Brandywine Tomato Plant Size

I need to know how big the Brandywine plant will be. I would like to plant one in a pot that is 20" wide and 10" deep out on my deck where it will get the most sun. My seed starting did not go well, and I ended up just buying two Brandywine plants this weekend, and I have two pots, one for each of them. About how many tomatoes will two plants produce?

This message was edited Mar 16, 2004 7:53 PM

Oh they get huge! Eight feet high, easily, if they have something to climb. Those containers are kinda small for such a large vine, so that may inhibit their rampant growth a bit. Main thing is be sure to provide adequate support - not only are the plants quite large, but the tomatoes are big and heavy, too. Brandywine has not been very productive for me, but they sure are delicious!

I went to one of my sites and checked for you. I don't believe you will get the full potential out of the plant in a "pot" IF you get much at all. I hope this helps.

E_B

Here are the growing instructions and descriptions:
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80 days. Good tasting "heirloom variety" used by growers for consumer sales. Originated in the 1800's and known for the high standard of good flavor. Huge flat globe 10-16 oz./280-454 gr pinkish red fruit (some stripes) .
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STAKING TOMATO for fresh market

Approx. 9,000 seeds per oz./28 g (3,000 - 6, 000 plants per oz./28 g)

CULTURE: For extra early harvests in July start seed from Feb. 15th to Mar. 1st - regular commercial crops from Mar. 15th to Apr. 1st. Home gardeners should sow directly into Jiffy 7's, Apr. 15th., at 2 seeds per pot (not transplanting). Soak Jiffy Mix thoroughly with warm water before seeding. Sow in rows 1/4in./.63 cm deep, approx. 500 seeds per (20 x 12") flat or about 6 to 8 seeds per in/2.5 cm Cover seed and firm. Maintain soil temp. of 75°F/24°C for 5 to 12 days. As seedlings break the soil, lower soil temps. to 65°F/19°C then to 60°F/16°C when they are erect.

TRANSPLANT in 15 to 20 days when seedlings have at least 2 true leaves. To hold seedlings for 3 or 4 days - lower temp. to 45-50°F/8-10°C. Use sterilized soil if possible, a mixture of equal parts of sand, peat and loam (increase sand and peat with clay loam). From this point on the grower must have complete control over watering (no leaks or drips). Transplant @ 75 per flat, then move extra early types a second time to 3 in/8 cm peat pots or 50 per flat, about 21 days later. Steady slow growth is important. Feed lightly with soluble 10-20-20 about 3 days after transplanting. Roots should be established in 10 days. Water thoroughly, too many light waterings cause weak surface roots and soft growth. To control growth and harden plants, do not water until you see the first signs of wilt on the outside leaves. Grow cool @ 55-60°F/13-16°C. If late May frosts delay field plantings, trim about 1/4 - 1/2 in./.63 - 1.3 cm of side leaves (not tops) this will check growth slightly. Transplant outside after danger of frost, in rows 4 ½ - 5 ft/1.4 - 1.5 m apart and 16 - 24 in./40 - 61 cm apart in the row. Cold nights, as buds form, cause deformed fruit. Control bugs and disease every 10 days. Fertilize lightly every week till mid July.

STAKING: The variety in this package must be staked to attain the fruit size described in our catalog. Space plants 12 - 18 in./30 - 46 cm apart in 2 ft/.61 m rows. Drive 2 x 2 in./5 x 5 cm stakes 8 ft./2.4 m long, 18 in./46 cm deep into the soil. Make the first loose tie when plants are 15 in/38 cm high. Remove the leaf suckers as they form, (when they are small) every 4 days. Suckers are the extra leaves that form between the main stem and the main branches of the plant. They must be removed. Make a second and third tie every 10 in/25 cm. Pinch the top off of the plant at the top of the stake.

I guess I'll have to try to find a spot for them in my crowded garden somewhere :) If they are delicious and productive, it would be well worth it to have them take the spot of a perennial or two! Do all tomato varieties need the suckers removed, and staking - or did I get myself into something high maintenence....

Suckering tomatoes is personal preference. I just take off the bottom leaves and suckers for the first foot or so and then leave the rest. I like the extra foliage. It covers fruit from sunscald and I think the extra material available for photosynthesis makes for a more productive plant.

