Autumn Soil Building for New Bed in Spring?

Is there anything we should be adding to our depleted garden beds with poor clay-y soil now (November) to start renovating them them and to get an early/better start in spring? Chopped up leaves? Peat? Ashes? Or forget it until spring? We're in Zone 6a. Thanks. t.

Oh, I'm looking forward to this thread. I'm always interesting in growing my soil and late fall and winter proivdes more time to focus on that. So far I have been mulching mostly with falling leaves and clipping and plan to turn that into the soil in the spring. I to have almost all clay so I add some sand and peat when I plant new stuff. I read that ashes were bad (at least in large amounts...but now I can't remember why....too much potash or something? Looking forward to what other have to add.

P....I suppose I will add some chopped up leaves and leave it at that for right now. I think I missed my chance to add other amendments (like mushroom compost)--it's rainy and cold now... and maybe it doesn't make much of a difference if no one else has left advice!

.I'll just do some winter mulching after the ground freezes where I have plantings, I guess. Thanks and Happy gardening... t.

Leaves, leaves and more leaves. Chopped is better but I've used whatever I can get my hands on that's free. Manure layered in between or even just on top and mushroom compost too if you have it. Peat is ok too but adds no nutrients to the soil. You want copious amounts of organic matter in that clay. And don't worry about the weather-add stuff as you get it between the really cold and rainy days. The weather does a wonderful job of breaking this stuff down for you!! Ashes here in our dry climate and highly alkaline soils would be asking for trouble but for you small amounts are going to be ok. Essentially you are composting on top of you garden thru winter. Used to be called something other than lasagna gardening but can't remember what now.....If I can do it here and have resonable results you can too in your climate.

This message was edited Nov 12, 2004 7:16 AM

That was it I think. I didn't want to use ash because I am trying to get most of my gardens a bit more acidic so that is why I am using peat instead. It also seems to help from the standpoint of keeping the soil a bit looser as does the sand. I've not had a lot of sucess in composting per se so I have found that using a lot of the same ingredients when I mulch works almost as well. And I do mulch a lot year round. 10 months of the year here are like most people's summer so the year round mulch also helps with moisture retention and soil errosion during the hot dry weather as well as when we do get rain (which tends to be short but torrential)..

You're doing good then, pville...mulching nearly year-round is great! Soil-building is not a one time affair but needs to be done consistently.

I can't stand to see a bare spot in the garden so always succession plant, add organic matter of some kind, and grow cover crops and green manure crops. It all helps out tremendously!

The city brings me bags of leaves that they gather from the curbs and I compost them. They just brought a big truck full of unbagged leaves a few minutes ago and I'll let those cook a bit, then draw from that pile for mulching as well as using for compost material. (I really lucked out this year...they skipped me for 3 years!)

It sounds like I should stop having my leaves hauled away!

I'll put a couple chopped leaf layers on the (spent soil) beds and layer in some mushroom compost and sand over the next couple weeks to try to build the soil and give it a big boost come springtime.

(I don't ordinarily use the leaves in fall on my planted flower beds because Bluestone Perennials said they didn't recommend lots of mulch for overwintering in Ohio

http://www.bluestoneperennials.com/b/bp/faq.html?id=oijMHhsU#mulch

because of crown rot, and moles, voles, slugs, etc. making homes there....and I didn't want to promote that!) ---but I think they are talking about mulch for 'protection' and we are talking about 'soil building'...Ah ha!

Well, you can see I'm a little confused about "soil building-'overwintering'-mulch-compost", but I think I'm figuring it out! Thanks. t.

It sounds like I should stop having my leaves hauled away!
LOL@ tabasco!!! I spend considerable time riding around in the fall (We all have pines in the yard here), knocking on doors begging bags of leaves!

Yes soil building it is!! Living in an area with deciduous trees automatically means plants being covered with leaves. In nature this happens constantly and no one comes along to rake them up!! It could be called overwintering mulch too, but first and foremost it is "soil building"! Wondering how many plants are lost in the "wild" because of rotted crowns? Yep some don't like it-penstemons and lavander come to mind-and you might want to be aware of the plants that don't like it but you are not covering plants with 2-3 feet of leaves either.

This is the thread I need to watch ( w/my clay soil ) please do not stop, I need the information, I have friends who will sell me compost at very reasonable rates, and am starting my second compost pile (see http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/20066/ ) but my soil is poor as of yet. going w/rasied beds.

