What Went Wrong?

All my Tomatos are dead or dying!! It started from the lowest branch and worked it's way up. The leaves started to dry(leathery)and turn tannish and every day it would go higher and higher and within ten days it had reached the top 2/3 of my plants! All my tender care and work ......
I live in zone 10 of south Fl. and grow my plants in 20 in. pots,use Sam's Choice potting soil mixed with 50% Black Cow manure with a sprinkle of osmocote, watering regularly and checking moisture with a moisture meter. Average temp. is 83 degrees with rain showers every three or four days. I use the new rubber mulch from cut-up tires.
Just checked the root system and that seems to be perfect.
The Plants were: Homestead 500,Tropic,Neptune, BHN-444,Enchantment,SweetMillion,Sunmaster,BlackCherry,Carnival
plus a few others but all having ultra high desease resistence. What shall I do????

Questions:
1) Will I be able to use the same pots again?
2) Can I use the same soil?
3) Should I try another variety?

I have new seedlings that look very healthy with the exception of some leaf miner activity and they are in their second transplant and will be ready for final plant in about a week.

ANY HELP GREATLY APPRECIATED.

this sounds like a fungal problem and those are usually soil-borne. It would probably be a mistake to try to re-use the soil but the pots can be sterilized with a 10% bleach solution and re-used. It is wise to choose disease resistant varieties but none are disease-proof! I've never used the recycled rubber type but a mulch is a good idea since it can protect the lower branches from soil splashing up and spreading disease. Fungal diseases are more prevalent in damp, humid conditions so good air flow is important.It sounds like you are doing the right things- did you get a crop before the disease set in? Here in Ohio I figure on the tomato plants looking pretty ratty by seasons end but we do get some BEAUTIFUL tomatoes before that happens. Have you ever tried a toasted onion bagel with cream cheese and a slice of tomato with fresh ground pepper? HEAVEN!! MW

1) Will I be able to use the same pots again?
2) Can I use the same soil?
3) Should I try another variety?

If you're growing in pots and using fresh soil mix, etc, then you can rule out any of the soil borne diseases such as Fusarium, Verticillium or Root Knot Nematodes, all of which can be prevaelnt in your area.

You don't describe leaf symptoms that would make me think a virus infection since FL has several gemini virus diseases that are insect transmitted.

That leaves us pretty much with foliage diseases, which is what your description suggests. And there are **no** tomato varieties, either hybrid or OP, that have any tolerance to foliage diseases, with two exceptions, and those aren't meaningful for the home gardener.

The most common foliage diseases are Early Blight (Alternaria), which can infect at any time during the season and Septoria Leaf Spot, both of which are fungal, and Bacterial Speck and Bacterial Spot, which are bacterial.

I could go thru a long diagnosis routine with you asking you to describe the specific lesions on the leaves, but in the end it doesn't matter that much b/c while one can treat plants to prevent fungal foliage infections one can't do that for bacterial infections.

If your gardening philosophy allows for it, you can use Daconil ( chlorothalinol), sold as Ortho Garden Disease Control, which does an excellent job of preventing the fungal foliage infections if a regular spray schedule is maintained. The bacterial ones don't progress as fast as the fungal ones and a harvest is almost always obtained.

Daconil is less toxic than Rotenone, for instance, which is approved for use by all organic certifying agencies that I know of. Daconil can also be applied up to the day of harvest which also tells you that toxicity is low/

Spores and bacteria will have been shed into the pots. But my feeling is that that doesn't mean you should throw out all the material in the pots.

Two reasons for that.

First, all new foliage infections are airborne, so even if you change all the mix there's no way you can prevent new airborne infections for your Spring crop.

Second, if you wish you can carefully remove maybe the top 6 inches of soil mix b'c those are large pots you[re using.

I hope this has been helpful.

In the future it would also be a good idea to mulch the plants in the pots since splashback from irrigation can cause reinfections of the plant if any spores or bacteria remain in the soil mix.

