Saving Tomato Seeds?

This is my first year growing tomatoes -- I would like to save seeds. How should I got about doing this?

Seed saving really starts with how you plant the plants and what you've done to possibly prevent cross pollinations.

Here's a post I post from time to time on saving tomato seeds; hope it's helpful. Right now I have about 50 pint containers with fermenting seeds going with many more varieties to go.Sigh

While the following is long, it's mainly because I write like I talk, which means it's wordy. LOL

In addition, I don't think I discussed in detail geographic isolation distances if that's what you're using to seperate varieties, nor did I discuss bagging blossoms as a way to prevent X pollination. But those isolation distances and bagging are concerns one has to address before harvesting frujits for fermentation.

Subj: Seed Saving
Date: 01/27/2002 1:07:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Cmale
To: Cmale

Below is a post I wrote about four years ago. And I'm glad I found it because
I just wasn't up to doing it from scratch.LOL

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Seed can be saved from any tomato you're growing, but if it's an F1 hybrid
the seed will not come true when planted the next year. So most folks save
seed only from open-pollinated strains, where, if no cross-pollination or
spontaneous mutations have taken place, the saved and sown seed does come
true when planted the next year.

You can just take the seed, try to wash it well and dry it on a plate or
towel, but that's not the best way to do it. All seed has the potential to
carry along with it certain pathogens, or bacteria and fungi and viruses
which can cause disease. All seed companies ferment their seed to lower the
amount of pathogens,and fermentation is easily done at home. All seed
companies also treat the fermented seed with a triphospahte solution to get
rid of
tobacco mosic virus (TMV), but the solution is very caustic and TMV is NOT a
common tomato pathogen outside of a greenhouse setting. Your fermented seeds
will be squeaky clean and fuzzy, just like purchased ones.

There is a right way and a wrong way to select fruit for seed saving. Doing
it the right way you'd have at least 6 plants of one variety and you'd select
firm, ripe fruit, if they're growing in a row, from the inner four plants, to
lessen the chances of insect cross pollination of your selected fruit. You'd
take fruit from all four plants and process it. Since every single plant is
slightly different from the other plants of it's variety , this is
the way to maintain what is called genetic diversity within the variety. But
most folks don't have 6 plants. So. I'll tell you how to save seed the wrong
way. LOL Select the best specimens you can, and never process just one or two
fruit because you can't tell by just looking at the fruit whether or not an
individual fruit has been cross-pollinated. If I'm processing White Queen I
might have 10 white tomatoes in front of me. I'd like to think that
all 10 were self-pollinated and the seed is pure. But I don't know that.
Fruit that are cross-pollinated are identical to non-cross-pollinated fruit,
so I must be sure to process enough fruit to maintain the variety.If you have
only one plant of a variety, so be it. And also remember that if you are
saving seed from varieties staked or caged next to each other your chances of
cross-pollinated fruit are higher because of the closer physical proximity.

There are many variations as to how to do the fermentation. I'll tell you how
I do it, and then mention a few of those variations. I get one lb clear deli
containers at the store. Put tape on the container and label with the variety
name. Squeeze enough pulp and seeds into the container so it's at least half
full. If it's a Roma or paste type you usually don't have much juice and
you'll have to add a tad of water. Place the containers out of the sun
and where critters won't tip over the containers and where the smell and
accumulated fruit flies won't drive you crazy. After 3-5 days you'll see a
white mat of fungus develop over the top of the contents and if you look at
the bottom of the gook you'll see little bubbles indicating the fermentation
process is occurring. DO NOT STIR the mixture. Yes, I know, some folks say to
stir it. They seem to forget that fermentation is a process which takes
place in the absence of air (is anaerobic) and stirring introduces air.

Now what's happening in that container is that the acidic conditions are
killing the viruses and the fungi and the mold is making antibiotics which
kill the bacteria. Also, the gel capsules around the seeds are being
destroyed and that's good because they have a germination inhibitor in them.
So, it takes about 5 days for me before I can process the seed, longer or
shorter depending primarily on the temperature. By trial and error you'll
learn when
the seed is ready to be processed. If you do it too soon the gel capsules are
still sticky around the seeds and if you do it too late the seeds turn brown,
although they still are viable.

