What exactly does organic mean?

I know there have been other threads on this topic, but I started this one with the hope that this one might address it in a more pragmatic rather than ideological way. I am merely interested in this subject and it's practical pros and cons. I have always found it to be a somewhat misleading and confusing issue because of the wide range of descriptions of what makes something organic. The first definition I recall coming across was in my high school chemistry class and while that was many years ago, as far as I know it is still acurate.

Organic: Relating or belonging to the class of chemical compounds having a carbon basis.

Given that all matter, animal, vegetable and mineral, is comprised of atoms, which are combined into molecules, any substance used, grown, and consumed is a chemical substance. In fact we are all a collection of chemical compounds. So what exactly does organic mean in the context of gardening? Since carbon based compounds come from living matter, that would imply that the use of anything mineral (limestone, rocks, sand, etc.) in gardening is inorganic. Conversely, the use of all animal and vegetable matter, including that which is toxic and poisonous would be organic. Obviously, that is not the intent of organic gardening, but the term itself certainly lends itself to a lot of confusion

I am all for doing what is right and best for the ecology and the health and well being of this planet and its inhabitants but it truely is quite difficult to know what that is sometimes. Is it better to not use a synthetic pesticide than to risk being stung by an insect which can kill a suseptible person in a matter of minutes or wipe out an entire crop? Is genetically modified food a bad thing? It is modifying those same organic compounds and there is evidence in some cases to support that some GM vegetation may be more disease resistant, thereby lessening the need for pesticides. So is genetic modification an acceptable method of organic gardening? It would be nice to be able to feed the world and maintain heathy lawns and gardens without needing synthetic help to do so, but I just don't see how that is always feasible, practical, or even advisable. Many things in the world have evolved as a direct result of human intervention. So isn't there some logic to needing to manage that human intervention (whether good, bad, or indiferent) with additional intervention and that the methods and substances that worked and were appropriate prior to such intervention are not always still beneficial or effective?

Would like to hear some additional personal insights on this, but please, don't give me any more web sites to read. I've looked at them until they have given me a headache and they impress me as being more political than practical in nature and more confusing than clarifying.

With regards to GMOs, there are a lot of people with very strong opinions on either side of that debate, suffice to say they have nothing to do with organic gardening or farming and organic bodies are against their implementation. Let's not go there :)

Organic gardening is a very personal thing and I'm pretty sure you'll get a multitude of answers here. To me organic is as much ideology as practical, if you want an answer regarding the legal definition of organic then you will need to visit the main organic bodies. The chemistry definitions of organic and inorganic are of little value here. Inorganic is not the same as non-organic.

On ground level, organic principles are; looking to reduce environmental pollution, using methods of pest control that not only have little impact on the environment in general but also help to encourage natural predators by providing wildlife habitats and soil health and fertility.

Soil health and fertility is the canvas on which any successful grower paints, if you get the soil wrong, the plants/crops just don't do as well ... it's a simple equation and the emphasis organic growing puts on soil health is something all successful growers apply to their own way, organic or not.

Encouraging predators and other methods of pest control such as companion planting is not only organic but cheaper than paying out for non-organic pesticides. It's financial and environmental sense.

Lowering the impact of pollution is another key element and I'm not going to preach to the converted about this.

All in all, organic growing is all about balance and common sense, if you don't have the right balance in your diet, then you become malnourished (fat or thin!). In the same vein, if your garden is out of balance it has a ripple effect, not only in your garden but to the locale itself.

I don't consider myself organic, I do my very best to achieve the balance and I believe that all good growers do but very occasionally I do use slug pellets in sheer exasperation and have used weedkiller in the garden, again as a very last resort. 9 times out of 10 we do have that balance and don't use anyting damaging to the environment but even organic growers find the balance can tip out of their favour every now and then.

Thank you Baa, that was a very helpful perspective. I wholeheartedly subscibe to the balance and common sense approach (and not just to gardening), but my wanderings to various web sites turn up some pretty unbalanced and illogical views IMO. I just wish more people and groups would approach it as a practical rather than an almost religious matter :-)

Regarding natural preditors: I have 3 natural preditors of the feline variety. This has made me hesitant to encourage wildlife to my yard. We have lots of lizards, some snakes, frogs, toad, and bugs, but I don't put out bird feeders or plant to attract butterflies for that reason. I also try to avoid spray type pesticides for the same reason, although I have used them under the house eaves and other high locations where we tend to get wasp and yellow jacket nests.