People will argue back and forth over this for days...we've done it here often. What it boils down to is two different ways of raising tomatoes...neither of which are wrong. I don't see any extra production in suckering tomatoes personally. They may get a touch bigger if you do, but not enough to make much difference.

My Dad would turn over in his grave if he knew I didn't sucker...he did all of his tomatoes faithfully.

As far as staking...Brandywine is an indeterminate tomato. That means it keeps growing and putting on fruit all through the summer. Don't bother with those flimsey little tomato cages they sell....that will just make you think you have support. Indet. tomatoes need a good strong stake that is 4 or 5 feet out of the ground...or at least three smaller ones in a triangle around each plant.

It won't hurt if the tomato grows on the ground...some folks don't stake at all and just let them crawl and sprawl, but critters will get your fruit and the vines can be un manageable.

Any tomato variety can be grown in a pot but one that is only 10 inches deep is not going to be the best for an indeterminate large plant.

And any tomato variety van be grown any way you want to. The directions that EB related to us from a seed site are just not correct when it says that that variety ( or any variety) MUST be staked.

Staking is somethings that humans have devised to grow tomatoes, as well as caging and trellisng and weave methods, etc., but that's done just to conserve space.

Those with more space can and do grow them by just letting them sprawl. Actually I'm a sprawler, as it were, as well as a cager.

When I've lived in areas where space has been at a premium I've always caged my tomatoes since it's better than staking them, IMHO, and the spacing is the same. But I'm talking serious cages, not HD ones, etc.

As for pruning out suckers. why do it? I can't think of one good reason to do it and can think of many to not do it. (smile)

Carolyn

I do them all ways, cage some, stake some (cuz I always run out of cages), and let some sprawl.

Course now, there ain't many things purtier than a row of caged Un-pruned mater plants!

Hellooo,

It says that they MUST be staked "to attain the fruit size described in [the] catalog." This also pertains to the suckering, which directs more of the nutrients to the fruits. The above must be read in it's entirety to conceive the procedure for this type of project.

Mis-reading, mis-conception and mis-information can, and will, affect the performance and productivity of the plant, which will ultimately lead to disappointment on the expectant gardener's part.

HAGD

E_B

Also, Shoe, you can take 6' rewire and bend it lengthwise into a "vee" and set it on the ground over the plants and work the plants thru. They'll be about 3' high. My late FIL and I did it that way once and we also set the rewire up edgewise beside grape poles.

It works great BOTH ways.

E_B

Staking and caging, and suckering is not necessary to get "proper size" tomatoes. (The size of the fruit is more dependent on the type of plant variety you are growing.)Perhaps growing them the way your site suggests they'll NEED to be suckered. Good grief, they are planting them 12 to 18 INCHES apart...that's not much room. They are obviously training them up one main stem, like a colonade. With spacing like that you just about have no choice.

I'd prefer to space them 3 ft apart, cage them/stake them, and leave them alone. As for "also pertains to the suckering, which directs more of the nutrients to the fruits", not quite sure I would go that way of thinking. The fruit needs the suns energy to grow and mature, which it gets thru photosynthesis. The more foliage, the more of the sun's energy it absorbs and passes on. That foliage also guards and protects against sunscald.

I understand. But, if you'll notice, you're correct in your observation. They are growing up a stake and pinching the limbs off at the top, which makes bigger tomatoes because there are fewer of them. I suppose it's like growing the ONE Champion pumpkin on a single stem.

The info was from Stokes Seeds and they have people who experiment with the growing of all their plants and I guess they have time to play. I don't.

Golly, it's NASTY out today. C'mon, Spring!!

(The info was from Stokes Seeds and they have people who experiment with the growing of all their plants and I guess they have time to play. I don't.)

I'm chuckling b/c I've been working on my seed orders this afternoon and was just looking thru the Stokes catalog and noticed the Brandywine. They've been awfully slow to introduce any meaningful list of OP heirlooms. Parks was the same way. But since there are so many terrific places to buy heirloom tomato seed, as I listed in another thread here a few days ago, I guess Stokes and the others are bowing to the small independents as having the best choices, as indeed they do.

