Frog I.D.? (no pix, sigh)

Digital batteries worn out, none to buy yet.

I opened my washing machine (outside on a pad) to clean out the water I had filled it with to keep it from blowing away during Frances. When I lifted the lid, there was a little beige frog with tiny dark spots sitting on the agitator. I closed the lid and left him. Today I went out and he was sitting on top of the white washer and had turned a pale color with a glow, like an Opal. Is this the same frog? Do frogs change color like a Chamelion (sp?). He's about 3" wide. He looks like a little garden ornament.
Pati

That guy I wrote(Texas Parks and Wildlife Department), told me that they can change color from temperature changes, and also from stress.
Did you stress your little fella by locking him in the washer?? LOL
Just kidding with you!
-seedpicker_TX

The University of Florida has one of the finest websites. Their Dpt of Wildlife Edology and Conservation has a great pictorial index.

Why don't you see if what you've got hanging out in your washer isn't one of the 33 amphibians they have photos of-

http://www.wec.ufl.edu/extension/frogs/

And yes, they will change color as a result of temperature changes and stress levels. I have a lime green looking bullfrog that was just boy kissed out front that was a real nice brownish pea green before they picked him up and kissed him. They didn't hurt him, they just picked him up to admire him and kissed him before they set him back down on his rock where he was soaking up the sun.

You know... I got to thinking about your description and why don't you do an Internet search in Google and see if this is what you have-
Cuban Treefrog (Osteopilus septentrionalis)

Please post back if this is what you have.

Equil, I think it is a Cuban Tree Frog. (I love the web sites). Sooooo, since I have Bufo Marinus (Cane) toads and Cuban Tree frogs, I seem to have cornered the market on the non-cute bad types! *grin*

The latest challange now are the land crabs. With this last "Ivan" rain everything is really flooded and they are looking for dry land. If you run over them in the road it is possible to puncture a tire. My daughter warned me about leaving a door open. At the Red Cross office (where she works) they were without power after Frances and had 36 staff people that slept there.They had the doors open for air and several came in during the night. Nothing like a crab chase down the corridors at midnight to spice things up! I didn't realize they were this far up the state. When I lived in Miami, Old Cutler Road used to be famous for the number of land crabs. I have seen hundreds in the road along it's length. They were a real problem after hurricane Andrew.
Pati

I am so so sorry. You are not alone though, I have my fair share of "non-cute" bad types and organizations around me are trying their darndest to control their spread via volunteers and public education. I got to thinking about your description and I was sort of getting a sinking feeling in my stomach for you that this is what you had in your washing machine. You probably already know this but I cut and paste something from that same website I directed you to about this particular invading and prolific frog-

"Many people have reported that after they first noticed a Cuban treefrog in their yard, they noticed the gradual disappearance of the other frogs, toads and even lizards. That's because Cuban treefrogs are voracious eaters -- and unfortunately they eat Florida's native frogs, toads, and lizards, in addition to insects and spiders. In fact, Cuban treefrogs are SO successful at taking over habitat and eating Florida's native species that they are considered an invasive exotic (non-native) species -- they are a threat to the biodiversity of Florida's native ecosystems and wildlife. You can help. See "What You Can Do for Florida" below."

My aunt lives in Florida and she was actively involved as a member of a local gardening club with a focus on wildlife gardening that regularly went out and scouted for both the Cuban Tree Frog and the Cane Toad. She recently moved this summer and I am hoping she hooks up with another gardening club. They were all volunteers who tried their best to do what they believed was right by our one and only Mother Earth and the ecosystems she tries to support. There are a growing number of people who are trying to address the toll on the environment taken by these two species. I volunteered with her when I last visited. It is a very distasteful process which upset me to no end but they coached me and consoled me and shared how they felt equally bad about humanely destroying them. Cane Toads are very easy to identify but Cuban Tree Frogs are trickier to identify by sight because of all their color changes but one of the easiest species to identify by touch. If you read down in the excerpt, you will see what I mean. We gathered the Cuban Tree Frogs and the Cane Toads and then they were passed to other volunteers who then froze them. Sad reality but many private homeowners are beginning to do the same thing as public awareness has been heightened and people are trying desperately to save natives being gobbled up by these species at an ever increasing rate.