So now you have your containers of stinking goop with fruit flies circling
low. I sit down on the front porch steps. Between my legs I have a big bucket
and in my left hand (I'm right-handed) I have a hose with a pistol type
nozzle. I spritz some water into the container and swirl the contents. The
good seeds will fall to the bottom and the immature seeds will float. I
carefully pour off some of the goop. Usually the fungal mat goes in the first
pour
off. Yes, you'll lose some seeds that have stuck to it;not to worry. I
continue this spritzing with water, swirling and pouring off until the water
is perfectly clear and the seeds are at the bottom. Now I've prelabeled paper
plates with the variety name. Don't use coated plates, just real paper
because the coated ones won't absorb the water. Carefully drain off as much
water as you can and dump out the seeds on the plate, Spread the seeds around
with your finger so you have a single layer. If you don't do this you can
get germination of the wet seeds on the plate. DO NOT DO THIS STEP OF DUMPING
OUT THE SEEDS IF THE WIND IS BLOWING OR OFF GO THE PLATES INTO THE WILD BLUE
YONDER.Place the plates inside, where the seeds can dry. I festoon all the
upstairs bedrooms at mom's place with the paper plates. When the seeds are
thoroughly dry (takes about one week for me but depends on temps and
humidity) I put them into little capped plastic vials that I "borrow" from
work.
LOL Any small airtight container is fine. Some good ones are sold at Southern
Exposure Seed Exchange. Now if I were going to be doing this the absolute
right way I would add silica gel to the seeds and dry them down to a moisture
content of about 8%. I don't do that. And if I were going to be doing this
the right way I'd store the seeds in the freezer or the fridge, but I can't
because I have over 600 bottles of labelled seed. So they stay in my
apartment where the temps in the summer can get up over 90 and the seed
viability on most of my 5 year old seed is in excess of 80% and that's just
fine with me.

Now you can scale down the containers to use large Dixie Cups. And you can
pour the gook into a sieve and try to separate the seeds that way. That has
NEVER worked well for me. The basic thing is to get the fermentation of those
seeds done.

I've probably forgotten a bit here and there, but I think the main gist of
the process I've described well enough. Sure it's a stinky messy procedure,
but when you're done and see those beautiful fuzzy clean seeds it really
gives you a sense of accomplisment.

Ah, yes, i forgot to say please cut your fingernails before you do this.
Seeds can get caught under your nails and then you can transfer seed from
batch to batch. And I mean here, primarily when you are squeezing the pulp
and seeds into the containers, but also when you're going from variety to
variety with the fermentation containers. AND RINSE YOUR HANDS WELL AND CHECK
UNDER YOUR FINGERNAILS FOR SEEDS as you go from variety to variety.

Carolyn

And I'd like to add to that seedsaving post I just posted.

First, most of you aren't going to be saving seeds in the amounts
that I would, so if you don't want to use the one pound clear deli
containers, use something smaller, but still a CLEAR container. Clear
containers are useful for monitoring the fermentation process becasue
you can see the bubbles along the sides of the clear container and
you can see how well the gel capsule material is being destroyed.

Seeds last a long time so there's really no reason why you shouldn't
do the fermentation in a one pound clear deli container (takes maybe
2-3 big beefsteaks or many more smaller ones and tons of cherry
types,LOL. But why not use those clear 8 oz beverage glasses if you
wish. Using something shallow is not good because of evaporation.

And keep an eye on the fermentation becasue sometimes the liquid
evaporates before the fungal mat is formed and you have to add some
water to reconstitute it if it dries down too much.

As I said in my post, I seldom add water to the fermentation mix; the
juice of the tomatoes alone is just fine. If juice is scanty then add
just a bit of water.

Oh, and if you're doing lots and lots of fermetations you can make
the process go faster by saving the first poured off liquid from a
fermentation and add it to newly squeezed containers where it will
then speed up the fermentation. But be very sure there are NO SEEDS
in thatliquid. Kind of like using starter for sourdough bread or same
for yogurt.

Fermentation does NOT remove all pathogens from the seed. It lowers
the amount found on the surface but obviously cannot remove any
pathogens in the endosperm (inside) of the seed. But the most
commonly transferred pathogen is Fusarium and it does a great job at
lowering the levels of that pathogen.

If you have any questions,please just ask.

carolyn - saw your reply to saving seeds. and i thought all i had to do is take a few seeds from the tomato plants, dry them on a paper towel and then put them in a jar in a cool dry place. looks like too much work for me. think ill just go on and buy the seeds like i always do, but thanks for the info. cant believe how much some of you people know about gardening. have a nice day.

Herbie,it's no big deal to do this. Some of us do it on a grand scale,because of how many varieties that we are working with.

Just a few types of tomatoes makes this a lot easier to do. Why don't you pick one and see how it works? This way you can understand the whole process...and if you aren't crazy about how things are going,just toss the whole mess and plan on purchasing seeds.

Carolyn has given wonderful,detailed instructions, and if you try with something that you like to grow,you'll be so proud of yourself.

Believe me,it isn't so bad,and the process is fascinating.

carolyn/melody - ok you ytalked me into it. i start with a few tomato and eggplants. will let you know what happens next year.

Herbie, Carolyn has given the details for reference....

Here is the abridged version.

1. Squeeze tomato seeds/juice into a plastic cup

2. Put the cup somewhere it won't be bothered, and where the smell won't bother you.

3. Wait until there is a mat of mold on top (2-5 days)

4. Throw away the mat and rinse out the seeds

5. Let them dry on a paper towel or better yet, on a paper plate

6. After they are completely dry, put them in an envelope or into a jar.

7. Plant them next spring.

Dave, Do you think this thread should be moved to the FAQ forum so it can be archived? Tons of great info here. I've printed it out for my own use.

phred - that sounds more my speed. will definitely do it. thanks again.