Fact is, Brandywine is the only heirloom variety they are offering. And I can assure you, from talking with Mark Willits at Harris, that just as with Harris and a few more who offer a few heirloom varieties, they don't grow them themselves for any large trials. It isn't their so called bag and they don't trial all they sell anyway.

The larger more commerical companies order OP stuff from one of the few OP heirloom wholesalers for that Brandywine seed and any others they might offer.

But, if you've dealt with Stokes or other larger companies you'll quickly see that the growing blurbs on the back of the package are the same, in that you'll see the same blurb for all tomato indeterminates, all summer squash, all winter squash, etc.

I happen to think that the best growing info around is to be had from the ***catalogs*** of Johnny's, Stokes and Territorial, but that doesn't necessarily translate to their seed pack blurbs.

Now back to my seed ordering. Why do I do this, meaning, every year order so much more than I need. At least I don't need to order tomato seeds. LOL

Carolyn, where we're digging out from about 8 inches from last night. Let me rephrase that as in Carolyn is still in her flannel nightgown, Jeff the merry plowman has plowed and now I'm waiting for Jake, the kid from up the road, to come home from school to clean off the car and shovel the walkway and deck and fetch the mail and AM paper. I'm retired with a bad body, so I have to pay others to do that kind of stuff. Sigh.

I am now growing three Brandywine in 20" pots but they are deeper than 10". My brandies are 6ft. tall and well staked because I don't want them to sprawl on the ground. I have about six small green tomatos on each plant. I did prune the base to keep them off the mulch and to improve air circulation. This I know from experience - you must use clay pots and not the light plastic pots because a good wind storm will blow them over. It happened to me!

Carolyn,

I know what you mean about them and Heritage and Heirloom plants but evidently they don't mean as much to our Canadian friends as they do to us, and Stokes is obviously slow in "catching the boat."

On staking:

I found this at Harris, too. They ALSO recommend staking, not just for the size of the fruit but, as Tplant suggests by reference, to keep disease down because heirloom plants are not as disease tolerant as the new breeds.

(ID: 0840 Brandywine
Description: 78 Days. There's a strong rekindled interest with heirloom tomatoes and Brandywine is one of the best. It has very large fruit with deep pink skin and red flesh. The potato leaf plant is not a heavy yielder but makes up for it with flavorful fruit. The indeterminate plants are recommended for staking and as with most heirlooms, disease resistance is lacking.)

Harris IS a little pricey, especially on their Grape tomatoes. That's why I like Ivy-Garth.com. Heirlooms, low prices, and no shipping/handling (I don't know if that is for all orders but I bought over $47 worth from her. Didn't even check to see if there was s/h. Just faxed the order in).

Tplant, I'm pretty sure you're aware but I think it bears mentioning for newcomers starting out; that clay pot will suck every bit of moisture out of your planting soil if the correct watering is not maintained, unlike plastic, which is easier to regulate because the wind, etc., doesn't affect it. Also something that needs to be mentioned for the tyros: Erratic watering of tomato plants will cause splitting and stunting of your tomatoes. They need the correct amount of water every day and as close to the same time as possible. I water my plants in the morning, to give them time to adjust for the day and following night. Brandywines WILL crack under those adverse conditions.

I always had trouble with slugs, blackspot, rot, etc, when leaving mine run on the ground. That's why I ALWAYS tie them up. If the friuts are laying on the ground, they're subject to everything. If the stems lay on the ground, they're subject to borers, et., especially the Heirlooms.

These are my 50 years of observations. Anyone agree/disagree? I'm always open to learning. Like the late Johnny Cash said, "I keep the ends out for the tie that binds." God rest his hillbilly soul! :O)

(These are my 50 years of observations. Anyone agree/disagree? I'm always open to learning. Like the late Johnny Cash said, "I keep the ends out for the tie that binds." God rest his hillbilly soul! :O)

Well, actually I've got you beat on the 50 yr experience and yes I do disagree with some of what you said. LOL

(to keep disease down because heirloom plants are not as disease tolerant as the new breeds.)