Dyson
Raised beds are a great way to go.
I've had plenty of pick-axe gardens-heavy, wet clay-and I've composted right on top of the bed. They call it lasagna gardening now.
Loosen the soil as much as possible and leave it rough. Layer leaves, straw, manure, more leaves manure, etc...anything you can get you hands on for free. I don't use sand-way too heavy for me to do alone. I must wet each layer pretty well as the rainfall/snow is sparse and humidity is low here. I build the layers at least a couple of feet or higher if I can and cover with black plastic for the entire winter. I generally pull back the plactic on a nice day in march, water again if it needs it and recover. Instant compost on the beds come spring (which is mid may here). Mostly everyhing is broken down pretty well at that point and can be worked into the soil. For veggie gardens I do this two years in a row and for perennials just the first year. After that supplememtal mulching and ammendments like compost do the trick nicely to keep the soil in shape. I'd imagine that for you the plastic might not be necessary with the elements at work. Here I need aded help to keep the pile as warm as possible..

caron,

your post raised a couple of interesting questions in my mind that I would love to have you opinion on.

1. Since my winters are quite short, do you think the lasagna variation you use would work for me or would I need to give up either fall or spring planting in a bed I used it on to give it enough time?

2. I've been failing miserably at making compost in a bin (which I discussed in another thread I think on this forum, primarily I think because I can't get it to heat up. I'm wondering if your method of covering everything with the black plastic would work inside my compost bin?.

Found the thread where I talk about my composting attempts. It's actually on the organic forum in this thread, fifth post down.

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/467355/

This message was edited Nov 13, 2004 8:53 AM

I'm thinking that with your longer growing season you probably need to give up a fall or spring planting bed to do it this way.

You might want to try covering the entire bin with black plastic and then secure it with a couple of rocks at the bottom. You don't want an anerobic, stinky, slimy compost pile tho so I wouldn't tuck plastic inside the bin-just cover the whole thing. My beds have been 4' wide and up to 32' long so the piles are really big compared to a compost bin. Because of this-even covered with black plastic-they get plenty of air too.

Seems that with your longer, warmer weather there other factors for not being able to get a good pile started-not enough nitrogen AND possibly not enough moisture to keep it from drying out. It should be kept pretty moist but not soggy. I'm thinking that your humidity is pretty low like mine so water evaporates really fast all year.

Compost is really slow here due to really long winters and being at 8300' in the pine trees and shade. If we hit 85 here in the mtns for more than a day or two it's really hot!! Usually takes upward of two years in a standard bin type affair, but then I don't really work on it all that hard either, lol!! Find it's way easier for me just do it in place.

Our humidity is actually very high here all year round. I just checked my local forcast and it is 80% as of about half hour ago. During the warmer months it hoover near 100% continuously. I do water it and I have even added the nitrogen compost starting chemicals a couple of times. It is a fairly small bin and rather hard to get at to turn. So I'm wondering if the problem is that the pile is either not large enough or that when it fill it all the way, it can't be turned very well? Actually among the methods I've tried so far, my best results have actually been accidental. I mulch a lot year round and that seems to have been the best thing so far for enriching and loosening the soil. Still I would like to be able to make compost for new beds and new plantings in existing beds. I'm toying with the idea of just turning the bin into a storage container for bagged mulch and amendments and starting an open bin where I normally keep those bags and hoping like heck the HOA doesn't catch me.

Wow, I'm surprized that you humidity is so high. Always thought that despite you torrential rains that it was pretty dry there.
maybe not turning it but would sub manure or other high nitro item instead of using the nitrogen starters.
Oh-h-h, hoa to deal with, huh? I would hope they don't catch you and start a bin that can be turned and is a little mnore accessible.
the wose they can do is give you some time to take it down first before fining.

I've had good results with planting winter rye in the bed and tilling it under early in the spring.- If the bed is empty.

--- Is there anything we should be adding to our depleted garden beds with poor clay-y soil now (November) to start renovating them them and to get an early/better start in spring? Chopped up leaves? Peat? Ashes? Or forget it until spring? We're in Zone 6a. Thanks. t. ---

Add anything organic at any time of the year. It is really that simple. All year round organic matter breaks down, even in the frozen winter the freezing temps cause the cell walls of most material to break down and the resulting "slime" get's eaten up very quickly come warmer weather.

My personal "method" (a term I use very loosely) is to place all non diseased garden refuse on the beds in the fall after my growing season is over. It justs sits and composts in place until spring. I get free compost from the city so I usually add an inch to the beds in the fall as well. Then I leave everything alone until spring.