Carolyn

Tplant,
Sorry I'm late on my reply. I live Tampabay area. When I grow tomatoes I never ever use the same soiless mixture twice. Why ask for possible problems. (I grow them in my own Growth Containers---big Earthboxes which I make.)

Next IMO you have way too much Black Cow. I would suggest no more than 10-15%. Why? Too much nitrogen!

Next if you use chemical fertilizers and reuse the same soil a couple of time the salts can become a problem and kill your plants. Are you using chemical fertilizers, and if so are you reusing the soil? While you can get away with chemical fertilizers in ground, it is much harder to do so in containers. (I'm totally organic.) I know that there are folks who use C-fertilizers in containers and say they never have a problem. However, when you ask them how often they have to change out the soil it then becomes another matter.

I have plants I never have to change out the soil...plus in many of my containers I have earthworms.

If possible try to take some pictures next time and post them for us to see.

Good Luck
Olds

I don't have an answer - but further questions. I too live in Central Florida and I've lost almost my whole fall tomato crop this year - from what - I don't know!! I started them in pots and then transferred to the ground, that is when they started dying and haven't stopped yet. I down from 60 plants to 10 and dropping. What I don't understand is some died right away, others grew up to 2 feet and died and still others (the ones left now) are up to 4' high with lots of big and small green tomatoes on them and they are starting to die. There are no spots on the leaves, they simply start wilting in one spot and it works it's way up and eventually the whole plant has wilted and dies.

I'm growing burpee's big boy and better boy bush tomatoes. I've treated the plants and the soil with Ortho's garden disease treatment (daconil sp?) as well as Triacide (which has apparently replaced Diazinon). I don't know what else to do!!

When I pull up the dead plants they seem to have a hollow in the lower stem, perhaps stem worms? But what else can I do to treat for that? I remove the dead plants from the area, and have sprayed and poured these treatments on and around the tomatoes.

They have plenty of water, plenty of sun - and some of the plants (so far) look WONDERFUL - but it seems to just be a matter of time before they all succumb to whatever this is.

Does anyone have anything else that I should try to stop this?

Thanks!!

Just a quick question here...

why'd you treat your soil like that? Did you experience something that called for such measures?

Yes - everything was dying! I didn't treat it that way until all the plants started wilting and dying and I couldn't see anything attacking them from the top, so I assumed it was coming from the soil.

You certainly have my curiosity piqued now, onalee, especially the hollow stems.

When you pulled up the plants, did they have a good root system? (Sorry, I'm just full of questions, eh?) I doubt that you have much hardpan in Fla but does it look like the roots grew rather well and at a certain point became restricted in their growth somehow?

Am also wondering if there could be a spray-drift from someone nearby who is spraying herbicides or the like.

Wish I could come up with a definite answer but there are so many factors to consider (soil tests for pH level, nematodes, available nutrition). I'll be putting my thinking cap on and also checking out other leads. Hope we can figure something out for you.

Wilting and dying usually does indicate a systemic infection as opposed to a foliage infection.

Could be Root Knot Nematodes, or Fusarium or Verticilium or one of the many viral diseases to be found in FL.All of these are soil borne except for the viral ones which are insect transmitted.

But nothing you used would help any of those situations becasue there are no good preventatives for systemic infections.

And even those varieties that are supposedly tolerant to Fusarium and RKN's and Verticillium or not resistant, they are tolerant. And there'ss a big difference there.

It would be best to know what the problem is first, before treating as you did, especially with respect to something like Dianzinon and friends.

So it could be a disease problem or it could be a soil problem or a combo of both.

Did you start all of them from seed yourself?

And what did you put in the planting holes in the ground and what did you fertilize them with and how often?

And could you please describe the exact progression of what happens? That is, leaves turn color or stay green when they wilt, etc. How long to die and what color when they are dead.

