When to plant each variety!

Does anyone know of a single place with a definitive listing of the proper time to plant every kind of vegetable? Perhaps also, the days to maturity would be nice.

It seems to me that this would be a wonderful asset for all of us to have.

Jim Kennard

Apparently Wal-Mart carries a Gardening CD in their garden section that's called the Garden Master, that has an extensive list of times for planting the most common vegetables.

This message was edited Mar 3, 2004 8:54 AM

I don't know about that Jim, but I do know the packets of snap peas, lettuce and beans I just put in today gives the days to maturity and each one said to plant after the danger of frost was past. A chart would be really convenient, but then they would have to make a separate chart for us way down here in zone 10.

Peas and lettuce can take a bit of frost, but not the beans, they like warm soil so if they don't come up in about 7-10 days you will have to plant them again.

No worry of the frost stuff here. :D

Check with your local County Extension office. There are publications for each state which provide more specific times for planting all varieties of garden seed.
Gary/Louisville

Days to maturity vary within each variety. There's no way you can say "Bean-matures in 60 days"...you'd have to break them down into what kind of beans (pole, bush, fava, etc).


"Proper time" would also be hinging on the locale, not necessarily the zone. There could be a window of time given tho, that might be a good start!

As for having a 'single place' to give you any info on "the way" to grow, no such thing. There are so many variables, and so many different techniques and styles of growing, many of them taking into consideration the micro-climates, the soil conditions, the length of the growing season, the types and varieties of plants, the heat and the coolness of the regions, the manner of growing and harvesting (machine vs human; the available space; the finances that are available; the Energy-to-garden size ration {translated as one person running one acre vs a whole family running one acre}. These are just the tip of the iceburg.

Very good questions and thought, Jim. The answers will be varied depending on the above. I don't know of any one single method or book that will ever give one answer to fit everyone's needs. (Thank goodness for that!)

Days to maturity is another can of worms. Corn that says 63-65 days to maturity actually takes about 85 days here because our nights are cool. We do have a lot of 90 degree days but our nights get into the 30's some nights and usually in mid summer nights are into the upper 50's. The corn doesn't grow all night here like it would in Iowa so we have to do a lot of waiting for things. Same for tomatoes, some years I pick most of them green despite starting them about April 15 and setting them out shortly after June 1. I grow early varieties. Things like that make a lot of differnece. As you grow things you will have some crop failures but you can learn from them. Keeping a garden journal is good because you will forget what you did that worked sometimes and it is good to record high and low temps, rainfall amounts, varieties grown, results, whether you liked the taste, etc. After a few years you will see what to plant, how and when to plant it, and have a good record of results and failures, personal likes and dislikes. Often you will find you have a microclimate next to a south facing building, or north of the raspberry row where something will do better than out in the open. You might also be in a warm or cool streak, a frost pocket or a wind tunnel. It all makes a difference and will be different from somebody a mile away. Everybody just has to learn their own spot. Have fun.

Mary is right. Your night temps have so much to do with when you get a harvest. Corn needs what they call 'heat units' and it's a formula of degrees above a certian temp per day. Can't remember where I read this,or I'd put a link in.

Our Co-op farm store has flyers that you can pick up that come from the Extension Office that give you estimated plant out dates and average days to harvest for the common vegetables.
You can get more info at the EO, but our farm store goes and gets the basic stuff because newbies to the area are always asking.

Each area of the country is different. Even for the same variety. Thus the confusion.

I have a chart at home that i can copy and post here for you all the see. I will try to remember to do that this evening. It has the planting times and other suggestions there too. I just dont have it here at work or i would post it now. See ya later today, Robbie

While not definitive as to when to plant, the list below indicates the temperatures different seeds prefer for fast germination. It refers to soil - rather than air temperature, and it sure lets us know they like it warm! The list is contained in a large file of information on growing seedlings from Gardener's Supply. Someone sent it to me, and I don't know their URL.
Asparagus, 75
Beans (lima), 85
Beans (snap), 80
Beets, 85
Cabbage, 85
Carrots, 80
Cauliflower, 80
Celery, 70
Corn, 95
Cucumbers, 95
Eggplant, 85
Lettuce, 75
Muskmelon, 90
Okra, 95
Onions, 75
Parsley, 75
Parsnip, 65
Peas, 75
Peppers, 85
Pumpkins, 95
Radish, 85
Swiss Chard, 85
Spinach, 70
Squash, 95
Tomatoes, 85
Turnips, 85
Watermelon, 95

I definitely disagree with those temps, Jim. I'd even go so far as to write Gardener's Supply a letter about it.