I am a wildlife gardener first and foremost so I helped my aunt for the educational opportunity of working with knowledgeable wildlife gardeners and conservationists. I am not saying this is right for everyone as it sure made me miserable and I told my aunt I wouldn't volunteer with her again as we had enough issues back in Illinois and that I was glad I didn't live in Florida, however here is what is now routinely being recommended and you can find more information at the University of Florida's website-

"What You Can Do for Florida

Due to the destructive effects Cuban treefrogs have on native species of amphibians and reptiles, many biologists recommend that Cuban treefrogs be euthanized/killed. That's harsh, but true. We recommend a humane method of euthanasia for amphibians. Just make SURE the frog you have is a Cuban treefrog before euthanizing it (see the test suggested below).

A humane method for euthanizing amphibians:

Purchase a small tube of benzocaine ointment, which is used in humans as a pain-killer for toothaches. There are several well-advertised brands as well as much less expensive store brands (generic brands). Simply take a strip of ointment about 1 inch long (perhaps more for larger frogs) and spread it down the midline of the neck and back of each frog. In 5-10 minutes the animal will be groggy; in 15-20 minutes it should be unconscious, and in about 30-40 minutes it will be close to dead or dead. At this point, put the frog in a plastic container and freeze it for 3 days. Why? Because we want to ensure that the frog dies -- we don't want a heavily drugged frog to be buried and later wake up 2 feet underground. That would not be humane. After 3 days, dispose of the carcass by burying it deep enough so that a pet or wild animal will not dig it up, or place it in a plastic bag and put it in the trash.

Freezing is a humane way to kill amphibians because their bodies go into a state of torpor (metabolism slows way down) -- just as they do in cold weather outside. If the cold weather is short in duration, the frogs will come out of their torpor state. However, after an extended time in freezing temperatures, the frogs die.

A good test to determine if a frog is a Cuban treefrog is to grasp the frog firmly, but gently, and try to move the skin around on the top of the frog's head with your fingertip. The skin on the head of a Cuban treefrog is fused to the top of the skull and won't move.
Be sure to wash your hands after handling any frog or toad. They all secrete a slimy film to protect their skin, but the secretions of some species, like Cuban treefrog, can irritate the skin and eyes of some people.

If you live north of Orlando (FL) and you think you have Cuban treefrogs in your yard, send a description or digital photo of the frog(s) via email to extension@wec.ufl.edu. We are assisting a herpetologist from the U.S. Geological Survey with mapping the distribution of this species as it expands its range."

Again, these people could really use help and if anyone lives north of Orlando and has seen Cuban Tree Frogs, please consider sharing any digital images you may have of them by forwarding them to the e-mail address listed above.

Wow. Interesting.

Dear Equil, as the old saying goes, "You are preaching to the choir". I am probably personally responsible for the death of more Cane toads than anyone you know! My two big dogs died horrible, agonizing deaths, one other that survived died of a heart attack at my feet as the result of a weak heart from the poison, and I have a Mini-Doxie, Rosey, that has been treated twice at $85.00 a shot. Fortunately I caught her quickly and washed her mouth so the venom was diluted.

As to my method of execution, it's called a pointy shovel. The toads can be beaten FLAT on concrete by a brick (I've done it) and they will still live. The only sure method is to cut them in halve with a pointy shovel, put the remains in a plastic bag and let the garbage men take care of them. I don't want to fool around with the freezing, etc. I think the most humane way is a QUICK death. The way my vet recommended is to pour table salt on them. It does work, but I only use it when I can't get to them with the shovel. It is a slow death and I'm sure quite painful.

Please don't judge me too harshly, I'm really not a bad person, but when I see those toads the image of my precious dogs in the last convulsions of death come before me. Somewhere in the past there is a thread where this is discussed, and I'm sure there are people that think I'm a little crazy on the subject......and I AM.(grin)
Pati, the Cane Toad Hater

I will most assuredly not judge you other than to say I believe you to be a very strong person. I sure do wish I had it in me to do what you do so expeditiously with a pointy shovel. Sadly, I know you are 100% correct. The problem is me and it really upsets me and being down there with all those people who were humanely destroying them was rather an eye opening experience for me. The euthanazia of these species has become routine to them and was equated with "weeding" any garden. This statement was very true based on all that I have learned about both species. I was able to do the right thing when I was visiting my aunt however my stomach was upset for the rest of the day. I know that both of these species need to be eradicated for all too many scientifically valid reasons not even mentioned in this thread. Public Health being the reason at the top of the list. It is just that the actual process for me is disturbing. The salt I do not agree with however that is merely personal choice and I'd favor the freezing over the salt even if I had to leave them in the deep freeze for a month to insure they were dead.