I think this is perhaps the most common misperception that I see about OP's versus hybrids.

The most common tomato diseases are the foliage diseases and there are no tolerant varieties, hybrid or heirloom, with now three exceptions, which aren't really of use to the home gardener.

Some hybrids do have tolerances bred in for:

Verticillium; simply not a major problem anywhere

Fusarium; most preva;ent in the south and along the Gulf Coast and in CA. There are 3 races and no overlap in tolerance so a variety that has just one "F" in the tolerance listings is tolerant to only race 1, whereas race 2 is very widespread and pockets of problems with race 3 are increasing. There are few FFF tolerant hybrids and most aren't very tasty, to boot.

IN MD where you live there has been an increase in Fusarium in a few areas in the last three years. Some feel it's due to the mild winters and the Spores not being killed. But it was less last year and perhaps it's the back to cold winters we really need.

Root Knot Nematode tolerance is of use in very very few areas of this country b/c they need warm sandy soils to build up to destructive populations and they pass from sand grain to sand grain, via the water shell around each grain.

Areas most likley to have RKN problems are CA, FL, along the Gulf Coast, FL, GA and SC along the coastal areas.

Tobacco Mosaic Virus long ago stopped being a problem for the home gardener and now the only major problems are in large commercial greenhouses where it is spread mechanically. The last open filed outbreak of TMV occurred in MO over 20 years ago. TMV tolerant tobacco has been grown for many years now.

And even when we talk about tolerances, what are we really talking about? We;re talking about perhaps a week or two increased harvest time. And that can be vitally important to the commercial farmer, for whom hybrids are really directed at, 95% of all hybrid seed produced going for commercial purposes, but it is of much less import to the home grower.

(I always had trouble with slugs, blackspot, rot, etc, when leaving mine run on the ground. That's why I ALWAYS tie them up. If the friuts are laying on the ground, they're subject to everything. If the stems lay on the ground, they're subject to borers, et., especially the Heirlooms.)

Not everyone has the same problems you have had when allowing plants to sprawl. I'm one of them and all commercial tomato fileds in my area of NYS and the NE are sprawled as well.

Blackspot is a disease of roses, etc,., but is not a disease of tomatoes. Tomatoes do get two foliage diseases that show black spots on the foliage, Bacterial Speck and Bacterial Spot, but all NEW infections with those are airborne and have nothing to do with plants being sprawled. Same for the other two major foliage diseases, Early Blight (Alternaria solani) and Septoria Leaf spot. So those are not unique to sprawled plants.

Splashback from previously contaminated soils can cause reinfections and staked or caged plants with foliage at the bottom removed can help in that regard, as can mulching.

Yes, some fruits that touch the ground do rot, no question about it, but few do, most being nestled in the sprawled vines about the soil. And yes, if you have a slug problem, you have a problem. LOL But slugs can devour many things.

YOu say the stems on the ground can be invaded by borers but there are no borers for tomatoes. Squash yes, primarily, but not tomatoes.

In the end each person has to judge what space they have as to how they're going to grow their tomatoes, then decide which varieties taste the best, since there are no real differences in disease tolerance between hybrids and heirlooms, and then just trial new varieties every year until ones are found that do well.

The large pink fruited potato leaved varieties often don't do as well as others, and Brandywine has always had problems self pollenizing, so a good whack with a broom or flicking fingers at blossoms is certainly worth a try.

Carolyn, raised on a commercial truck farm and started helping out in the fields with all the crops when she was about 5, putting Colorado Potato Beetles in a can of kerosene for once cent each. picking tomatoes in three peack baskets, scotting along on her bottom piucking peas, and on and on. LOL I've grown hybrids, I've grwn heirlooms, and I still grow both, but the best of the heirlooms is so much tastier than the best of the hybrids, INHO, that I much prefer to grow heirlooms. The reason I grow tomatoes is for taste, and after growing over 1500 different varieties of tomatoes, that's still my goal.

Very good analogy. Thank you. What I mean by that is... like you said... the area makes a difference.

I've always been on the water and still am. I was raised on the Chesapeake Bay, West River, various creeks as the last house I was in was, and now I am on the Patuxent River.