Carolyn

It seems like we "Floridians" are having the same problems!
My plants are started from seed and are transplanted into
4 in. peat pots and finally into clay 20in. containers with a commercial potting mix "Walmarts Sam's Choice" and a 30% mix of "Black Cow" plus a mix of bonemeal(1 part)bloodmeal(3 parts)and Kelp meal(1part) mixed togeather and
added to the soil. they seem to do great for a couple of weeks or so then it starts>>>lower leaves turn brown and progresses on up to the top 2/3 of the plant. The rest is explained in my initial thread.

onalee

You say you lost your fall tomato plants. That tell me you were growing them through our summer heat. Given where you live is much hotter than here in St. Petersburg I have to say that other than cherry types of tomatoes the ONLY other tomatoe I have ever been able to get to grow here in the summer is HeatWave. There is no way big boy and better boy bush tomatoes are going to make it though our summers. Sure a few might; however much damage has already been done. The fact that you are growing big boy and better boy bush tomatoes this time of the year is clearly the problem in my mind. My first year out the gate here and I did just what you did. It bites!

Try the big boy and better boy bush tomatoes in the cooler months. In fact if you started late December come late spring you would have one nice garden. If you are worried about a freeze just move them up in bigger pots until March. Shoot you could probably start them now.


*******
Tplant,
First I think your fertilizer is way out of balance. 50%-30% black cow and 3 parts bloodmeal....way way too much nitrogen for the balance you listed. And not nearly enough phosphorus or potassium for your tomatoe plants. Also you do not list anything for micronutrients. Soiless mixture has none, zip food value for a plant. If this is all you put into your mixture your tomatoe plants started out behind the 8-ball to begin with.

Next while clay containers "breathe" this also means more moisture loss. IMO the best thing you can say about a clay pot is it will not become anaerobic.

Furthermore, black chipped rubber tires as mulch is a no no here in the summer months. It collects and retains way too much heat. If you need to cover the mixture use white plastic trash bags if nothing else.

All and all from your two postings I can see in my mind's eye reason(s) for your current problems.

If I may be as bold I will list below what I use.

First I mix my own soilless mixture.

My base soilless mixture.
3 parts Ground pine bark (I run it through a chipper)
2 parts sphagnum moss
1 part Perlite /Vermiculite
1/2 part builders sand.
1 pint dolomite lime per bushel of soil mix

I do not use any wetting agents. This means you will have to really work at getting this mixture wet. Once it is wet don't let it dry out. (Store bought is ok if it is light in weight for it size--if too heavy and it got too much sand in it. Lord knows we both know we don't need anymore sand here in Florida!)

My base Fertilizer:
2 parts blood meal
1 part fish meal
2 parts bonemeal
4 parts rock phosphate
6 parts greensand.
1/2 part kelp meal

Now how much of this base fertilizer you are going to use is based on the size of your container. I mix in a lot. For example in a container that is 42" X 22" X 30" I add 6 quarts. (My containers have a 9-10 gal reservoir include within these measurements.) I mix this fertilizer though out the whole container. Top to bottom--side to side. Remember unlike synthetic fertilizers most organic fertilizers are nonburning. This mixture will not burn your plants. One time I turn around wrong (LOL) and added a second 6 quarts. The plants did just fine in that double mixture.

As for micronutrients I use seaweed extract. One ounce per gal. of water applied to bush. Next once per week I add this seaweed mixture to my soil. Now evertime I water I add 1/2 ounce fish extract per gal of water applied to soil.

At first bloom I move up the fish extract to 1 full ounce per gal. of water applied to the soil. Again, my containers have water reservoir of 9-10 gal. of water.

Try this next time. Go purchase just one Earthbox. Compair how things grow in it with your clay pots. (I make my own.)

Link to Earthbox: http://www.earthbox.com

Below is a picture of a banana plant that just 6 weeks ago was maybe 11 inches tall. The system I've learned to use here in Florida works if you are into container gardening.

