The World In a Seed, The Story of William Woys Weaver

I thought I would share this interesting article The World In a Seed, a story about William Woys Weaver's interest in seed saving. William Weaver and his fellow seed savers are preserving fruits and vegetables against the homogenizing pressures of agribusiness.

The World In a Seed
By John Feffer, AlterNet. Posted September 25, 2004.

http://www.alternet.org/story/19998

Good story. You sure are good at keeping us abreast of news for the gardening world.

What is a medlar, do you know? (Yes, I could do a Google search if I wasn't so dog-tired. I don't usually ask someone what I could research myself.)

Meaning of MEDLAR
Pronunciation: 'medlur


WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] crabapple-like fruit used for preserves
[n] South African globular fruit with brown leathery skin and sweet-acid pithy flesh
[n] small deciduous Eurasian tree cultivated for its fruit that resemble crab apples
[n] small deciduous tree of southern Africa having edible fruit
Synonyms: medlar tree, Mespilus germanica, Vangueria infausta, wild medlar, wild medlar tree

See Also: edible fruit, fruit tree, genus Mespilus, genus Vangueria, medlar, medlar, medlar tree, Mespilus, Mespilus germanica, tree, Vangueria, Vangueria infausta, wild medlar, wild medlar tree

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: Med"lar, n. [OE. medler medlar tree, OF. meslier, F.
n['e]flier, L. mespilum, mespilus, Gr. ?, ?. Cf.
{Naseberry}.]
A tree of the genus {Mespilus} ({M. Germanica}); also, the
fruit of the tree. The fruit is something like a small apple,
but has a bony endocarp. When first gathered the flesh is
hard and austere, and it is not eaten until it has begun to
decay.

{Japan medlar} (Bot.), the loquat. See {Loquat}.

{Neapolitan medlar} (Bot.), a kind of thorn tree
({Crat[ae]gus Azarolus}); also, its fruit.

Great article. Sure liked reading that one. Hope it sinks in to others.

Thanks.

Well, howdy there, Shoe. You have been quiet for a while. I enjoyed seeing that you, Melody, Red and Darius connected at the KRU. Sounded like everyone had a great time at the gathering! How long were you away from the farm? Sorry we couldn't meet up somewhere while you were here in this direction.
I'm pleased that you enjoyed the article about W.W. Weaver.
Gary/Louisville

Great article! I have one of his books and this was a good write-up to get to know more about him. Thanks!

It was great to meet Red at the Roundup..he surprised us with a visit! Glad he did...he seems to be all smiles, all the time, too!

Mel and Darius seem to be "old friends" to me now (Don't attack me Mel/Darius...maybe I should say 'long time' friends?). We've all hung out together at previous Roundups and I certainly hope this will continue for a long long time! (Now if we can just get you there me and Red and Mel and Darius can bend your ear for a bit, eh?)

My DD and I were gone for ten days from the farm...quite a nice trip and hope to do it more often! We really had a great time visiting w/DGers and then hitting the road for a bit, wandering here and there. Great fun!

Wow, Impressive article and very true. I still carefully collect and use seeds handed down from generations. I always fear one day they will not germinate or will become cross bred. I don't grow them in my yearly produce garden. I share an area at my fathers home where he still does the same. We gather the seed and use them over the next season some I plant to harvest for table food - those I grow in my produce garden at my home. What is disturbing in the article is the "loss" of species (old time vegetables). I'm not so convinced that this is happening as I see varities that are heirloom and watched closely.

This message was edited Oct 17, 2004 1:15 PM

g101...

Yes, you might be seeing heirlooms still around (and being guarded) but you're only seeing the tip of the iceburg.

80% of the vegetable varieties that were known in 1800 are now gone. That's quite a large loss I would say. Many OP varieties/species have been lost completely or replaced with hybrids.