In the spring I plant and add another inch of compost to the beds at planting time. I then use a free wood chip mulch in the paths between beds.

I also have almost pure clay soil, but in the beds I have been working on for about 3 years with this method I have about 6" of very soft soil that I can push my finger into. It will only get better with time.

I did "cheat" a bit in that I in year one I rototilled and used several inches of compost topped with a couple inches of leaves in the fall. I am not a fan of leaves because it's very windy here and they tend to dry and blow all over rather than stay put, but...

Anyway, the point is don't fuss, just add organic material whether it be composted or simply stuff that will compost in place. This, plus time = improved soil.

Thanks dave,-- I added lots of chopped leaves to help build up the soil after I planted loads of daffodil bulbs--the wind blew most away so will try again with that in the spring maybe....

right now it's pretty bare out there and no mulch or compost at all on anything...I hope the plants get thru the winter with no protection to speak of....I don't have anything to put on the beds right now....oh, dear....

thanks again...t.

Hello Everyone, my name is Josephine and I live in Arlington Texas.
I had the same problem with the heavy clay soil. I solved it by double digging and layering, and building raised beds.
I love organic gardening and have been doing it for 30 years.
Sincerely, Josephine.

Frostweed love your site ,good information. my parents always had a great garden and I sure wish i had paid more attention,LOl am trying to turn into flower gardens now. My moms neighbor ask me if I would like to have his leaves and strw , that he always cut up and bought over to my parents and I said sure so he told me that they always put down in the half acre garden area and in the spring my dad tilled under and of course mom did her fruit trees and flowers with the rest when Dad wasn't watching. Mom did as much organic as she could and her flowers where really great,The one thing they where remembered for was sharing thru the neighborhood. So guess I need to go look for moms books and start reading. I have been trying to figure why Dad put Lime in his gardenevery couple years. Anyone here do this?
thanks Carolyn

-- I have been trying to figure why Dad put Lime in his gardenevery couple years. Anyone here do this? --

I don't do this, but that is because I don't need to, some others do.

Lime raises the ph of soil. Most plants do best in a narrow ph range from 6.0 to 7.2 or thereabouts with a ph of 7 being neutral, below 7 acidic and above 7 alkaline. Soil ph is not important unless you have soil that is well above or below the optimal 'zone'. Basically the nutrients plants require are unusable by plants unless the soil ph is within the range that plant requires.

So, if your dad was adding a bit of lime to the soil every year it is probably because it was an acidic or low ph soil.

These days it is generally not advised to add lime to soil unless you have a soil test done to determine ph. In some areas it helps, in others it is a waste. If you don't want to pay for a soil test you can just call your county extension office and ask what the normal ph is for your area. The entire nation (USA) has been mapped out for ph by consolodating the results of soil samples folks have been sending in for testing over the years.

I also have heavy clay soil and am using raised beds which have had compost and topsoil added last fall. The beds have sunk down from rain and weather so I will need to add more soil to them probably next month. I was thinking of using compost and turface, and maybe vermiculite or perlite mixed in.

Does this make sense?

Also, other parts of the yard, I plan to remove our half-dead grass by tilling and then add compost and/or turface to it because I want to plant wildflowers. Will this work and how deep should one till?

This is my first gardening attempt and our soil has never had anything done to it besides having the grass cut.

Thanks for any advice,

Maureen

mlm sounds like you're in the same situation I'm in.

My new reconditioned beds in the front have sunk down and I even think some of the old clay has resurfaced thru them---am thinking of adding another layer of topsoil/compost mix but also adding in some pea gravel or maybe vermiculite type material to improve drainage and keep the clay at bay....

dunno what to do really...but am disappointed that everything looks so clay-y out in front.

In the Back woodland borders we added tons of chopped leaves (only) and it just looks like 4 inches of leaves are in a thick layer on the beds--they haven't composted or anything--and I don't see how the daffs and spanish bluebells are going to find their way thru it...am I supposed to remove that, do you think? or till the chopped leaves and more compost in around the bulbs planted in there...anyone have any thoughts on this?

mmmm....now I can see why they say a good garden takes years to evolve! and truckloads of compost...lol

Do you think if I keep at it I can have a garden like the ones pictured in this article?
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/design/handbooks/intimategardens/designing.html lol

aren't they pretty though?

have a good week. t.