If you would like to make your own Growth Containers I can get you started in that area.
Olds



This message was edited Nov 9, 2003 10:08 PM

Just in case you have never seen a Growth Container there are many styles. The one below is the type I started out with 14 years ago. I have made some changes. However, this will give you a base idea.

The wick for the water is your potting soil. This works like a charm!
Old

This message was edited Nov 9, 2003 10:06 PM

Ok, let's see here:
DoW_Oldman:
I was not growing thru the summer heat - I had a spring garden and fall garden. These plants were started in pots when it was hot, but when out in the garden the temps have been in the 80's during the day and 70's or lower (down into the 50's for a while) at night. In fact, I was afraid it was getting too cold. It is about 10+ degrees cooler in Brooksville than in St. Pete this time of year - esp. night temps. I don't think I could start garden in Dec even in pots, as last year we had a frost in APRIL here.

Fertilizer - a generic 10-10-10 tilled into the soil about 3 weeks before planting them out. At first I thought this might be the problem - too much fertilizer, but I think that should have killed them all right away, and although many died quickly, about half survived another 2 weeks and then half of those another 2 weeks, etc. Since they died, I have planted squash and greens in that area and they seem to be doing fine (actually seem to be in need of fertilizer).

I started them all from seeds - two different types of seeds purchased from different places.

I looked for nematodes on the roots, the roots looked fine. Soil is basically sand. The ONLY thing wrong with the plant (other than them being dead) is a hollow in the stem at about ground level and up maybe 2 -3 inches at most. I have never found anything in the hollow - like a worm or anything. The leaves start wilting - a few to start - they may even perk back up at night and wilt again the next day . .. then more will wilt, then they won't perk back up at all , then more will wilt generally from the bottom of the plant up. They stay green, just wilted . I haven't tracked how long it takes to kill the whole plant, my guess would be, for the large plants I have left, about 2 weeks. When they were small, they were just dropping like flies - a few days and gone. I tried removing the wilted leaves/stems, but that didn't help, either.

I planted in new ground - I did not have my tomatoes in this ground in the spring (or anything else for that matter, other than grass). I can take a pic of them tomorrow and post, if that might help.

I guess my biggest concern is for next year - I have pretty much given up on getting any ripe tomatoes this year. Is there anything I should do to prevent this in the future . . . of course, when you don't know what's causing it, I don't know what to prevent.