Think about it. Beans will easily germ at 70º, they say 80-85? Celery can easily germ as low as 60º (with a max temp of 70º). Cauliflower- 50 to 75º is optimum.

I guess I could go on and on but if you think about it more closely, look at the early Spring crops, carrots for example...they easily germ in cool soil temps as low as 50º.
The list above suggests 80º...mercy! By the time the soil is that warm the air temp would be too warm for them.

Same would be true for Spinach, Beets, etc. (Spinach will germ at 40º.)

I really wonder where Gardener's Supply came up with that mis-information.

The soil temps as published are probably correct in representing the soil surface temperature since the radiant heat produced by the sun on the relatively dark soil would certainly raise the soil surface temp, where the seeds are located. The soil surface temp would certainly be greater than the air temp or soil temp below the surface.

Ohio5, that's an excellent point.

I suppose we should also consider what type of soil also (mulched, stubble, bare, wet/dry).

My soil thermometers recommend measuring the soil temp 2 to 6 inches down. What a big difference there would be at those two depths. I'd suggest measuring down to the seed sowing depth...based on your suggestion then those temps given above could certainly work. (Carrot, being sown very shallowly or even just raked in, will be nearer to the surface temp.)

It's a wide range of temps tho between the list above and other sources available.

By the way, I wrote Gardener's Supply, just to ask for their input. (Don't worry, I was very polite!)

Thanks!

Good points all. I didn't consider that they were saying those were the temperatures the various seeds HAD to have. The way I took it was that optimum temperatures for germination are quite high, and that seeds will germinate very fast at those temperatures. Certainly some seeds will germinate at temps much lower than the ones listed.

Also, it showed me that seeds prefer germination temps that are warmer than those actually required for growing. And I figured that was to ensure that the seed didn't germinate until after all danger of temps dipping to dangerously low levels were past.

Jim Kennard

I germinate tomatoes in pots on a heat mat set at 70 in a basement with air temp at about 54, they are up in just a few days. It seems that seeds are very forgiving if this info is correct. I wonder if these are maximum temps instead of minimum or ideal?

Hey Folks! I already heard back from G-Supply! What a great quick response, eh?

The woman that wrote their "easy seed starting" said she used that chart from about 15 yrs ago. However, during the day I not only searched quite a few of my books but also here and there on the Net. Her chart is really not too far off base. With a few exceptions/changes and a bit more info included w/her chart I believe it will suffice for many of us.

Part of her response:
"I originally wrote the “Seedstarting Made Easy” bulletin at least 15 years ago and I think the chart you’re referring to has been in there the entire time. I don’t remember exactly where I got it, but we credit it to Professor J.F. Harrington, Dept of Vegetable Crops, University of California at Davis.
Upon taking a closer look at the chart, I agree with you that the recommendations seem a bit off base. I will check some other resources and most likely revise the information as you suggest."

She (Kathy Laliberte) then went on to ask for some input/resources so I sent her some info I had gleaned today, and some other info.

I also mentioned that some of my concerns were that novices reading her chart might find disappointment/discouragement. Should someone wait for their soil to warm up to 80 degrees before they plant seeds then for many zones they wouldn't have enough of a growing season left to see their plants come into fruition. From that point on they might possibly give up and never plant those food crops again thinking they just won't produce in their area.

"Optimum Temperature" includes how much of a percentage of germination will happen as well as how many days it takes to happen. For example, Spinach in soil at 50º gives 91% germination (in twelve days); at 70º it gives under 50%. (However, and this is confusing, that 50% happens in 5 or 6 days...I wonder does that mean that from day 6 to day twelve the rest of the seeds will lay dormant, rot, whatever? Any input/idea on that?)

I guess it's a trade-off..the temp range vs high germ rate vs number of days to germ?

All in all, today was rewarding (for me anyway). Glad you posted that chart, Jim. And please forgive me if I came off too brazen in my first post concerning this issue. Sorry.

Happy Gardening!

No offense taken. I surely don't know all that much, so I'm glad for additional wisdom.

I do have about 3000 seedlings just going gangbusters, having been germinated at over 80 degree soil temperature. I have turned it down now, since these are brassicas, swiss chard, and lettuce, all of which do well in cooler temps.