Here's a thought that comes to mind that is very disconcerting... a child with convulsions such as what you described your dog had. Good God my kids kiss frogs and toads and even snakes Around here it is safe to do so but I tell you when we are down there I told them no frog and toad kissing.

Pati, I do not think you are a bad person and you are most assuredly anything but crazy. A realist, yes. My thanks to people like you who are making a difference even if it is in their own back yard as that's where it all starts anyway!

When it comes to fire ants, I recomend the least humane methods!

Equil, brace yourself...licking Cane toads to get high was a big fad here for awhile!

John, Yes, yes, yes! My preferred method is boiling water. It's cheap and effective. Some may survive and start elsewhere, but as I said, water is cheap.
Pati

I did not realise you were having such awful problems with the Cuban tree frogs, what a disater having them eat all the native species...and those cane toads Patti I have only seen programmes [ documentaries] about them in Australia, had no idea you had them in Florida....
I do not think you are to be held responsible for wanting to protect your dogs from these poisonous amphibians...here, we have snakes and altho I am not afraid of them at all and we do have some very colorful non poisonous varieties..our little dogs go after them [am talking about in our back garden]..we have a particlarly tiny Chihuahua which is afraid of nothing and they do attack the snakes [ I hate to see this as I marvel at the colorations of these snakes..and some of them do hunt our dreaded GOPHERS]....however we cannot keep our eyes on our dogs continuously but we do try to be vigilant, as they could be trying to attack a poisonous variety.. and we do discourage them as much as we can but animals being what they are, have natural instinct and the attention span of about 5 seconds...

Pati, bleach followed by boiling water is my favorite weapon. Found a catepillar being attacked by only two fire ants yesterday. Put it in a jar to try and save it. Heated some water, grabbed the bleach and assaulted the nearest nest. The catepillar didn't survive.

Hi Pati, Who is John? Am I going blind and missing a post by a John?

So licking Cane Toads was a big fad huh? Interesting. Darwin's theories of natural selection in action I suppose. Wonder how many ended up in the ER. Better question would be how many ended 6' under. I am stuggling to imagine the IQ of the folk licking toads to have been anything other than room temperature on a warm day. Geesh!

Bleach isn't the greatest for the environment and boiling water doesn't normally get to the Queen. Tee he! You two are wasting good water and electric/gas to heat it! There are several broadcast products out there now that utilize a chemical that is carried back to the mound on ants. That should wipe out the Queen and stop relocation for about a year. My favorites are biological controls though and I'd favor them whenever possible. There is a biological control for the fire ant that looks quite promising and it's a wonderful little parasitic fly called Pseudacteon tricuspis. I think in time many folk down south will be singing praise of the Pseudacteon tricuspis! It is already being introduced in the US. There's another even more promising biological control on the horizon though which I personally think is pretty wild and has the greatest potential in the long run to help control and manage these imported fire ants. For some really exciting reading, do a search of Strepsiptera. I think they're working with it at Oxford so toss that word in your search engine too. Pretty bizarre stuff but basically the male Strepsiptera works its way into the host which would be the fire ant and encapsulates itself which renders the fire ant sterile. What a shame. Shall I pass boxes of tissues out now or later?

Hi imway2dumb, I'm really sorry about your caterpillar. Upsetting isn't it to see a critter so vulnerable being attacked and destroyed like that isn't it. Again, I'm really sorry. I hate it when the kids see "encounters" such as what you described particularly when it involves an introduced exotic up against a native.

Check this out about bleach:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0820/is_n220/ai_17631646

That wasp was released in my county about two years ago. The bleach and boiling water has been more effective for me. With little or no cost to me or the enviroment. The ants are now organic matter and "thats a good thing."