Thanks for everything!!

~~~~ Dazed and confused ~~~~~

They stay green, just wilted

To me that's the most important observation.

And thanks for answering the questions I asked.

Wilting with no change in foliage color can indicate:

1.Too much water, but then the foliage usually turns yellow and dies. And you're growing in sand which drains well so I wouldn't think this is the problem/

2.Not enough water. Without much organic material in the soil such soil can dry out fast, but I'm sure you were on top of that situation.

3.Critters like mice, voles, etc.,burrowing around the roots and chewing on them but you say the roots looked fine.

4. Bacterial Wilt. And you spoke of a hollow near the base of the stem. Does that area have a brownish discoloration? That also goes along with Bacterial Wilt. Try this. Cut a piece of stem from an affected plant that still has the wilted green foliage and ASAP hold it in a glass of water and look for a milky viscous gray streaming into the water from the cut stem.

Since you don't speak of any worms and you don't speak of any distorted foliage, lets see if the Bacterial Wilt test with a cut stem in water shows anythng.

Bacterial Canker is another possibility.

Carolyn

Carolyn

The next time something bites me I cannot figure out I want your PHONE NUMBER!!!

Will you you take Pineapple pups in payment? LOL!!

Now don't tell you are not a Pro again! And I will not tell you I'm NOT an online gamer! You are just too sweet with the information! I'm impressed!!!!!!!!!
Olds

This message was edited Nov 10, 2003 4:35 PM

DoW
I clicked in on your hyperlink on EARTHBOX.,that plus your own boxes and the results shown have convinced me! I am ordering right now..

Tplant

Earthboxs are great. After you get into them you might just want to make your own.
Olds

A week ago,I purchased three "Bonnie" tomatoe seedlings as a controlled experiment. One was planted away from the others in a new container and new potting soil. It is doing great. The other two were left in their original containers and placed near the other sickly plants that I have now destroyed. The result is that they are now showing the same sickly signs of the others. It looks like a virus to me? Am I right to destroy everything? Your advice PLEASE?
DoW: Is builders sand the same sand they sell at Wal-Mart which is used in childrens sandboxes?



This message was edited Nov 12, 2003 2:55 PM

Ya you can use childrens sand...np there

Yes take all that was in those containers to the other side of the house and use it for the roses.....BLEACH your containers @ 100 parts per millon. (12.75 ounces housewhole bleach per gal. of water. Take an empty gal. container..add bleach...fill the rest with water. Do not exceed this mixture as the more bleach you add the less it will kill!)
Olds

EDIT Allow the bleach water at least 15 minutes contact time...make sure it stays wet...even if you have to continue to spray on more beach water<----very important! 15 minutes is the less amount of time. 20 is a sure kill!

This message was edited Nov 12, 2003 6:35 PM

Remember 15 minute is the least time. 20 minutes gets you a for sure kill.
Olds

The result is that they are now showing the same sickly signs of the others. It looks like a virus to me? Am I right to destroy everything? Your advice PLEASE?


I went back up to your first post and read thru it again and don't see the magic words that would indicatre to me a virus infection.

But clearly if whatever it is is being transmitted just by close contact and isn 't associated with the soil, then it looks like a possible virus infection.

And as long as you have the vectors, which for most of the FL virus diseases are whiteflies, you're still going to have a problem after sterilizing everything.

At this point I think the best thing to do is to call your local Coop Ext Office and find out which specific viruses are known to be in your own area.

And then discuss with them possible means of insect control. It isn't easy and doesn't work very well, but they should be up on this and can give you the latest information.

Carolyn

Carolyn - -

re: >


Sorry I haven't replied!!!

Regarding the above, where to I cut the stem - at the bottom where it is brown or higher up where still green . . .??

If that is the problem, is there anything do to for it and, if not, anything to do to the soil before I plant again next spring?

As an experiment, I planted two new plants (about 1' tall) in the same area and they began wilting within 3 days and were completely dead within 7 days . . . you had asked me before how long it took for them to go . . . of course, I still have some that are large and doing ok, but I doubt for long, as they all seem to be getting it, one by one.

I can assure you it's not too much or too little water, we definately checked that right away.

I did take pictures, I'll try to get them up-loaded soon!

thanks!!

Here is a close up picture of the stem of one of the large tomatoes that wilted and died showing the hallow in it. The hallow on this one went quite high, we followed it up and could not find any worm or other critter in there. . .

Here is a picture of one of the small tomatoes I planted to see if whatever it was would affect them (thinking that if it was too much fertilizer, by this time, that problem would be resolved - but that is not the problem). This is the first stages of the wilting process - one branch will wilt, then another, etc.

