mature, in some cases (garlic mustard) the developing seed heads must be destroyed or they will continue to develop (not that anyone grows G.M. just an example). This is how I treat my nooding onions, they're native but invasive.

3 Do research on the plants before you jump into gardening with them. this way you can be prepared for the challenges they may pose.

My point is: know what you're growing and know the possible risks. I could not imagine what the fields around here would look like in summer without oxeye daisy, queen anne's lace, deptford pinks, chickory, dandelions and all the colorful non natives that have naturalized.

At one time I was an ultra purist, against all non native species. Guess what they are already here, and it's our own fault so we need to learn to deal with them in our own ways. The planet is becoming more of a global community thanks to human beings...change is inevitable and natural.

not to offend bogman and the point is well taken but, the fields around here would have (without those nasty species),...let's see...puccoon, native asters, mariposa lily, penstemons, verbena, verbesina, solidago, rudbeckia, gaillardia, ratibida, orchids, artemesia, etc....

If change is inevitable because we actively, purposely and selfishly spread invasive exotic species (global community or not) then I don't call that process "natural", nor do I want it!

This message was edited Nov 20, 2004 2:34 PM

Nobody grows garlic mustard? Perhaps not, but the seeds are being collected and traded even though it is the 3rd most invasive plant in the US and it is illegal to possess it, let alone import and export it in several states.

Garlic Mustard was one of my banes. I hate that garbage plant that even the deer and rabbits won't eat and I think I finally have it nipped in the bud other than addressing the seed bank that will be here to haunt me for the next 7 years or so. But... my neighbor has a nice big patch of it and thinks it is gorgeous. What are you gonna do!

Ahh, if only more people were as conscientious and as well versed as Bogman and if only all who were growing bamboo had the plant contained to a non penetrable barrier such as what he has I wouldn't be besieged right now with several species that other people planted with the best of intentions to keep up with them. Bogman gets an A+ in this area as he beyond a shadow of a doubt has that bamboo contained. How many are as responsible and better yet... how many saw the need to handle certain plants with kid gloves? I suspect his gardening morals and ethics are representative of a percentage of a percentage. I want him and 50 more like him for neighbors!

The other issue is deadheading... exactly how many gardeners who are cultivating exotic invasives even know what they've got let alone to religiously deadhead it? And there are always those who know they've got an exotic on their hands with the best intentions of "keeping an eye" on it. But people become incapacitated and die, they sell their homes and move on, their priorities change, and well... the lure of the football game and a nice cold beer takes precedence in favor of putting that deadheading off until the following week or the week after. Well, the plants in need of deadheading aren't going to hold of going to seed while life takes its twists and turns. We humans do have a tendency of getting side tracked don't we.

I am a living example of what happens when people are supposed to "Do research on the plants before you jump into gardening with them. this way you can be prepared for the challenges they may pose." Grade me an F in this area as too many nurseries and seed companies were selling inappropriate plants and I hadn't the slightest clue. Such pretty tags and such attractive seed packs-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/468660/

Yes, the plants are already here but do we have to add any more? Particularly those that are deemed to be threats to public health? Does any one realize what the eradication of just the top five plants on the list that PvillePlanter mentioned could do for us all? We're not going to get em all. Isn't going to happen. But...

Margaret Meade is quoted as saying, "Never underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

This, and this alone, is why it is increasingly more important for all of us to focus on what we can do to better our own landscapes based on our personal perception of what needs to be done. Worrying about what everyone else is doing will only "bog" you down and give you gray hair. No pun intended.

Bogman,

Yes, change is inevitable. Within the ecosystem, and without help from homo sapiens. But as far as the natural world goes, importation by homo sapiens of non-native life forms is bad 99.9% of the time. Should one willingly export the rabies virus to GB? It's natural, after all. How about West Nile Virus to the US? Ooops...too late. Heartworm? Bird Flu...Coming soon! Kudzu was a big success, Let's keep on going down THAT road...it worked so well. None of these things I mentioned are good things, and I could go on and on. Nature abhors a vacuum, it's true. But the native flora and fauna of any given county, region, state, country are never vacuums.

I grow many non-native plants in my front yard..I have 1 agressive variety. I don't want my neighbor to have to deal with my landscaping choices.

You are correct, it is possible to grow non-native invasive species without impacting natural areas. How many people will take that responsibility, though? You do, obviously...but what percentage of others? If I move from here, and don't get rid of all the dame's rocket..will the next owners do so? Or, will they just let it go 'cuz it smells nice and it's pretty? I have, for instance, a big dame's rocket in my front yard. My DH loves it, and therefore, I keep it there. The second it is done blooming, I cut it down to the ground. The blooms smell heavenly! No seed ever gets set. it's not rhizomatous. Still, I am thinking of making it sleep the big sleep. The point is...it's an aggressive, invasive non-native. I can absolutely 100% guarantee that nothing growing on my property, native or not, is going to cross over to my neighbors. I cut down the asters and goldenrods(native, agressive, rhizomatous species) before they set seed.

My neighbor has a lovingly tended buckthorn in his front yard. Does he make sure it doesn't bear fruit? Nope! It bears fruit, the birds eat the fruit, hence, I have thousands of buckthorn seedlings every year to deal with. Non-native species are fine, ...if a person can guarantee me that I will never have to spend hours and hours and hours and hours weeding the seedlings from MY property. Which I do.

Everything is connected, it's not just about ME, me, me and my yard.

Somewhere in northern Minnesota there's an idiot trying to breed a winter hardy water hyacinth. Then, look out! Water Kudzu! With much respect, April

Dodecatheon

I don't agree with you, after reading a couple of your posts. You state: "I can absolutely 100% guarantee that nothing growing on my property, native or not, is going to cross over to my neighbors."