Oh, and I forgot--here is a picture (from last September) of our front flower bed that I thought was in good shape but is now Soggy and Clay-y

and a link to an interesting article from Fine Gardening about improving clay soil...

http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/g00012.asp

Hi everyone,

My name's Shannon and I live in a clay zone too!...lol I've been lurking on this forum for a while but this is my first post. I want to thank you for the link to that article, tabasco - that's really good info.

I'm taking a Soils & Fertilizers course in college, Thurs. evenings - the prof is a big fan of top-dressing lawns with coffee grounds. She just throws them wherever. The grounds add O.M. to the soil directly, and also get eaten by earthworms, who themselves improve the soil in various ways as well.

Even if you don't drink coffee at home, the local coffee shop more than likely will give you all you want for free, if you want. Landscapers around here have apparently been taking advantage of that for years. The only caveat is to make sure you dry the grounds out, if you're not going to use them all right away - nothing gets mouldy more quickly than coffee grounds. :-P

Thanks again for all the good info on this thread; it's really interesting.

Shannon

I read in the paper about Starbuck's giving away it's coffee grounds and thus doing their bit for ecology--I think some of the DGers go regularly to collect it, too. I put mine around my roses and azaleas. For some reason I think it's acidic but they tell me all the acid actually comes out of them and goes into the beverage.--everybody has a theory, it seems...

It's interesting that you brought up the earthworm theory, too, Shannon. When I was looking into the Clay articles I came across several about Earthworms--one in particular from the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens--that surprised me. It pooh-poohed the 'Earthworm is good' information and said they can be toxic...Do you know anything about this from your classes? I think it's relatively new research and I confess I didn't read the whole article--

Well, I'm glad you're posting (and lurking) Shannon--I think there's lots of good info on DG and nice people, too! t.

Howdy shannon...Good for you, taking the soil course. That's an important bit of knowledge one needs to have for growing/understanding plant (and animal/bacteria) growth. As for coffee grounds, I luv em! (Both for making my morning java, and also to feed my earthworms!)

Tobasco, I remember that ariticle too. It had more to do with invasive worms in forests and plains, and how they change the conditions of the forest floor, inhibiting new growth. Like anything, too much of anything will destroy an environment. I'll try to find the article.

Hi Horseshoe,

Thanks; the course is really, really interesting. I'm actually not so upset about our clay-ey soil now, because we've learned how easy it is to amend.

Tabasco, our prof has lots of good stuff to say about earthworms in soil - they mix the soil between lower and upper depths, they create channels for aeration, water infiltration and plant roots, they line the channels with polysaccharides, which plants like, and they leave lots of top-grade fertilizer behind ;-) Oh, and they integrate OM (such as coffee grounds, and thatch) from the top of the soil into the rest of it. It wasn't the invasive kind that she was talking about, of course...that would be a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Or, can of worms!! lolol

Gotta go, we have a mid-term exam tonight...and the panic is setting in... :-)
Nice to meet you all,
Shannon

Hi,
I've been reading this thread, I love soil talk!
The good news about clay soils is that once it is amended it is full of minerals which are beneficial to plants... OM helps to free up the nutrients, from what I understand. And clay helps retain moisture, so I guess it is not so bad once it' s improved. I have heavy clay soil in my garden- and I have some areas doing great after years of improvement- the more OM the better! But it does take time. And when it gets dry, it dries like a brick, which can't be good for poor little plant roots.
I've used cover crops, like winter rye, in annual beds with good results.
The work never ends!
Tabasco, I think I would just till in the chopped leaves rather than remove them, If you can do that easily around the plants.
:)

hi, again, spklatt--you are too funny! and you must be young! I love the quote "now that I know how easy it is to amend"! (...just kidding you!)

I have hauled tons of manure and compost and leaves from hither and yon (backbreaking work for this old lady!) to amend the clay on this one acre and now it looks the same as it did before we started! I think this spring I'll just let the Earthworms carry everything around as you suggested! ;-)

And now to think that I will have to till in all the leaves around the hundreds of narcissi bulbs we've planted sends my head spinning! But of course, I will do anything to get good soil (since I've become obsessed with having a nice garden!)

Keep posting! I love the ideas. I will go to the "Cincinnati Home and Garden Show" this week to find out more info (and quizz the landscape designers/architects about Soil building to see what they say and report back if they have some dazzling news...

Have a good weekend. t.

p.s., someone mentioned Perlite and when I was researching Daffodils I came across this excellent background material on it-- Sounds like I need to get some!

http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/daffodils/83368/latest/7

have a good weekend. t.