Here is a picture of one of the large tomato plants that has gotten to about 3' high with lots of tomatoes on it that is dying now - it was one of the original 60 plants that survived long enough to get this big, but now is dying.

The leaves that started wilting first are turning brown now, those on the top are green and wilted.

onalee

Can you post a picture of the roots?

Now I'm not Carolyn, but the 1st picture and 3rd picture almost look like Verticillium wilt. The 2nd picture reminds me of Southern bacterial wilt.

Next, I see a lot of non-composted oak leaves. the optimum soil pH for tomato is 6.0 to 7.0. I wonder if your pH is not also too low. I'm not say this causing the current problem in and by itself. However, if pH is too low it would add stress to the plant.

Sorry I cannot be of any more help.
Olds

This message was edited Nov 15, 2003 10:22 PM

I have a couple of plants to pull up in the next day or two, I'll get a picture of the roots and post.

thanks!!

As an experiment, I planted two new plants (about 1' tall) in the same area and they began wilting within 3 days and were completely dead within 7 days . . . you had asked me before how long it took for them to go . . . of course, I still have some that are large and doing ok, but I doubt for long, as they all seem to be getting it, one by one.


If new one foot plants start wilting within three days and are dead by seven, then we're not dealing with any infectious disease either bacterial, fungal, viral or nematodal. There simply wasn't enough time for the plants to become infected and show symptoms.

Were these purchased plants? You said you raised the others from seed.

So I'm tending to think that there is something really wrong with your soil or what's been put into it.

Rather than speculate on what might be wrong, b/c there are many possibilities, I do think you should have the soil tested.

What's troubling to me is that you report new -plants wilting and dead by 7 days and yet many of your earlier plants survived much longer.

So do we have a combo of a soil problem plus a disease problem for others? Possibly.

It's very difficult to tell the difference between Fusarium and Verticillium most of the time. But in both cases, wilting leads to foliage turning yellow, then brown, before dying, and you've told me that the foliage stays green and then dies with no change in foliage color.

So at this point I think you should consult with your local Coop Ext b/c clearly I can't do a good job of diagnosis from afar and I don't know what the soil problem might be.

Carolyn

Carolyn -

The new plants I put in were new ones that I had started again from seed . .. . It just seems odd that some of the plants continued to live and thirve for a while, then die and some are still living and producing tomatoes - all in the same area. These are planted only a few feet away from where I planted about 60 tomato plants last spring which did wonderfully!! AND on one row where all the tomatoes died I have replanted mustard and squash and they are doing fine.

I understand how hard it is to diagnose something long distance, but I had called the local co-op and they really had no idea and no inclination to help me at all. That is why I turned here, just in case someone had some ideas for me, as no one local, so far, has had any.

What should I get the soil tested FOR?

Also - about putting the stem in water and seeing the gray stuff - - what part of the stem should I do this with - the bottom where the hallow is?

DoW_Oldman:

I got picts of the roots and will post them.

Thank you all for all your help - - - I was just hoping someone had run across this before and could give me a direction to go .. . . I can get the soil tested, but I don't think that is the problem, either, as I said, I have other plants growing in it with no problems at all.

thank you all for everything!!

Onalee

Here is a picture of the roots of one of the small plants that just died.

Ummm roots look ok to me.

Ok even with the time line I still think you have a bacterial problem of some sorts. Do you have another area where you can grow tomatoes where they have not been grown in the past 3 years? If so plant some there.

I would not try to grow any nightshade family for he next three years in the area you are currently having problems.

Next, while it has no baring on this problem I would alway compost out my oak leaves before I used them...or allow them around my tomaotes.

Really sorry I cannot be of any more help.
Olds.

I do understand that this is a confused situation.

But I still maintain that a one foot plant that you've raised from seed that is perfectly fine until placed in the ground and then starts to wilt and die within 3 days and is dead by 7 days cannot have died from an infectious disease.

There simply isn't time for any pathogen to multiply to a concentration sufficient to kill a plant. I'm a retired Microbiologist and so do understand rates of multiplication as related to symptoms.

How about your seed source? Meaning, were all your seeds for all varieties from the same source? Last year and this year both.

There has to be something going on to account for the huge variability you see in plant performance in the ground but not as seedlings before being put in the ground.

What might you have put into the planting holes? Wasw it the same for all plants?