Bleach may not be the greatest for the environment but it certainly isn't the worst. I use it in my home routinely to clean floors and cat litter boxes. I don't know of any wasp being used as a biological control against fire ants. Do you have a link as I'd be curious to see what you Texans are doing.

I am desperately trying to find a link to an ant colony that will take your breath away. Gimme a little time. Not necessarily related to what we've been talking about but rather jaw dropping nonetheless. It is sort of awesome in some ways. My kids were in shock when we found the article.

The "wasp" is the parasitic fly you mentioned above (my bad). If I remember right it was the USDA, Agricultural Research Service that did the release. It was released in Oklahoma too.

Gotta few links to the ant colony I was thinking about! This is no B rated horror flick either as this is real life! Check this out-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_3562000/3562596.stm

http://www.cryptozoology.com/news/news.php?PHPSESSID=a6d1d18f7d7fce4ecbf510f2810a41bb

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/26564/story.htm

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/08/13/581778-ap.html

I found a link on Strepsiptera-
http://agnews.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/ENTO/Aug0603a.htm

Somebody has a sense of humor about the potential of the parasite increasing the life span of the fire ant-
"Do I care? No," Johnston said. "Once they're parasitized, they're sterile anyway...they're out of the picture," he said. "In fact, I'd love for the parasite to extend the life span because those drones are a drain on the colony. If drones, or fire ant males, would stay in the colony and suck up nutrients for another two years, it would be wonderful. It's the same thing with the workers: once they're parasitized, they don't sting, they don't contribute, they just drain the colony."

And here's a link to the wonderful little parasitic fly-
http://agnews.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/ENTO/Nov0403a.htm
They (Pseudacteon tricuspis) are going to take time to colonize to afford any form of relief. Biological controls aren't normally quick fixes and then there are a few such as the Cane Toad that created more chaos than that which existed before the "fix".

Oh! You just gotta love biological controls! They're so much more interesting and fun than chemicals.

I don't know about killing off the fire ants but we have found a great product for killing off the regular ants in the garden and it is organic and it is beneficial for the plants..it has proven itself time after time, as I needed it for my fruit trees...one word of caution do not spray with a solution which is too strong as it will burn the leaves of your plants etc., [ except for our birds of paradise, which the spray did not faze but killed off hords of ants..] it is called ...
ORGANIC ORANGE TKO completely natural..made from the skin of oranges [oil] there website is as follows, it is also an organic cleaner you can use it on everything including pets [and plants] www.tkoorange.com [from Canada]

ps John introduce yourself....

Equil, those two parasitic controls look the most promising don't they? In the meantime I have to do battle with the colonies hassling me and mine now. Hopefully without pesticides! Another 'control' method I read about and use from time to time involves two shovels and talcum powder. Pati will like this.

I use baby powder from Walmart. Sprinkle plenty of powder on the shovel handles. They can't crawl up the slippery surface to sting your hands. Powder your shoes and pant legs for the same reason. Take a scoop from one mound. Another from a second with the other shovel. Put the first shovel full on the second mound. Then the second shovel full on the first. Let them fight it out. Its not total control but, it is sweet revenge!

John

Equil, sorry about the mysterious John. He's the only one I address by his first name since he became our "hurricane buddy".

John, LOVE the talcum powder idea! We probably can't ever get rid of them, but we can enjoy the war games. LOL

I am saving this thread to read all the links later...later being after hurricane Jeanne blows through here, and they are saying it will landfall just like Frances. Right now I'm reading all my DG Forums as fast as possible. Don't know when they will pull the grid.
Pati

Gosh Pati, I feel for ya. I have an aunt down your way and it has been one hit after the next for you poor people and you all aren't even at the peek of hurricane season as of yet. I'll cross my fingers for you that Nov 30th comes fast. I couldn't live down there by you. I know you get advance warning and all but it would be too much for me to keep battening down the hatches. Did you even get a chance to take down your storm shutters and such from the last time?