They are in 4 flats now, and next week will explode into almost 10 times that many. What fun!

Jim Kennard

Yep, Spring is in the air (in your greenhouse!). Those must be some pretty big flats.

When can ya'll set out your seedlings where you are? (The cold-weather ones.)

I think Horseshoe hit the nail on the head about the guidline being confusing for newbies. That seems to be the biggest problem with most of the info.I read the chart and thought..'hmmm..looks pretty warm for me', but I've never tested soil temprature. If it feels right, I plant. I'm not a market gardener, so getting plants out extra early isn't much of an issue.

I wholeheartedly agree that the temps should be lower if they are talking about soil temps. Peppers are the only thing that I even think about using 80* temps to germinate.

The thing is, experienced gardeners have a 'feel' for what's right in most situations and someone just starting out isn't as familiar with how the germination process works.

That goes for the growing stage too. If these little plants were given 80* soil and air right after they germinate, you would get top growth without forming a strong root system first.

I always give new seedlings a cooler environment after germination. It slows down top growth and you have stockier sedlings.

This can be a tricky situation too as you can get it too cool and growth will stop.

Melody, i have found that okra grows its best during the warmer part of the summer months instead of during the earlier part of the summer/spring. Ours takes off during the hotter part of the year. Everything else i have grown has done well before that time. Robbie

Okra is a hot weather veggie for sure. I don't plant mine till the ground warms good. Usually the first part of May.

I scanned this chart i have as it is too much to type into this forum. I am sure you can make it more readable if you open it with your paint program or something like that if this is not easy to read when it gets posted here. This is the chart we use when we plant our vegetables. Robbie

Edited.

This message was edited May 19, 2005 9:01 AM

That's an interesting chart, but I believe the planting depths are much deeper than necessary. We use the rule-of-thumb of 2 1/2 times the width of the seed.

And the time to maturity is much longer than we experience. Of course The Mittleider Method is known for growing healthy crops very quickly.

Jim Kennard

Jim, I have found the most useful chart in the book "Square Foot Gardening". You calculate it yourself from your first and last frost dates. No time to maturity, as that depends on so many factors.

This is off the subject, but could you e-mail me your GH plans. That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Eileen aka Skyeblu

Hi Jim,

Your almost in the same Zone as I am. I border Zone 5/6. It has been said there is nothing better than doing a diary of your gardening experiences each year. I have been doing one for about 6 years and have placed some good info on my web. It is still pretty cold here in Massachusetts. Check out my info at:

http://gardening101usa.com/charts/national_charts.html

Main Page:
http://gardening101usa.com

Many of you are aware of our member Jim Kennard, who posts threads related to the Mittleider Method of Gardening which he teaches all over the world, mainly in Third World countries, enabling those people to feed themselves. He has just lost his wife, and here’s the note:

Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:48:54 -0000
From: "Joe Kennard"
Subject: Death in the Family

It is with much sadness that I inform the group that Eleanor Kennard, the beloved wife of Jim Kennard, passed away last night.

Eleanor and Jim have fought a long and courageous battle with Breast Cancer for several years and today she is released from the intense suffering she has been enduring.

Services are slated to be on Saturday, Sept. 11, 2004 at noon.

Thanks,

Joe Kennard
Jims' "little" brother

www.gardenhelper.com

this is a basic guide to sowing seed, transplanting and harvest time.

cricket

I am gonna bump this and ask that anyone interested (Crickett, I have seen you on the yahoo Mittleider Method forum so come help me) in the Mittleider Method come over and chat there about this intense and very productive method. I have had a lot of luck with it...


Drew

Drew could you please give me the web page for the yahoo web site for Jim Kennard's Mittleider Method forum. I can't seem to find it.

Linda

Drew I just happen to run across it and found the address. I did go in and join and it said my membership is pending. It must be a very elite group. I do belong to other groups and never had one to be pending.

Linda, it's not an elite group, but like all Yahoo groups, the moderator (Jim Kennard) must approve new members. (I know, I belong to several, including MM.) Jim travels out of the country a lot helping Third World Folks do the MM, so I guess it depends on where he is and if there's computer access.

Not all yahoo groups require the moderator to approve new members. This is up to the owner of the group who can change the settings to require it or not. With mine I've done away with that feature since I don't feel it's a must for our type of group. But I also watch and if a new person starts to post spam etc I ban them within hours (if not sooner) of the post.