Darlin... you ain't never lived until you've tried to garden around constant mold, mildew, and the billion different bugs that are around these swamps and tributaries! LOL And, if they still paid 1¢ for potato beetles, I could make $5000 a day around here. And I really don't believe THAT is an exxageration.

If tomatoes don't get borers, they get something that makes a big knot in the stem and kills them. Whatever it is, when I see it, I pull em up, burn em and throw the ashes into the compost pile after theyre completely burned.

I enjoy reading your facts and theses, please keep it up. :O) You had the opportunity most of us don't have to learn about your plants. Home gardening is restrictive like that. LOL

Black spot was an erroneous observation. How about black blossom end rot? LOL I found, around here, that the further from the ground the fruit is, the less likely the splashing rain, dew, etc., is to spread it. These fruits that contract BER get sailed into the trash can, thereby taking a trip to the dump, where they belong.

I'm printing your posts, if you don't mind, and filing them under my gardening techniques on hard-drive, also.

Take care and thanks again.

(BTW, the assumption of heirloom plants being more susceptible to diseases than hybrids was made by Harris Seed... not I!) ;o)

E_B

This message was edited Mar 18, 2004 8:14 AM

To Carolyn, all I can say is "Yay!" and "Amen to that!"

"I found, around here, that the further from the ground the fruit is, the less likely the splashing rain, dew, etc., is to spread it."

Bob, until Carolyn gets back (let me hold her space open), BER is not caused by water splashing infected soil onto fruit, and does not spread from fruit-to-fruit/plant-to-plant. Could it be something else you might again be referring to?

(Isn't this a great tomato thread? Luv it!)

Shoe,

It's been so long since we had the farm, and I got out of gardening after my FIL gardening buddy passed away about 20 years ago, that I don't remember the immediate "whatevers." I'm probably thinking of leaf curl, here. I don't know, I know we tied them up and suckered them up about 2 feet for some reason. Kinda grew them like grapes on that fence and the re-wire. Covered the West side of the "trellis" with shade cloth, too, to cut down the August heat.. (cheesecloth)

I'm more into selling plants, these days and do enough container gardening for Carol and I.

I hear ya, Bob. No problem.

Now as for selling plants...hmm, you might want to visit some of us over in the Market Growers Forum. Hope to see ya there!

Okie Dokie!

EB,

Sure you can save what I write to your hard drive. Just remit payment in dark bittersweet chocolate, thank you. LOL

As Shoe said, BER is not an infectious disease, it's a physiological condition.

Many different stresses can cause it, but the two major ones are too much fertilizer causing too rapid growth and uneven delivery of water. Now that last one is amusing for those of us who get water from the sky, but that's the way it is. Other stresses that can induce BER are too hot, too cold, too windy, you name it.

What happens is that these stresses don['t allow for Ca++ to reach the fruits, and the result is BER.

BER cannot be prevented by addition of Ca++ to the soil except under two conditions:

1) The soil has no Ca++; this is exceedingly rare.

2) The soil is too acidic, which prevents good Ca++ uptake; this too is very rare.

In the olden days folks thought that adding Ca++ could prevent BER but that was shown over 20 years ago to be false. Plants that have fruits that have BER have sufficient Ca++ in the stems and tissues, but it just doesn't reach the distal portion of the fruits.

Using what's called Stop Rot is a joke since no ,molecules can get across the fruit epidermis. If they could, every time it rained or one watered, the water molecules would go right thru the skin and blow up the fruits.

And applications of Ca++ as a foliar spray have shown variable results.

Not all tomato varieties are equally susceptible to BER. The worst group, by far are the paste varieties, while cherry tomato varieties almost never get it.

Carolyn

Hmmmmm... I am unable to find that Market forum, Shoe.

Here ya go. http://davesgarden.com/f/market/

Wondering if on your preferences page you have only just a few forums checked/chosen. That may be why you can't see all of them.

Is it possible to check all of them? I'm watching 45 so 82 isn't that many. There aren't ever more than about 5 new hits, anyway.

E_B

Thanks for the link.

Bob, I keep all of mine checked. Just go over to preferences and click on the forums link. ...easy.

Thanks, will do.