Now there there there John! I have a little something to share with you. I normally am not a proponent of exotics battling exotics as I truly do believe in an integrated approach to these situations but I feel your pain. I wasn't going to post this but now feel it is appropriate timing given you appear to be at wits end over these fire ants and ready to pull your hair out. No sense losing your head over the situation but.... how would you feel about the fire ants losing their heads?

http://www.killerplants.com/renfields-garden/20030312.asp

"The characters seem as if they stepped out of an Ed Wood Jr. movie. The ghouls are red imported fire ants (Solenopsis invicta Buren). Even the name fits the bad movie genre: solen- "pipe", -opsis "appearance", and invicta "invincible". Loosely, very loosely, translated: the "invincible pipe-face".

"The "invincibles" arrived in the southern U.S. sometime in the 1930s or early '40s. The ants spread rapidly. (See Renfield's Garden, March 5, 2003) Massive doses of pesticides were applied in the southern states. After all the chemical applications were done, the poisons remained in the soils and so did the fire ants. Entomologists looked to South America to discover why fire ants are not invasive in their native habitat. They found that even ghouls have ghouls."

"According to the Alabama Cooperative Extension System, Pseudacteon have a rather simple, yet Machiavellian, life cycle. The flies are no larger than a fire ant's head. The female lands on a worker ant and lays an egg. When the egg hatches, the larva burrows into the head and consumes the contents. When the larva is ready to emerge as an adult fly, it releases a chemical and the fire ant's head falls off. The gallant fly flies off looking for romance. ("Biological Control of Imported Fire Ants", Oct 2000, ACES)"

Now this beats your swapping shovelfuls from mound to mound and you don't even need to powder yourself up with talc unless of course you feel the need to stand around and watch ;)

Oh, don't feel left out peterson89. Here's a few links for you too!

http://www.naturalginesis.com/id62.htm

http://www.fastpestcontrol.com/ant_control.html

Happy anting!
Equil

"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!" Below is the reason for my attitude towards fire ants:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/452021/

You poor critter! I saw your leg! About the only thing I can think of worse would be having that many chiggers embedded in one's leg. Well, wild parsnip is sort of like posion ivy x 10 and gives one the appearance of having leprosy.

Barring the pain fire ants inflict to any critter that gets in their path, there are actually other reasons that cause considerably more concern that are of greater significance. But then you know this already.

So! Off with their heads!

Oh Pati, I just took a look at your weather report. For some reason it didn't register for me exactly where you were. I was sort of hoping you were more inland but looks as if you are gonna get it...again! I think you poor people have had enough.

Here's what I pulled for Pati's weather report for tomorrow-

Tomorrow: Windy with a shower or two possible in the morning then, frequent rain showers along with heavy downpours and strong wind gusts during the afternoon. High 87F. N winds at 25 to 35 mph, increasing to 40 to 60 mph. Rainfall around a half an inch.

Tomorrow night: Very windy. Rain, heavy at times early. Low 79F. NE winds at 50 to 70 mph, increasing to 60 to 80 mph. Rainfall possibly over one inch. Winds could occasionally gust over 100 mph.

We have a neighbor who has property on Lk Okeechobee which isn't all that far from you and he hasn't bothered to even gone back to take his storm shutters down from when the first one ripped through. I can't say as I blame him. I hope you've got everything all buttoned down.

Hi Equil, It's been a looooooooog day. I'm just making the rounds on the forums before I get a few hours sleep. The storm's forward speed has picked up so it will make landfall earlier than predicted and I don't know how long before they pull the power grid. Join me over on the Hurricane Jeanne forum, that's where I'll post and watch as long as I can.
Pati
P.S; The good news is the @#$%^& ants may get drowned or blown into the next county LOL

We do not have any ants guys..they are all LONGGGGG.....gone [fortunately] smile...:›)
prayers and good wishes going oout to everyone in Florida, altho I know other places are affected...keeping up your good humor must be wearing thin by now....wish it were all over for you all....hope all is well Patti and it is better than you expect..take good care, and be safe.. marion

Hi peterson89, Er uh you do have bad ants in CA. Actually, you poor folk have the same species of ant that was featured in Australia as having formed that mega colony. Worse news is that their behavior has also been modified when they hit our soil rendering them capable of duplicating the same mega colony they have created in Australia right here. Oh lucky us! The repeated non discriminatory spraying and resulting eradication of fruit flies, mosquitoes, and other insects made way for the advancement of non native species. They just haven't gotten the publicity they deserve as of yet but they certainly have a foothold. I suspect they won't get publicity because of the nursery industry but perhaps in time they will due to their negative impact on seed dispersal.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/08/13/581778-ap.html
"In California, they have displaced native ants, decreased the diversity of other native insects, affected the dispersal of seeds and even decreased lizard numbers"

Don't feel too bad, we're loaded with our fair share of ickies and nasties here in Illinois too. We just keep plugging along.