Hi again tabasco,

That's excellent perlite info - thanks!
I'm 34 - just a baby in gardening years. Hmm....yeah, I guess that clay-soil-amending outburst sounded a little naive, eh? lol Well I hear it's much easier to amend (and better results when you're done) than sand, so I'm going to spend all summer just tossing coffee grounds on our and see what happens. And some compost, of course. Oceangirl's right, it has way better water and nutrient retention than sand, so once you work some OM into it for aeration and percolation, it would be the ideal mix. Feed the soil and its organisms, and the plants will take care of themselves.

I'm looking forward to hearing your news from the Home & Garden show!

Shannon

I'm with tabasco on the young part. I think of lugging the tons of earthworm compost we make into the garden each year as a kind of pennance [sic?] for a life not-so-well-lived..lol. We have gardened in a way (on sand, decomposed granite) consistent with the strictest of organic methodology. Coffee grounds are a truly amazing soil amendment that lumbricids (earthworms) seems to get a 'rush' out of. I think that for those of you interested in a "Clean" (free of synthetics) garden, you should know that Starbucks not only allows growers that use DDT to produce their coffees, they also hire children to do the labor. I truly do not mean to sound like some sort of purist, but pesticides are inherently dangerous things indeed.

I'm coming to weigh in on this a little late, but Tabasco your garden looks like it's not suffering from the soil conditions, is it? If that's correct, I'd say just keep mulching and topdressing with compost and let the worms and soil microbes work their magic.
I have clay and rocks (boulders, actually) for my native soil. When I plant something, I mix about half of the clay that comes out of the hole with peat or other OM and perlite. I sprinkle the bottom and sides of the hole with rock phosphate and greensand, which help to break down clay as well as feed the root zone. The I add back this mixture to finish the planting. I put compost and shredded wood mulch on top. In the fall, I mulch my leaves and dump then on the beds. When the mulch gets thin, I add more mulch. I let the earthworms do their work to get all these things "tilled" in.
This process has been working well for more than 4 years now at this house and about 8 years at my last house, and, although I still have clay underneath, the little amendment at planting seems to get the plants to the point where they can grow well in what's basically clay. (But, admittedly, I do NOT try to grow plants that require a lot of babying. There are a lot of natives in my garden; as well, the old "the right plant for the right spot" is an admonition I try to grow by.)
drdon, so glad to hear a biologist adding to the discussion. I saw your comments about the alfalfa tea action in the rose forum and thought the same. Please don't be a stranger to the organic gardening forum, either. (And I love your fence, concrete and tile bench, lighting...) It's so discouraging to know that we are STILL promoting the use of toxins in others' agriculture while having prohibited their uses here years ago. Glad I have a good source for certified organic coffee. I'll be sure not to stray now, since I roll out the welcome mat to any and all birds in my garden.

This message was edited Feb 28, 2005 8:42 AM

Good point about Starbuck's, drdon. Fortunately we have no shortage of fair trade, shade-grown, organic coffee shops to patronize for our free grounds. I don't think I even know where the nearest Starbuck's is, in town.

I'm with mickgene, that "right plant for the right spot" is a good way to go for the long term. It's pretty ironic isn't it, how destructive a force gardeners can be sometimes, when we fall in love with some exotic or other and spend the next 10 years disrupting our local ecosystem to make the thing live in our backyard! :-) It's hard to find that balance sometimes. Thanks for your tips about planting in clay, mickgene - I had been looking for some info like that. Now, only 3 months until the ground dries up enough to try it out... ;-)

Shannon

Edited for typo.


This message was edited Feb 28, 2005 12:45 PM

Thanks for all the good ideas---the pic shows our garden late in the summer after we had worked in literally tons of new Mushroom Compost and top soil and other amendments--then of course the clay has come back up, just as everyone around here predicted--so I guess more OM is in store if we want to have any sort of interesting garden...I guess we could (and probably will) succumb to the 'make a garden bed and then cover it with black gold 'decorative' bark mulch and stick a shrub in it' like everyone else on our block! Oh, and red geraniums!

We try to be sensitive to the environment but trying to avoid contaminated products and use only 'organic' is pretty difficult for the average 'joe' off the street like me. Even if one is using 'certified' labeled products it doesn't guarantee a lot. Our family owns an organic 'certified' meatpacking operation and we are always finding out new information about our sources and the feds and states are never sure themselves about what is what. We do the very best we can.

I will add more OM this month (march) and be ready to plant out the woodland garden come drier weather...I am starting seeds today.

Have a good week. t.