There is NOTHING that is 100% guaranteed, nothing.

Tropicals such as water hyacinth are not hardy here in OH nor are they hardy in IL. Planting them here is a moodt point because they WILL NOT survive here, so again I don't understand your beef.

Don't grow non-natives because they might take over the world...Don't grow endangered species because they might become extinct, You'd probably sick the plant police on me for some of the NATIVE rarities I grow. I don't understand the superiority complex over here at DG, I'm used to tolerance among the gardeners I know. Perhaps I'll just go back to GW.

IF anyone even cares, here is some info on Water Hyacinth and why I believe it is not a moot point to grow this in zones it cannot survive the winter...You can however believe and do what you wish. I just personally wish you wouldn't ;-)

from the link below
"The seeds are dispersed by birds and can remain viable for 15-20 years. But the main method of reproduction is vegetatively, through stolons. A single plant under ideal conditions can produce 3,000 others in 50 days, and cover an area of 600 sq metres in a year."
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/cerc/danoff-burg/invasion_bio/inv_spp_summ/water%252520hyacinth.html

And another:
"Water hyacinth has not been found in the wild in Washington, but it is sold as an ornamental plant in plant nurseries. Although it is thought that water hyacinth cannot survive Washington's winters, its presence as an ornamental makes it possible for escape and growth in the wild. Water hyacinth does survive freezing conditions in other states where it is established and it may be possible for this plant to survive western Washington's relatively warm winters."
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/plants/weeds/hyacinth.html

Hi Bogman,

You wrote:

LOL. Just incredible....It's not enough that the owner of this site publicly insults and brands people, making totally false and unfounded accusations against them, now he has to go looking for more threads to continue fostering this obsession? There may be a superiority complex here and you may have "problem members" but you keep looking for them in all the wrong places IMO. *Just shaking my head*

Wish there had been this kind of 'protection' last month over at http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/463301/ when I was attacked over a period of a couple of days for expressing what I do and why I do it.

I thought this was a nice place to be, too, until that thread happened....

Bogman,

I thought I made it explicitly and most crystal clear that I report the NURSERIES in my area that sell non-native invasives. Not individuals. But, please know....somewhere in Northern Minnesota, someone is trying, and partially suceeding, in breeding a winter hardy species of water hyacinth. It's only about 5 years down the road, if you must know. Actually, it's winter hardy now. It's seeds can survive for decades. In our climate. Water Kudzu, anyone?

AND. Because my garden is small...I CAN 100% guarantee that my plants are not going to end up in my neighbor's yard. Period. I'm really, really diligent. If I have even the slightest shadow of a doubt about a plant..I deadhead it before it ever sets seed. I contain it's rhizomes in a buried 5 gallon bucket.

I do tons of reading and research on agressive non-natives. I volunteer at local state parks. I use every single resource at hand that I need to use before I plant ANYTHING in my yard. Dave's Garden is one of those resources, and it is an awesome resource! I put TONS of personal time into my landscaping choices, and if I can't cut it...I don't plant it.

While I will fight to the death for your right to do what you want..it doesn't mean I HAVE to agree with it.

If Dave wants to ban me for speaking the truth, well, this is his website. He can do whatever he chooses to do. His ball, his bat, his glove. If you can't have any type of intelligent discourse, or argument, for worry of ruffling someone's feathers....then of what use is free speech? I realise that Dave doesn't have to tolerate any kind of speech, and that is his right. I DO support people who don't agree with me, too. I'm happy to argue their points, if I'm in disagreement with them.

But I'm danged if I'm going to let other people put words in my mouth. Is a "problem member" anyone who doesn't agree with the status quo? I will repeat...again and again and again...plant whatever the heck you want on *your* property. Don't expect ME to be happy when it starts growing on MINE.

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

April.

I don't think its your opinion that is a problem. You are not the only person on this site who has fought battles against invasives. I think rather it is your attitude, and I know that you've heard that before, but bear with me.

I have never met a water hyacinth, and don't intend to as I confine my water gardening to the natural creek that runs through our property and the ponds that we have built in the pastures. I tried to grow some native water lilies, but the heifers ate them. End of my water gardening. We have an abundance of bog plants that are just there, and I'm happy with that.

I am, however, most familiar with ox-eye daisies, Queen Anne's lace, chicory and purple loosestrife. If we figure from the time my earliest family members, some of whom no doubt packed these plants along, came from England in 1636, 368 years ago, according to some of the bantering back and forth that I've read, we should be totally carpeted by these plants. But wait, here in the Northeast, where they first took root, along with my family, there are acres and acres of goldenrod and native asters. Now, I do have a problem with the loosestrife and when I find it in my ditch, I pull it. But daisies are easily controlled by deadheading and mowing, as are the other two mentioned. I live here, I know what I see here and don't pretend to speak to anyone else's situation. Lord knows I've pulled my share of honeysuckle and multiflora rose and bull thistle, but there is a point where any of us pretending to speak to other's situations becomes rude and just a bit obnoxious. True, the question was asked about ethics and ethics like religion and politics can bring out the worst in people, But if you must speak about the ethics of invasive non-natives, perhaps you should start with the European settlers.

Kathleen,

Many areas are carpeted by the plants you mentioned. To the exclusion of everything else. My backyard, for instance! It's not as bad as it was, but it's been a heck of a lot of work.

Anybody can plant whatever they want. Never said they couldn't. All I ever said is that I believe people shouldn't plant the aforementioned. But they can. I'm not saying another thing on the subject.

If anyone wants to discuss anything about what I've written, or wants clarification on anything I've written, e-mail me from DG. April