Hi Equil I know we have bad ants...only need to go into our back country and see them...and those red ants too, horrible little creatures, I was pulling your leg [John does this to me for fun..or revenge]..what I was saying [ tongue in cheek] is that WE do not have any ant colonies in our back yard...because we have been spraying with that orange oil...TKO which is really good...we have to keep checking otherwise they would take over..was thinking that John may be picking up a dose of alluminum from the talc. powder he is spreading so liberally over hismelf..or maybe the ants are getting a good dose ? ha,either way that alluminum is poison.....[ he will argue with me..always does] marion

Say good night Gracie. LOL

G'night Gracie back LOL

ps John you know that 'senior' moment you had a couple of days ago,...well !!! did you know that alluminum affects the brain cells..I would stop using that stuff...[ I should know right !!!] :›) :›) :›)

B-but, b-but, b-b-b!

So sorry peterson89, my husband always complains about me not catching on when someone is teasing me or being facetious. I really do have a sense of humor but sometimes my mind gets stuck in one mode and it's hard to switch over. So go ahead and pull my leg as much as you want, heck pull both of them. If I don't get it send me a cyber slap and that should do the trick.

About the aluminum, I go round and round and round with my husband and his darn cans of pop. I buy his pop in the 2 liters and it sits there while he grabs a can out of the frig. Alzheimers is a fun disease- not.

Now about those senior moments, they must be having an early onset with me as I seem to be experiencing them all the time. Sigh

Aluminum is very light weight and the British pronounce it funny.

John knows thatI am a Brit so he is teasing me again... the Brits say AL-UH-MIN-EE-UM..
I say A LOO MUN YUM.... proper like the way I was taught when I became a citizen...people have been teasing me for years so it just rolls off my back ....I even learned how to say TO MAY TOES when folks in the nursery laughed at me when I asked for TO-MAR-TOES early on....so never said that again, I keep learning my lessons...getting a bit old for it now tho!!!! ha.
I like to tease people not really a good idea sometimes when they do not know me...its the Brit in me I guess..so do not feel bad about that Equil...[ as my mom would often say ''its being so cheerful that keeps me going'] I wonder why she sighed everytime she said it ?? actually John cannot win no matter how hard he tries [ are you listening to me John]

Tease On you two sillly folk!

On a serious note, I have one neighbor who is into roses here in Zone 5. What can I say other than that they are up to about 100 now. Those are probably not the greatest choice of a plant for this area as they require so much attention. I swear they get everything imaginable known to mankind. Every time I see my neighbors they are spritzing their roses with this or that. I think they have cupboards full of chemicals all specially formulated for their roses. Granted, they have beautiful roses but... I don't understand why they keep spraying their rose bushes and rose vines on windy days. This blows my mind. I said nothing for the past few years until finally they wiped out a bunch of my bee balm with overspray. I was really upset. They are very nice people. I finally asked them to please be careful and to please not spray on any days when there is even the slightest of a breeze. I showed them my monarda and they were so sorry and very apologetic. They seemed so sincere. Two days later, they were out with their spray cans and wiped out more monarda. That was native monarda from a local genotype that I had germinated and planted myself. I have to live here, not much I can say or do about it. I said something that one time and evidently they patronized me and acted remorseful to shut me up. I do use chemicals but only when I can find absolutely no alternative. Buckthorn comes to mind but even then I use a short life chemical after we cut down the tree and I apply it with a brush directly to the stump to insure it stays where I want it. Buckthorn can be girdled and we do a lot of that but fruiting buckthorn has to come down so the tops can be burned and the stumps have to be treated. Other than that, there are only a few other plants that need chemicals and everything else can either be hand pulled, smothered over time, or girdled. It just takes perseverance.

And now.... back to the tease fest-
We say ehl-oom-eh-num.

I read somewhere that al-you-minium was also high in vitamins c and e!