I would like to focus more on soil amending. Thus far my attempts at composting have been pitiful (that's a whole other story). I would like to find out more about the advisability of including "non-organic" fetilizers as components of soil amendments and composting. I do use a water based fertilizer for acid loving plants and occasionally on my roses that I presume would be considered non-organic. Otherwise I use granular fetilizers mixed with other soil amendments (compost, manure, humus, etc.). Does their use cause either short term or long term environmental problems when used appropriately and if so, are there readily available "organic" substitutes that are as effective, practical, and not more expensive?

I do find it a bit disappointing that certain subjects seem to be off limits here (e.g. GM), but since my little veggie plot isn't ever going to have to worry about production volume issues, my interest in that subject is purely academic so I will let it go.

I suppose that sometimes a person finds the ideal lifestyle for them and their enthusiasm for can become something of a mission (or vice versa). It does make it a little off putting but many are staunch advocates without being becoming the high priest too, I would say the overwhelming majority, if not all, in this forum are the latter.

Our garden has two cats and a dog. The dog learned early on that a safe life means ignoring the other animals and the cats have learned very slowly that the bird visitors are in no way frightened of them. We used to place the bird feeders right at the end of the tree branches which wouldn't take the weight of the cat and they would have to lie on the branch and be teased horrendously by the birds who would literally dance in front of them, chirruping until the said cats fell out of the tree in exasperation. The chickens and ducks have also aided this transformation in the cat brain, they now pretend stalk at a very safe distance because while the fowl largely ignore the cats, they will attack the cats with no provocation. One of the few things the cats still do is fish out the tadpoles from the pond and eat them, there are enough to survive this harvesting into adulthood. Even cats can learn respect given time ;)

Compost making is of primary importance to the organic gardener, there are people here who are absolute whizzes at compost making so any questions you have, I'm sure will be answered and some great tips given.

One of the biggest problems with non-organic fertilisers is the sheer amount of salt, almost all are salt based and while salt is a basic component of soil and has some importance in the release of some elements, too much salt is as bad for soil health as it is ours. Other parts of the fertiliser, especially nitrogen can leach into water systems and therefore has an affect on the environment at large. Soils can also become dependant on them over the years especially in established plantings and places where the same plants are grown every year (not a good practise anyway) ... i.e. the plants are using a certain level of NPK and aren't contributing anywhere near what they take, back to the soil, it also doesn't encourage the soil organisms which is vital to soil health. This is why homemade compost and FYM are invaluable in these situations, they help to restore the balance naturally, encourage soil organisms and improve the texture of the top soil, something a non-organic fertiliser can't do.

There are some organic substitutes that in reality are not only just as, if not more than, effective and aid plant health as well as being practically free. If you are looking for a watering in/spray on fertiliser, comfrey and/or nettle (Urtica dioica) tea are invaluable, they are quite high in NPK and trace elements. Nettle is also extremely beneficial to plant health and help boost plant immune systems, not the nicest of plants to grow itself mind you, there are many other plants that applied in a tincture are also beneficial to plant health. They all stink to high heaven but that is a minor thing to overcome considering their benefits. Fish and bone meal are great slow release fertilisers and good old farmyard manure has many benefits although I find it best to aquire different types of manure rather than just horse which sours/acidifies the soil after many years of application.

I'm sure I've left out a few things and others here will fill in the gaping holes or prove me wrong on a few points :)

Ok, here is the long and short of it on my attempts at making my own compost:

3 or 4 years ago, I bought a compost bin. I live in a HOA subdivision and open compost piles are not permitted. Not having a lot of space, the bin is fairly small and has to be situated in a corner space that makes it pretty awkward to turn. I don't have any type of shredder or mulcher, so I have on ocassion put stuff in the bin that was too large or just didn't use it at all because cutting it up small enough by hand was just too time consuming and tedious. It also doesn't heat up very well so it takes a long time to get a little bit of compost and then that is on the bottom and again, fishing it out from under the pile just hardly seems worth the effort for the little bit I get. A couple of month or so ago, I emptied it out completely and started over again. This time I only filled it about half way making it easier to turn and it has produced some usuable compost more quickly but still, with less volume to begin with, it really isn't much.

I wasn't aware of the high salt component of non-organic fertilizers. We have a water softener attached to our in house plumbing (we have a high degree of lime in the water system here naturally) and that is based on saline additives to soften the hard water. We have an RO unit attached to our kitchen sink so we don't have to drink or cook with the stuff, and also use the RO filtered water for our fish tanks and houseplants. Out outdoor taps used to water the lawn and gardens are not filtered in any way so it provides the hard, alkaline water that is typical in my area.

FYM?....I'm not familiar with that acronym.

I wish I had more space to grow things as rotated, cover, or soil improvement crops, but I just don't. Still I do have a small plot that I use as an herb garden (culinary) so I will look into the nettle and comfrey and see if I can give up some existing space for those. Unfortunately (in my area at least), if the word "organic" is on the label, the price easily doubles.

