Need three good varieties

My garden is shrinking a little every year and because of that I need to find just three good determinate varieties to plant. I'm thinking very seiously about Principe Bourghese to dry. I would like an earlier variety and then one that would come on a little later, both for fresh use. My family leans heavily toward the sweeter tasting tomatoes. they will all be growing (the tomatoes, that is)in a kitchen garden situation - veggies, herbs and flowers.

I've been reading the What tomatoes...? thread, but I believe most of those listed are indeterminate - and around here with the good 'moist' acidy clay, that leads to rather good sized tomato shrubs. I need to think small!

Kathleen; There are many determinate and semi determinate tomatoes out there. Most commercial growers use these. How big do you want your plants? Do you want an open pollinated or hybrid cultivar. A beefsteak shape or a globe shape. Red, Pink, Yellow, Orange, Green or Black. There are lots of descriptions in the Plant Database. Sizes can range from the less than 1 ft tall Tiny Tim (cherry) to the 4-5 ft Ace 55. Of course there are also the ISI's (the Husky series and many of the cultivars with Bush in thier name. The ISI's are hybrids, but the ancient Dwarf Champion mimics thier growth habits. Most of the hybrids introduced for commercial use are determinates. A popular early one is Pik Red. Celebrity is popular for main crop. Flavor is nothing to write home about but much better tha Early girl and on par with Better Boy.

Kathy,

Dill has asked you the good questions to which we need answers before naming specific varieties. But remember that if you do grow determinates or semi-determinates, whether hybrid or heirloom OP ( of which there are few)that your harvest time won't extend as long as it might if you were growing indeterminates.

With only two plants needed are you planning to start from seed or buy plants from a local farm stand or nursery, b/c if you're going to buy two plants then it really doesn 't make much sense for us to suggest varieties until and unless we know what they're offering.

Carolyn, a neighbor in NYS

Kathy,
Being from the Buffalo area and now in sunny NC, I have been thinking about a vigorous determinate that my dad always used to grow. He used to plant Heinz 1350, and it was a very good tomato. Plants produce very well, are disease resistant, and have really good flavor with nice solid flesh and nice amount of juice, but not too much. Fruits are about 8 oz. Tomato Grower Supply sells them. They are listed in the back of the catalog and probably on the website. Stokes seeds in Buffalo used to, but I'm not sure if they still do. I also used to grow Principe Borghese, and it was great for drying. I just cut the fruits in half from top to bottom and threw them in the dehydrator for 48 hours. You could probably make a solar dryer up in Panama b/c the humidity probably isn't too high in august when you'd be picking them. They yield really well and were very vigorous and tasty when eaten fresh.
There really seems to be a debate down here in NC about "olde time flavor" in tomatoes and how its is sorely lacking. Part of my thinking is that the soils up north seem to produce a better tasting tomato, (more acidic) plus its not as hot in the summer. Down here, if you grow on sandy soil like I do, you have to irrigate more during dry spells. However, I heavily amend my tomato beds with compost to avoid that. I think the extra irrigation that other farmers may do can lead to watered down flavor. Also, northern clays are different than the bright red clay of the piedmont in NC, GA, and VA. Southern PA seems to be the dividing line where the darker soil starts to turn reddish.
Secondly, these newer determinate varieties produce up to 10lbs fruit/plant which is alot. Makes you wonder if that is also a reason for weaker flavor.
Take a look at Carolyn Male's book. Consider the indeterminates.
I also like the hybrid "Big Beef", although its indeterminate. Great flavor, disease resistant, and vigorous.

This message was edited Jan 18, 2004 5:29 PM

Good questions - I apologize for having left so many specifics open. Pretty much red tomatoes. I'm the main tomato eater, but if its red and sweet, I can get the rest of them to put up with a few. The space really is a problem - each plant will probably get only about 3 feet to itself. I'm thinking about a new bed dedicated to three plants, and a space for one in the bed on the south wall of the plant room.

Having looked through Territorial, Baker Creek, SSE, and Pinetree, Oregon Spring kept coming up in the early varieties.

I can deal with hybrids, but just out of a certain sensibility would probably prefer OPs.

(Oregon Spring kept coming up in the early varieties.)

Kathy, I really can't recommend that one. It's part of a series that was bred by Dr. Baggett at OSU for folks in the PNW who have cool springs b/c fruits will set when the temps are too cool for normal pollination, and it's what is called a parthenocarpic variety.

I won't go thru the whole explanation on that other than to say that fruits develop in the absence of pollination and thus the flesh is soft and kind of mushy, which is true for all parthenocarpic varieties. I've grown it and a couple of other parthenocarpic ones.

If you're looking at your SSE seed catalog why don't you look at the following as possibilities:

Wisconsin 55
Siberian
Silvery Fir Tree
Czech's Bush

And also look at, in TGS or elsewhere:

Rutgers
Sophie's Choice
Ace 55

All of the above are red and are determinaate or semi-determinate.