Here is a Producer of Heirloom Seed. They have been buying and saving seeds to keep them around. I have gotten some rare Italian Vegetable seeds from them and have been very happy. I also am keeping these seeds around as I grow, I also let the plants seed. Hope someone can enjoy this. I am trying to find a seed once called "Waltham Butternut" a variety that goes way back and was introduced in Massachusetts. Leave some for me...

www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/heirloom2.html?source=&topcatid=1&subcatid=9&topname=Vegetables&name=Beets&ct=hg&pagename=heirloom2.html&type=Heirloom%20Seeds


Johnny’s carries a wide variety of heirloom seeds. These distinct varieties are rich in history. In fact, many heirloom seeds have been saved by individual families and handed down from generation to generation. Each season we grow, taste and evaluate these special varieties. By buying and saving heirloom seeds you will experience exceptional taste and flavor and will help keep these varieties alive for future generations.

This message was edited Oct 16, 2004 9:12 PM

This message was edited Oct 16, 2004 9:12 PM

Waltham Butternut is available in the mainstream seed market. I can purchase some for you if you like.

Johnny's, a seed company I've worked with for quite a few years, isn't known as a 'seed saving' company, they tend to buy from seed producers ( and do not get their seed from "individual families and handed down from generation to generation", as mentioned in their catalog blurb you've posted above.) (They are one of my favorite companies to deal with though and have very stringent qualifications...I enjoy buying from them yearly! Great company!)

Horseshoe - The very last paragraph (under the Hyperlink) was a direct copied quote from their Webpage. Are you telling me they are lying? Wow, what will seed companies do next. Well, anyway...I will stick with them and Ferry Morse above all others as I'm in trust with them. Not because there notherners but because I visited there Farms in Maine. Well you all keep the green thumbs up and Happy Gardening!

This message was edited Oct 16, 2004 11:41 PM

I needed to add this to this forum subject: As I mentioned in my earlier posting;
"I share an area at my fathers home where he still does the same. We gather the seed and use them over the next season some I plant to harvest for table food - those I grow in my produce garden at my home. What is disturbing in the article is the "loss" of species (old time vegetables)."
I live in Burlington, Ma. and my Dad lives in Ipswich, Ma. Why would one grow so far away from where they live you may ask? Here is the reason: Some Vegetables in order to keep the integrity of the specified variety type and prevent cross pollination, cross-breeding and other pollinating factors that can change a vegetable strain. Distance is a very important factor. An example of this is taken from a University Study with Brussel Sprouts. They say and I quote " To grow crops for seed production the desired variety must be at least ¼ mile from other B. olearcea species and gemmifera varieties." So again, I will reiterate about true species of Vegatables. Unless you kow what your doing and how to handle the growing of certain varieties of vegetables in trying to keep a certain strain "TRUE" it is nearly impossible.
I know why most try to keep a certain vareity is for flavor, but does it really diminish the quality of the vegetable. I see the newer generations being advanced and free of diseases that kill off crops. I see the nutrient values of these same vegetables improved and not diminished. I see these crops grow hartier, more abundant, and larger. So, my question is this. Why are we so worried about these changes if they are better? So what's the fuss about OGM seed or GM seed? I wish the writer of the article could tell me because even keeping with "True" seed crops may fail. I wrote abot my experience with a "Blue Hubbard seed batch" I lost one season. Not one plant grew in my garden. Fortunately my dads did grow and the seed culture was not a total loss and the strain is very much alive.



This message was edited Oct 17, 2004 1:40 PM

No, Ed...I'm not saying you or they are lying. I realize that blurb was taken out of their catalog (as I mentioned above) but also know it is basically giving info on heirlooms in general, i.e. what they are, how they've come to be treasured because of the generations saving them, passing them down, etc.

Hope I came across in a much clearer way. Sorry to have upset you, if I have.

As I've said above, and as you have, they are a fantastic company to work with and I have great respect for their system, their products, their helpful advice and the friendliness they've always offered.

Horseshoe - Not upset with you at all. I kinda was laughing at the fact as I said "What will seed companies do next?" any way, I should have been more specific about the Waltham Butternut Squash seed inquiry. I'm interested in finding an original strain of seed unmodified. The market is flooded with a much newer species. The flavor of the original was not only nutty but sweeter. These newer generations seem nutty, but bland tasting. I posted above this my concerns in a different aspect about seed saving and OGM/GM seeds. I think you'll all find it interesting.