I'm surprised that others haven't chimed in here!

FYM - sorry that's Farm Yard Manure.

Do you have space for two bins? If so you could have one breaking down and the other with fairly fresh compost and mix a bit of aged compost with fresh and vice versa, this aids in turning the heap and helps the fresh break down a little quicker. We don't have space for a heap so we do this ourselves.

We don't have a veg patch at all, we grow them in the flower borders (which helps reduce pest attacks) and containers. OK it's not ideal but it's our way of maximising the space we have. In fact they help in providing some lovely foliage and flower/fruit colour too!

Nettle and comfrey are invasive so if you have a small garden, it might be easier to find a local supply from the wild or someone who's tearing their hair out trying to get rid of them as weeds.

I can't speak for organic produce in the US but in the UK the price is more because we're actually paying a fairer price to the farmers, organic farms here have no subsidies other than conversion grants and they have to market their produce themselves, hence the prices. Not saying that conventional farmers have a better deal or deserve to be paid less but organic farmers have a greater freedom in pricing their produce than conventional farmers who generally don't have any say in it.

There's a lot to be said for "composting in place", too. In the fall, I shred my leaves (I have a vacuum/shredder - very handy; also use the push mower for larger piles.) The shredded leaves get spread around my perennial beds - if it's an open spot, it gets a couple inches of leaves. Right over the mulch, or pull the mulch back first. Next, a sprinkling of composted manure. 40 pound bags at Home Depot aren't cheap, but they're portable and fairly weed-free.

The back beds and veggie garden (raised beds) remain in that state all winter. The flower beds get fresh mulch in the spring; the vegetable beds get a turning. The front beds (more public) get covered with fresh pinestraw each fall and spring.

ok...scratch the comfrey and nettle in the herb garden. Will they behave if I grown them in pots? Don't know of any local free sources for it but then I've never specifically checked. Same for FYM and that I have checked for. (I know, you would think it would be plentiful anywhere in Texas, but I'm in the burbs of a big city). I might be able to rearrange the side yard where I have the bin to add another one, but they would either be separated by a large shed or I would have to move both of them to the other side of the a/c unit and then find some place else for the bags of amendments and wheelbarrow and over winter lean to that I keep there.

When I was speaking of the price of "organic" labeled, I meant more the amendments and fertilizers for purchase rather than organic foods, although here that is true for bought organic produce as well. Both organic labeled and regular produce is mostly handled through distributors rather than direct farm to market.

I do the same with leaves. Whole ones for top mulch and shredded ones (I use the lawnmover) for composting in place and that has worked fairly well.

Thanks, PvillePlanter, Baa, and Terry, for the excellent points you've made! I too have pondered over the many viewpoints re "organic". I've tried to avoid commercially prepared fertilizers as much as possible because I felt that the mixtures are too strong, and also unbalanced because there is little or no presence in them of micronutrients such as the trace elements. And pestiicides and herbicides are no-no's! The stench of them alone is warning enough for me. I too live in a subdivision run by a strict homeowners' association, so composting is a real challenge. When I first moved in - new house and bulldozed lot - we were not even permitted to make raised beds. Add to that a neighbor who thought I should have only lawn like everyone else, and who complained to the city's code compliance division on three occasions...well, gardening here has had some extraordinary obstacles. I also have a couple of those plastic bins. They simply do not live up to the catalog hype. I finally threw caution to the wind and and bought a Mantis ComposTwin. It is a large double drum on a stand with a gear driven crank. When both sides are full, turning the crank is tough work...at least I don't need to buy a spa membership for exercise! I've just finished refilling the left side and have a fair amount of nearly finished compost in the right side.

Now that we have received limited approval for small raised beds, I'm setting up a couple of 3' x 3' plastic walled ones near the kitchen door. I plan to sink them about an inch and place a bottom layer of cardboard cut to size - the purpose of which is to discourage the hidden Johnson grass stolons which I am still fighting after seven years. Then I will put in a layer of chopped leaves and grass - what I call sheet composting. Next, I'll put in a thicker layer of the compost from the right hand drum and top off with a topsoil/coir mix.

During the winter I will have guttering installed all around the house and plan to use four 135-gallon rain barrels. (The 1200 gallon cistern I wanted was of course vetoed by the HOA -ditto a greenhouse.)Water supply here comes from the Edwards aquifer - an incredibly large limestone treasure that supplies a vast area. Three years ago during a drought the city enacted watering restrictions and I lost some plants, as did most everyone else. I wanted the cistern as a hedge against drought - the population continues to swell and supplies are likely to shrink - but having rainwater to use for seedlings will be beneficial in any case.