Herbie,

I really can do a 1,2,3 type of post but for those who are new to seed saving I like to explain the whys and wherefores about the process for those who might want to know a bit more about seedborne diseases, why fermentation of seeds is desirable, and how fermetation works to help rid the seeds of pathogens and gets rid of the germination inhibitor, etc..

Retired teachers still see themselves as teaching I guess. (smile)

I apologize if my post made the process appear to be more complicated than it really is.

Carolyn, whose seed starting post is similarly long as are her posts about foliage diseases, systemic diseases, blossom end rot, dehybridization and fruit rots and spots. Posting about these subjects since 1990 led me many years ago to try and share what I know in specific posts to hopefully benefit those who are new to tomato growing and want to learn as much as they can.

Carolyn -- thanks for all the great information, very helpful.

Phred, thanks for the abridged version, that also was very helpful and makes the whole process seem less overwhelming. :)

carolyn - your post was just the way it should be. its best to explain everything about the subject. sometimes when i give reciepes on the forum it seems like i go on typing for a long time. but you have to tell exactly what has to be done to get the finished product that way it should be. ill keep asking and you keep answering. thanks

phred - your version is great. thanks for making it easier.

Herbie, et als,

Did you ever cook a recipe that seemed awfully complicated when you read it, but which really turns out to be simple?

It's the same thing with saving tomato seed. The process _sounds_ complicated. But it's really very simple. And there really isn't much work involved, as the fermentation takes care of itself.

Again, using a kitchen analogy, when you bake, say, a cake, it's in the oven for an hour or so. But _you_ aren't doing any work, the oven is. Same with saving tomato seed.

The work part of saving tomato seed is 1. removing the seed from the fruit; and 2. washing and drying it. If you saved a couple of good fruit from each of four plants, as Carolyn suggests, your total time investment in seed saving is about ten minutes.

What Carolyn has done (thank you again, Carolyn) is gone deeply into the process so you understand what is happening as well as what to do. But, if you read her post carefully, you'll see that the actual work level involved is practically zero.

Something she has said in the past, too, that I agree with: There is little sense in saving seed from commonly available varieties. Instead, put your effort into those that are rare or harder to find. Thus, I don't bother saving seed for Amish Paste, because I can always get it if I want some. But there are only two people I know of besides myself growing Brand's Ol' German, so I save seed every time I grow it.

brook - i guess your right. will try for the less common tomatoes next time. have a nice day. and thanks.

I'm a retired teacher too.

Non-majors.

Hello:
Would any of you like some Great Jersey tomatoe seeds?
Our tomatoes are so good. I'm sending some to Fla.

Have a great friend that I met through Dave's.
She use to live in Jersey and is drooling for our famous produce.
It's nice knowing you can make someone happy by just sending a "Tomatoe"
Sandy
P.S. Be happy you all!

What a GREAT Thread!! I needed this info too!

Good info, thank you. Question about the fermentation process, can I cover the container with a lid? I have a glass container with a fitting lid that would be perfect for this.

Sue,

You can cover it with a lid if you wish, but I prefer to leave my one pint fermentation containers open to the outside air so that the maximum number of fungal spores and bacteria fall in to form the mat that covers the pulp and seeds below.

Below the formed mat the process is anaerobic, as it should be, so there's really no necessity to put a lid on.

But please remember that fermentations stink. LOL So leave open containers outside, says I who just moved the last 6 of mine inside to the back room, but the night temps are too cold to leave them outside.

Carolyn

Hmmm, ok - Thanks Carolyn! I was thinkin' I could avoid the smell and little flies with the lid. I have quite a few seeds too and very limited space in my kitchen. Well, 5 days isn't that long, right? lol!

Sue, I've covered mine with paper towels (held fast with a rubber band) and it keeps those flies/knats way down to a minimum.

A very good solution, thanks Horseshoe!

Shucks folk, you are making it all so complicated!:>))

I just came back from the UK's fabled HDRA (the UK equivalent of Seed Sharers) and they process their tomato seed simply in a solution of washing soda. (I think 10% dilution.)

That way, the seed doesn't need to ferment for 3-5 days but works overnight and they can dry it within 48 hours.

Truly, I have no experience of this. Carolyn, et alia, what do you think? Is this an easier way?

BTW: Shoe, like you I always put baggies on my fermenting seed pots. When the baggies fill up with fermentation gas and the pots float around the ceiling, I know the seed's ready to dry.

This message was edited Oct 17, 2003 2:03 PM

John,

I don't know what washing soda is, that you refer to.

I do know about processing seeds with TSP ( trisodium phosphate) and I don't recommend it as a general practice since it's caustic, and one never knows if kids and/or pets are part of the scene where seeds are being processed.

Fermentation is natural and non-harmful to all, and effective in lessening the seedborne pathogens.

Commercial companies still treat with TSP b/c it's known to eliminate TMV ( tobacco mosaic virus) very well.

That's a plus if one is a large greenhouse commercial grower which is about the only place that TMV is an occasional problem these days, but not for the home grower.

Carolyn

Carolyn, washing soda is plain sodium carbonate. It seems fairly non-toxic. Might it speed the fermentation process, do you think?