Yep...I agree, distance is very important for some varieties. (Or alternative purity-saving techniques like bagging flowers/plants.)

Some veggies though are self-pollinating though and can be grown very close together w/minimal impact on crossing. Most tomatoes, for example, are self-pollinated even before their flower opens. Many types of beans are self-pollinating also OR they are naturally unable to cross with other types (i.e. Phaseolus limensis will not cross with Phaseolus vulgaris).

Distance for melons/squash/gourds, etc...definitely important!

As for the concern about GM seeds? Rob Johnson says it very clearly:

" Agriculture and seeds provide the basis upon which our lives depend. We must protect this foundation as a safe and genetically stable source for future generations. For the benefit of all farmers, gardeners, and consumers who want an alternative, we pledge that we do not knowingly buy or sell genetically engineered seeds or plants. The mechanical transfer of genetic material outside of natural reproductive methods and between genera, families, or kingdoms, poses great biological risks as well as economic, political, and cultural threats. We feel that genetically engineered varieties have been insufficiently tested prior to public release. More research and testing is necessary to further assess the potential risks of genetically engineered seeds. Further, we wish to support agricultural progress that leads to healthier soils, genetically diverse agricultural ecosystems and, ultimately, people and communities."

Hope this helps!

Yes I agree Horseshoe. I can see where the seed need be tested prior to release.

By the way, I can't remember which forum or forum part the I stated I was writting a paper on saving seed. But I have finished it and have posted it on my website foe those interested. The link will take you to my article.


www.gardening101usa.com/seeds/Savingseeds.html

Gary,

I don't often visit this Forum, as you know., but I was both surprised and disappointed to find that the post I wrote right after you started the thread was deleted.

A general discussion of heirlooms is fine, but if someone is being mentioned and I know information from that person can be wrong, I don't see why it 's wro ng to share that with others in terms of trying to prevent further dissemination of wrong information, and indeed wrong vegetable/fruit varieties.

Being a good girl most of the time, I will keep my fingers silent under the circumstances that someone saw fit to delete my original post..

Carolyn

Carolyn, I posted this to both The Vegetable Gardening and Heirloom sites. You responded to the post on the Heirloom site. I didn't feel comfortable re-posting it to another post but am adding it with your knowledge and approval. Thank you for your comments.
Gary/Louisville

William Weaver and his fellow seed savers are preserving fruits and vegetables against the homogenizing pressures of agribusiness

Yes Gary, t here are many of us who try hard to preserve varieties; youj're doing your bit as well. You know my primary interest is heirloom tomatoes and my good friend Amy Goldman does the same with melons and squash and I have pepper friends and on and on, all trying to do our parts. And the person I respect the most in this area is Glenn Drowns of SandHill Preservation, not only for his preservation of heirloom veggies and more, but also for his herculean efforts to preserve heirloom fowl.

But I feel I need to share something here about Will.

We first met many years ago and at the at time I respected what he was doing in terms of his seed saving. I sent him many varieties he asked for. But then his first book came out and it was so filled with errors and he was not especially receptive to friendly suggestions for corrections. And I don't mean just tomatoes.

He has disseminated more wrong information than perhaps anyone I know. At SSE in the YEarbook he has changed the names of varieties, revived from the dead several varieties that were long ago declared extinct by renaming another variety and on and on it goes.

In July of 2003 he was invited to give the major address at the SSE annual meeting for members. His talk was published in an SSE publication for members and it was so bad it was awful, in terms of wrong information. I have a feeling he will not being going back to SSE anytime soon.

I respect his work as a food historian, that I do.

And I'm not the only one who feels the way I do and you know that re posts at another website where we both post.

So I'm sorry, but I can no longer trust what he writes about vegetables and herbs based on my own knowledge and that of others. Is it all wrong? No, but enough to cause concern.

Gary, are you an SSE member? Have you seen what some of his variety b lurbs are like at SSE?