Thanks, Baa, for the info about horse manure. I don't have access to FYM but have friends who do. I'llalert them about the acidity.

organic gardening for me is a exercise in not poisoning myself. I spent the better part of my youth in a health food store that stocked all Rodale's books. Add the fact that herbacides and pesticides are estrogenic and will mess up your hormone's big time.......that is enough for me

Besides being millons better for you organic produce tastes so much better

Like the difference between farm raised fish and wild fish....no contest

I honestly can't tell the least bit of difference between regular produce and produce labeled as organic at my grocery store (other than the price). However, there is a major difference between any produce at the grocery store and what I grow, whether organically or not. For me I think the difference is more a function of the varieties grown that are best adapted for shipping and long term storage that by necessity drives the produce industry. There is even a distinct difference to my taste between organic grown produce from local farmer's markets that may have been harvested the day before, and my own harvest from only minutes before.

Organic farming is a relatively new passion of mine. It is more about awareness and educating the masses for me than anything else. My big "plan" is to try to help people understand that they can feed their families for a small sum of money, safely, and easily. With a little hard work, dedication to composting, and time anyone can take care of themselves and the people they love, without shelling out mass amounts of money on chemicals and fertilizers.
Personally it has changed the way I view myself and the decisions that I make. It is a wonderfull thing when you can put the garbage out at the side of the road, look down and see two full recycle bins and one small NOT full bag of garbage, and then look at your neighbors large mountain of trash, come inside and empty the compost and go to bed knowing that there are almost 3 extra bags of garbage NOT going to the landfill in the morning. My soil is healthy, my crops are great. I yeild what I need, and the only thing I wash off of what I grow is dirt. Little by little, hopefully, more people will understand that we are in fact running out of room and that we really do need to figure out a better plan for getting rid of our waste. This is one way that I, and many others have come up with to do that. The benefits are endless.... I hope I wasn't to preachy, Meredith

Meredith, not to preachy, words to live by. Upstate NY is beautiful ( I attended CCFL ). We all need to compost. The biggest disappoint to me personally is the current method of product packageing. Weather the item is a childs toy, or a perishable fruit it is wraped in plastic.

I say wrap the stuff that needs it for protection & let the rest go without, but untill the comsumer gets over the fact that it looks good in plastic the trend will not change.

Just thoughts- Dyson

I attend FLCC currently for horticulture. I love the school. It REALLY is a great place to start.... Anyway... packaging is a really big issue with me. The girls at wegmans at the checkout look at me funny because I don't put my produce in bags, and I write down all of the lookup numbers for them so I don't Use the extra paper. I know it sounds rediculous, but every little bit helps. Mere

~bump~

I looked but didn't see where this thread moved to, or is that not what the 'bump' meant. I have plenty of room and live the country and no one can see my 5 acres without making a special effort to do so. So i have several compost piles, bins and one compost tumbler. The tumbler makes compost the fastest if what is put in it is small enough, like going through my shredder or under the lawn mower. But still with all the above I cannot make compost as fast as i would like. I garden on 2 1/2 acres and nothing except sagebrush and grass grew here before I moved here so there was/is a lot to be done to creat better soil. The soil is very alkaline and so is my irrigating water, so that is a constant problem.

I do use Planters 2 which is a natural pelletized trace mineral additive. I have been using it for 3 years now and am convinced it is helping all of my garden area. it comes from Salida CO. and at last there is a nearly local dealer. I also use composted cow manure, which I did get at WalMart until I realized it is an inferior product, so now I drive 20 miles in the opposite direction where I get a better product for the same price. I really don't do much else as far as fertilizing is concernd , but this year I will also be using Messenger which was available through a co-op here on DG. Donna

Donna~If you have access to sawdust, or any kind of wood chipping, that will actually make your soil more acidic. The reason I don't use it, would be that I need my soil more alkaline.

Oh, I just made a post here to "bump" this thread up towards the top, so people would get the info...

PvillePlanter

As a long time organic gardener..........I encourage anyone who might value their health to grow their own food without poisons and avoid using chemicals of any type in their households and lawns. Just this last year there has been a lot of press over the chemical residues we are storing in our bodies - the body just doesn't know what to do with it.
Not only is the food better but the health problems I have seen over the years with the use of home garden and pest sprays are pretty bad. Not being particularly religious about it just it plain make sense. How could we imagine killing anything with a poison won't effect us. What are we immune? not!

My kids complain sometimes they have to work harder to use natural cleaners when chemicals would work faster......but
I tell them to get over it.

good 4 u roxroe, me 2