To do the wee test I suggested you'd cut a stem where there was active wilting going on.

Carolyn

Last spring's seeds were better boy bush hybrid purchased at Walmart - I think it had Walmart brand on them. We really liked those plants but for the fall I couldn't find them anywhere so I ordered them directly from burpee - I also bought some big boy from Walmart and planted both types in the fall - -- so I had two different kinds of seeds from two different sources for the fall. The plants in the spring were beautiful and produced TONS of tomatoes - the couple I have left now are producing lots of large, nice tomatoes - - - how could some plants survive and thrive while all around them are dying? These plants are only a couple of feet away from where I had the spring tomatoes that did great!

I didn't put anything into the holes with the plants except water.

I'll try the bacterial test you suggested tomorrow and let you know if I see anything.

thank you all for your help!!!

Onalee

Can I ask about the oak leaves . . .we used them in the spring as mulch to help keep moisture in and keep dirt from splattering on the leaves - they worked great! You keep saying not to put 'uncomposted' oak leaves on the beds . . . could you tell me why? Do they carry disease or something that could affect the tomatoes?

thanks!
Onalee

I'm trying hard to put this all together and still can't. LOL

It sounds to me like you didn't start from seeds yourself.

In the Spring you bought plants from Walmart, the Better Bush variety ( not Better Boy Bush for that doesn't exist), and those plants no doubt came from Bonnie Plant Farm which distributes wholesale in the south to the marts, etc.

For the Fall you bought plants of Better Bush from Burpee and also plants of Big Boy from Walmart.

Better Bush is VFN and Big Boy isn't.

YOu haven't said that one variety has lasted longer than the other in your garden.

And you've said that the plants don't turn yellow when wilting, just green, and then die.

It really is important to note if the foliage wilts and then turns yellow and then brown before it dies, as opposed to just green and then dies b/c the Better Bush plants would be tolerant to VFN while the Big Boy plants wouldn't be.

I've been thinking a bacterial systemic disease b/c you told me the foliage doesn't turn yellow then brown.

Since you had no problems with Better Bush in the Spring and you still have some plants going, I guess, that speaks against VF or N being the culprit b/c NO plant with VFN tolerance is RESISTANT to VFN, they just take longe3r to die.

And you just shared with us that whatever variety you planted this Fall, quite recently, showed symptoms within 3 days and was dead by seven.

V, F and N are diseases that develop towrds the middle to end of the season when a plant s mature, b/c, as I've said, there's no way those pathogens can multiply fast enough to cause symptoms that quickly. Besides, your Better Bush ones did just fine in the Spring in the same exact area.

Please look and see if there is a correlation between early death and the two varieteis you planted.

And please let me know if, as you stated before, the foliage NEVER turns yellow to brown before death, instead of the green when dead as you stated before.

If your garden soil didn't have V, F or N in the Spring, the only way it could get there is from pre-infected plants that you bought. Bonnie Farms has an excellent reputation, so I'm wondering about that as well.

Uncomposted oak leaves don't have any diseases but oak leaves don't rot quickly and for that reason are not the best of mulch material. Some say they are acidic, such as pine needles, but that acidity gets less as the rot and they end up being alkaline. Besides, again, you used them in the Spring with no effect on your toamto plants.They really should be composted before being used. They are heavy and wet and don't allow for good oxygen penetration but again, you used them in the Spring with no proble3ms, apparently.

So please go out and tell me which varieties die first and which last longer and see if there is a correlation.

Carolyn

Carolyn - -

In the Spring you bought plants from Walmart, the Better Bush variety ( not Better Boy Bush for that doesn't exist), and those plants no doubt came from Bonnie Plant Farm which distributes wholesale in the south to the marts, etc.


SORRY - I wasn't clear - I bought SEEDS in the spring from Walmart - better boy bush. I've started all my tomatoes from seeds - spring and fall. I just couldn't find the seeds again in the fall for the better boy and had to order them from burpee directly.

As far as which dies fastest, I would say the better boy did, but is was a close race . . .

As far as the leaves turning brown, what happens is some start to wilt, then more and more until all are green and wilted. At that point, I have pulled the plants up to get them out of the area. On the older plants that are dying, the first leaves to wilt do eventually turn brown because it takes longer for the plant to die and I'm trying to get the tomatoes off them, so I leave them there until it is clear that I'm not gonna get anything more out of the plant, then I pull it up. AT that point, the first leaves that wilted are brown, but the newest leaves to be wilting would still be green. They stay green and wilted quite a while before they actually turn brown - I would guess a week or more.

thanks,
Onalee