You know, you say you have just three feet per plant, but I grow hundreds of different varieties, most of them indeterminate, at that spacing within a row, but there's usually about 5 ft between the rows. That's if they're allowed to sprawl.

if you grow them by caging them in decent cages you can space the cages on three foot spacing and grow any of the great indeterminates you want to.

Carolyn

Carolyn, thanks, this is exactly what I wanted. I'm going to order through Baker Creek, I think. Probably Rutgers, I guess I'll have to look through again.

Send me your address Kathleen, I'll send you Rutger's! My treat!

I agree wholeheartedly with Carolyn's suggestion of silvery fir tree. That is a fabulous tomato.

Kathleen Ill see shoes offer of Rugters with ace55 and raise him one with siberian. You will never know what else until you send address.Ernie

Rutgers is a good tomato Kathleen. Lots of old timers in this area love it. It's on my list for plant sales this year.

Whats the deal shoe you calling or raising I still have my hole card? Ernie

I fold, ernie~ (Besides I sent seeds out today! To YOU and Kathleen!) Nyah Nyahhhh!!!....;>)

Shoe folding is unsportsmanlike.

Tumblers just arrived today and your envlope is addressed but you never told me how many you want so call the ball. Ernie

Boy, am I out of my league!

It looks like Rutgers, Ace55 and Siberian (thanks to Shoe and Ernie) and Principe Borghese and The Dutchman from Baker Creek. I don't know anything about the Dutchman, but I'm married to one (actually several generations removed, but the line is strong) so it seemed appropriate. Hmmm, don't know much about math either - that has me up to 5 good varieties!

Thank you to everyone for your help. You may have noticed that tomatoes are not my stong suit (inspite of all of Melody's good efforts) - but if you want to talk about some old roses, I could probably hold up my end of the conversation.

Kathleen opps sorry I may have goofed I thought siberian was a typo I have siberia which I like and I will send anyway.

Before Dalhias I had 89 roses tea, grandifloria, and climers which I grew for about 10 years.

Nothing is allowed to grow in moderation on these two acres.

Will package up your seeds this weekend. Send Addy. Ernie

ernine, if those Tumblers were the ones you mentioned good for hanging baskets I'll take enuff seed for a couple baskets, or whatever you can spare.

As for folding, it's a perfectly acceptable rule! Besides, whenever I have a good hand my feet start bobbing up and down causing my knees to palpate the underside of the table...a dead give-away!

Kathleen, only roses I know about are Rugosa...and I really need to dig those up and move them somewhere! (In the Spring before they break dormancy??)

Shoe, you can move them anytime that you can dig the dirt. Whack them back to about 18 inches, and keep them watered well. Rugosas are very hardy and quite forgiving. I have at least 5 different varieties of rugosa and hope to have a couple more if the cuttigs take root.

Ernie, things that grow well here grow immoderantly. I've about been take over by hardy geraniums, old garden roses, goldenrod and johnny-jump-ups!

okay. Thanks!

Shoe done deal will mail by Sat they are for the basket program think maybe the upside down planting program would be ok to you will enjoy I am sure.

Last call for anything else?

Meatloaf with fried red and yellow peppers with onion, ambercup squash. Green salid minus icky store tomatoes but with pickled asparagus, pickled beets,romaine heart lettuce, sunflower seeds and alfalfa sprouts ummm. Think I'll skip desert.Ernie

Great! Thanks ernie. I'm much obliged!

(Left-over Southern-style pork and beans {lean pork chunks seared, seasoned, then simmered in a broth till tender; white beans and corn added then simmered an hour}; cabbage/carrot/miso soup on the side, also left-over {didn't have wakame or kombu so used home-grown cabbage Early Jersey Wakefield!}). My my my!

Kathleen seven types on the way.

Shoe just sent Linda out in the side car with Window Box Roma and Tumbler. I am only going to start about 60 so I have back up if you have a misfire or don't think you have enough when they sprout. They make well recieved gifts for little ardener no thumb.

Got yours today mine won't be as quick as they are being mailed from Lynden a Dutch town that won't allow dancing or mail to be picked up on sunday. Farmers do milk cows on Sunday but cut green feed in the dark so no one will see them. Think we can't see the tractor lights in the dark lol. Ernie

Oh my...Linda is out in the side car? Isn't that what hooks up to a motorcycle? (She's in a side car w/no motorcycle? Oh my!)

I don't think our town sends mail out on Sunday either. Day off I suppose. And most folks wouldn't dare be caught out in a field after dark!

Has anyone tried Parks Pink Razzleberry Tomatoes? Rutgers get my vote too.
Teresa in KY

Shoe remember the three stooges? one episode was about the motorcycle driving off leaving the boss sitting as the cycle zoomed off. Next time we see them loading up the boss gets on the cycle and makes the dumb one get in the side car. Ready set the side car zooms off leaving the boss sitting on the motorless cycle.

So see side cars can be operated without being attached. Thats my story and I sticking to it. Besides I saw it on tv so it must be so. Beam me up shoe. Ernie

This message was edited Jan 25, 2004 1:01 PM

teresa, not me, have never heard of that variety. Have you tried them yet?

Ernie, sounds like I better start motorcycling again! :>)