Just recently someone wrote to him about acquiring something in his book that they'd been looking for. He wrote back and said he got it from the USDA. But when the person looked at the USDA listings he couldn't find anything like it. He wrote back and asked for the USDA PI or NSSL accession number and Will said he didn't know what it was. And that was that.

Carolyn, who finds the whole situation more sad than anythng else. Motives for doing what he's been doing? Claiming histories that aren't true and distributing seeds he can't document? I suppose one motive is to be able to list something as being unique. The problem is that one needs verifiable documentation to do so.

Wow, more reason not to trust SSE....Lord help us all if others follow examples such as this. I hope that the learned and experienced private seed savers never fall to such a low just to make claim on Heirloom/Traditional Seed. I know I won't.

Wow, more reason not to trust SSE

Are you referring to what Gary just reposted that I had written to his article about Will in another Forum? Sorry about that Gary, I thought it was here, not there. LOL

I'd forgotten that I 'd written that in the Heirloom Forum.

If so, I' really don't know what you mean by your statement re SSE.

Please explain and I'll try to answer, for Weaver is NOT SSE as well you I'm referring basically to his books published and articles written in the media

Without SSE we wouldn't have all the wonderful heirloom veggies and grains and fruit trees that we do.

What is your personal involvement and experience with SSE?

Just curious.

Carolyn

Good to see Carolyn's previous response in the other Forum...thought I was going daft there for a while, and wondered where it went.

As for SSE...definitely a group worth keeping around. Without them many plants/varieties would certainly have been lost by now. (So would some of us who love those plants, too!)

Here is a photo of intentionaly mishandled Butternut Squash seed - experiment # 23 of 25. The experiment was repeateable though I do not like to admit it. A cat liter box was handled by cleaning and then touching seed in this case. In each of the 25 samplings 20 batches of 25 did not grow what was perfectly good seed. 25 Samples from the 25 batches handled with care all batches grew successfuly. The shell could not be cleaned from the bacteria enough not to affect the seed and when growth was not noticed a white mildew was surrounding the seed when uncovered from good potting soil. Care was taken not to over water and climate/light were kept moderated in all the experiments. Since then I have handled other elements that were not as pronounced as this but did affect the percentage per seeding of growth greatly by as much as 70% non germination. The same potting soil was used as well. The bacteria on the shell of the seeds did not show up until 4 to 6 months later in each instance. The contaminated and non-contaminated seeds were treated exactly like others in the way they were dried and stored, except for hand handling.

I don't understand your post...
so what you are saying is that cat litter will affect the germination of seeds?

Also, if the bacteria didn't show up for 4 to 6 months, where did the bacteria live during those months, or rather, what did the bacteria live off of? (An innocent question...I'm still learning about bacteria but figure all life forms must have some form of energy/nutrition in order to survive.)

Dirty cat litter box (cat urine). I ddidn't go rubbing my hands through it . But i did get some on my hands and then handled the seeds. Extreme I know, but I have done other experiments using common garden attributes like handling moldy grass, moldy leaves and then touching seeds and drying them out like as if nothing happened and processed them like I would any other seed and it did affect the grow rate germination percentage all because I didn't wash my hands as I stated in my paper "Saving Seeds". What it comes down to is very basic. I'm a bit more wary than most about how I handle my seeds and why over the past years of experience did I see a big difference in germination rates when seeds were handled more caringly than when I just didn't watch how I was handling them for packaging and storage.

Here are some quotes about Seed Saving from:

J.E. Ells, Colorado State University Cooperative Extension vegetable crop specialist and associate professor (retired), horticulture and landscape architecture.

Pollination:
"In the case of air-borne pollinated Crops, there must be no other varieties within a mile shedding pollen at the same time. If there is, some of the harvested seed will result from a cross between these two varieties. The closer the varieties are located, the higher the percentage of crossing. If a crop is insect pollinated, there should be 1/4 mile separating varieties. Otherwise, some of the seed saved may result from the crossing of the varieties located within this 1/4-mile radius. Self-pollinated Crops offer the best opportunity for a home Gardener to save seed because the pollen is transferred directly to the stigma within the flower. Even though this occurs automatically, there is some pollen that escapes and can be transferred to an adjacent variety. To avoid this, separate varieties by a few rows of another crop."

Harvesting Seed:
"Seed producers have developed some very ingenious equipment for harvesting, extracting and cleaning seed. The home Gardener, however, will have to do with available utensils. Seed is extracted from fruit after it ripens and before it rots."

So, basically, your experiment proved that you should not handle cat urine and then seeds? I also wonder, from a laboratory perspective, that if you didn't completely isolate other possible factors then your experiment may not be true? Or, more importantly, were other factors involved in causing a non-germination environment, i.e., poor storage of seeds, improper timing of harvesting the seeds, lack of complete drying of seeds, and perhaps also were the seeds sterilie hybrids? Just a few things my inquiring mind likes to consider.

Personally, I really don't believe moldy grass and leaves will inhibit germination just because you touched those things. Were the seeds trying to germinate IN the moldy grass/leaves then they would be more possible (mainly due to the fact that if the grass/leaves are moldy they would be in the process of decay, and generating heat. High heat temps will definitely inhibit germination, eh?)

Well even though "Cat Urine" was an extreme case study and yes very controlled. There are more that we ourselves create without knowing.

Mold is an interesting pathogen. To name one of many - White Mold Fungus.

We as gardeners produce this unknowingly through our composting. Why? MOISTURE and Decay, and not watching how we compost.

White mold fungus has a cycle and goes dormant you can transfer it from hand to seed, then when planting comes you actually not only grow seed, but revive the domancy of the fungus. Nice huh?

The fungus DISEASE CYCLE

The white mold fungus produces irregular shaped, hard, black structures called sclerotia that range from Ye to Y2 inch in length. They are produced among the white, cottony fungal strands on the surface of diseased plants as well as inside stems and pods. After they mature, sclerotia become dry and fall off the plants onto the soil surface. They survive in a dormant state on or in the soil during the winter and other periods of adverse environmental conditions. When suitable environmental conditions return, the sclerotia develop small trumpet-shaped, mushroom-like structures called apothecia. Only sclerotia that have gone through an extended chilling period and are on the surface or in the top 1 inch of very wet soil can produce apothecia.

The white mold fungus is widely distributed hroughout the United States and most cool, wet areas of the world. In part, this is because it can infect more than 360 species of plants. In New York, the fungus is capable of infecting many crops, especially vegetables and fruits. It also has been found on weeds, such as dandelion and wild clover, in hedgerows, woods, and in fruit orchards.

Plants that are affected highly are those that are of non-Hybrid. Hybrids and Resistant grown seed are less affected. So if your growing and handling organic and Heirloom seed you may want to think about hand washing preventing possible fungal transfer to seeds, and growing plants. By the way this fungus eventualy will attack and kill vital plant parts as well. (From the North Dakota University of Plant Pathology - "Seed contaminated with sclerotia is another method of introducing the fungus into clean fields". How did the seed get contaminated? Hmmm, Don't suppose handling may be a criteria. Also, Mushroom is a big contributor of White mold fugus. I'm careful with mushroom growth also.

Cornell University has a great Web on Vegetable Disease and Studies.

This message was edited Oct 20, 2004 11:20 PM

(Plants that are affected highly are those that are of non-Hybrid. Hybrids and Resistant grown seed are less affected. So if your growing and handling organic and Heirloom seed you may want to think about hand washing preventing possible fungal transfer to seeds, and growing plants.)

For home veggie growers Sclerotinia is primarily a problem for peas and beans and appears during wet/cool conditions.

I'm not aware of any commercially available tolerant varieties since beans and peas are OP's as far as I know. What hybrid veggie varieties do you know that have toleranace to Sclerotinia, I mean of veggies that would be grown by home growers.

Actually there's a World Sclerotinia site and here's a blurb on peas:

http://www.whitemoldresearch.com/HTML/drypeas.cfm

...where they say, as of 2004, that no resistant ( I prefer the term tolerant) cultivars are known/


(By the way this fungus eventualy will attack and kill vital plant parts as well. (From the North Dakota University of Plant Pathology - "Seed contaminated with sclerotia is another method of introducing the fungus into clean fields". How did the seed get contaminated? Hmmm, Don't suppose handling may be a criteria. Also, Mushroom is a big contributor of White mold fugus. I'm careful with mushroom growth also.)

Contaminated seeds usually get infected from the dormant fungi on them when they aren 't stored properly and get wet. And where would these fungi come from? Someone's hands if they had handled infected fruits/veggies during seed processing or act ually even harvesting, airborne contamination of drying seeds etc. Seeds can be clean and get wet and get infected with many different fungi, Sclerotinia being one of many. And that's b/c the spores of so many fungi are airborne almost all the time.

Sclerortinia is very widespread in the environement but is not par t of the normal skin flora. Hands become contaminated when someone is harvesting Sclerotinia infected veggies, and a Google search will confirm that.

I've just finished doing more tomato fermentations than I care to admit to and I will say that sometimes I'm pressed for fruits for processing and will process Sclerotinia infected rotting tomatoes. However of over 1600 tomato varieties grown and thousands upon thousands of seeds fermented and distributed thru SSE to many countries and hundreds and hundreds of folks in the US, yea thousands over the years, no one will get Sclerotinia infected plants from that seed.

if conditions in the field are such that fruits rot, then they can get infected with Sclerotinia and several other fungi, but the source is envionmental as in soil and air.

With regard to tomatoes, Dr. Helene Dillard and Dr. Dick Robinson at Cornell have done the most research on tomato seedborne diseases and Sclerotinia is not even mentioned amongst the major problems with Fusarium, Verticillium, TMV, Bacterial Canker, etc

D r Dllard is no longer doin g research since she now heads up the whole Cornell Cooperative Extension Program, and Dr Robinsosn recently retired. But they are typical of so many Cornell researchers/hybridizers who have made so many useful contributions.

So yes, washing hands whenever handling seeds, and making sure they are properly stored to prevent any contamination with any microbe or crutter is a good idea. I say critters after my very first attempt to save bean seeds so many years ago and not knowing about bean weevils and not knowing that I should freeze the seed for 3 days to eliminate those critters. LOL

(Cornell University has a great Web on Vegetable Disease and Studies.

Yes they do and going further, they have some of the best plant pathologists around. And I say this not just b/c I'm a Cornell alumna, but based on my contacts with faculty both in Ithaca in the Plant Science Department but even more so at the Geneva Experimental Station where most of the field work is done.

I also feel very positive about TAMU ( Tx A and M), NCSU, UC Davis, U of FL and a few others where actual hands on work is still being done, oh, and OSU and U of Maine and UMass. But Cornell is right up there near the top, I agree..

Carolyn

So yes, washing hands whenever handling seeds, and making sure they are properly stored to prevent any contamination with any microbe or crutter is a good idea. I say critters after my very first attempt to save bean seeds so many years ago and not knowing about bean weevils and not knowing that I should freeze the seed for 3 days to eliminate those critters. LOL

Wow, I didn't know about that..very interesting. Thank you, I will have to do more study on that.

Yea, I have to find the article about Sclerotinia and vegetables because they mention a slew of vegetables other than bean and pea. I remember them mentioning squashes, cucumber, broccoli cabbage and more... as far as resistant seeds or tolerant seeds to Sclerotinia. It was vague but I'm under the impression from memory that they imply Hybrid seed as being tolerant but at the same time I thought they mentioned "chemically coated" seed. I'll have to dig up that article too in my box of kept reports. Wish I was a bit more organized now that we are getting deep into subjects, but it is enlightening and fun.

This message was edited Oct 21, 2004 6:52 PM

Great Papers written by Dr. Alan Kapuler

Dr. Alan Kapuler (Seed Breeder Consultant to Sow Organic Seed Company www.organicseed.com) has been our friend and teacher since our first "back to the land" experiences of the early 1970's. By 1978, we had begun the first "organic-open pollinated" seed service as an extension of growing our own food. Dr. Kapuler's education includes undergraduate at Yale University and graduate work at the Rockefeller Institute in Manhattan.