Blossom Set

This is just for info- anyone who has has trouble with blossom drop on their tomatoes, they sell stuff called "Blossom Set" that's supposed to keep them from dropping. Someone told my DH last year that all it is is sugar water, so we mixed up some sugar water in a spray bottle and sprayed all out tomatoe blossoms (all 60 plants of them). I don't think we lost one blossom! Don't know why it works, but it sure seems to!

bt,

Blossom Set is indoleacetic acid, a plant hormone.

It was devised to be used in areas where early Spring temps are not compatible with normal pollination. And it works well under those conditions.

It has absolutely no effect on helping with pollination when temps are appropriate for that process. Prolonged high day temps over about 95 and night temps above 70 will not allow for normal pollination and Blossom Set has no effect on facilitating pollination at those temps.

Indoleacetic acid allows for the bypassing of normal pollination and thus there is no fertilization of ovules in the tomato ovary and thus no seeds, or a few remnents of them in fruits. So seed savers should be NOT be using it, even for early fruits.

The process of setting fruit in the absence of normal pollenization and fertilization is called parthenocarpy.

Dr. James Baggett at OSU has developed a series of tomato varieties for the PNW, where cool temps prevail, that are naturally parthenocarpic.

Parthencarpic fruits are not just seedless but can be mushy as well as being malformed, because of the unnatural process of parthenocarpy.

Sugar water has no effect on pollination, so if you got what you call an effect I'll bet you several bucks that temperatures moderated to the point where that process was possible.(smile)

Carolyn

The sugar water, while no relation to Blossom-Set, provides a food source and attracts bumblebees, which then visit the tomato flowers and aid pollination. So,as you say, btailoring, it works!

John, not to be totally contrary here, but it's sweat bees and mason bees that are the primary bees that work tomato blossoms for the pollen as a protein source, not bumblebees.

But the MAIN point is that self pollination occurs over 95% of time (figures vary but are always very high) so the contribution by those bees could only be very minimal because those that might be attracted to blossoms for sugar water would find the blossoms already self pollinated.

I still think that temps moderated and allowed for pollination which is usually the case. It's kind of like the story where folks insist that added Ca++ to the soil prevents BER becasue they added it and the BER stopped when in fact the plants got larger, could better handle all the stresses that can induce BER and thus BER did go away, but not because of added Ca++.

Besides, it's interesting to think about what sticky sugar water does to the surface of the stigma and the adherence or non adherence of the pollen to the anthers on a short term basis. Just hypothesizing here.

Carolyn

Indoleacetic acid allows for the bypassing of normal pollination and thus there is no fertilization of ovules in the tomato ovary and thus no seeds...

Hmm..so indoleacetic acid acts as a replacement for pollen? Pollen is not necessary for fruit/seed production?

Hmm..so indoleacetic acid acts as a replacement for pollen? Pollen is not necessary for fruit/seed production?

Bingo!!!

It's all in the hormones. LOL IAA forces an abnormal fruit devlopment in ways too mysterious to discuss publically( smile) except it's totally clear that the involvement of pollen is not necessary at all. Which means I don't know the exact mechanism involved and I don't even know if a molecular mechansim is known, just the end result.

And it's interesting that naturally parthenocarpic selections do exist. There are many genes involved; almost any gene having to do with the synthesis of the corolla structures such as the corolla itself, the anthers and the pollen. A mutation in any of those genes leads to a parthenocarpic result.

Lots of work has been done on parthenocarpy because of its tremendous usefulness in production of hybrid seed, as I mentioned above.

Carolyn, now going to stuff more seeds

The method by which the bumblebees aid pollination is this: their activity causes vibration, which assists pollen onto the stigma; the sugar water having attracted the bumblebees in the first place.

Hi All,

Sure wish I understood everything that was said in this thread and even if I did it looks like everyone has their own opinion. I have used what I think is Blossom Set only because I understood it helped prevent blossom end rot. Would like to hear some comments about blossom end rot. I will use my big dictionary to try to understand some of the answers. LOL Oh yea, if I was to try a sugar and water mixture, what proportions?

Now I am going to go and start my own thread asking about sun scald and pruning.

Sparks

Carolyn, so the varieties marketed as heat-tolerant are parthenocarpic? As well as the ones that are cool-tolerant?

I have read some about this phenomenon; obviously not enough! Any other plants that display this genetic anomaly?

About the sugar-water spray: I have read of experiments that spraying it will attract lots of ladybugs to help eliminate aphids and other pests. It works to a limited degree for me, but usually I just get lots of ants.

Always ready for new experimentation...

Sparks, I don't think the Blossom Set would help BER too much...time and conditions are what will help that. The sugar and water mix will do as Lupine said...attract the ants. The reason the ants are attracted (most likely) is because the see a good place to herd their aphids...and of course, where there is a meal then the lady bugs will appear! (They love aphids! Especially if they are in their larval stage.)

Thanks to both Lupinelove and Shoe but neither one of you answered my question of what proportions of sugar to water.

Sparks

I wouldn't recommend it, Sparks. But if you wanna try it, one part sugar to 3-4 parts water. I'm very dubious about it benefitting the plants, but am open to it. Let us know how it goes.

Shoe, I haven't made a final decesion as yet about using the sugar and water.

Sparks

It might be interesting to research 'bees' and see what attracts them to their target...can they smell? is it the color or shape of the flower? are they like butterflys that can "taste" with their feet? etc....

John, any ideas on this? (I bet you already know, don't you!)

'Shoe, it is Bumblebees that are the most important pollinators of tomatoes, as their 'buzzing' technique of pollen gathering will cause the pollen to drop onto the stigma, thus better fertilizing the flower. They can smell, and are attracted by both color and shape, particularly trumpet-shaped blooms.

I remember reading some yrs back that it was their wing-flapping that contributed to pollinating. I don't even think they need to light on the flower to do it...they just buzz by while looking. Nature's creatures, a study of a life-time right there. Pretty cool, eh?

I'm glad I'm not a butterfly, tasting with my feet...
My shoe-less toes, my heels, my soles
Sampling all they meet!
They'd send a dire message
And much to my chagrin...
It may not be in such good taste
To cut thru the chicken pen!

Carolyn

Please forgive this idiot remark (you've always forgiven my idiot remarks, haven't you?). But... I had a problem last year with my tomatoes not setting fruit in my greenhouse. So I talked with a UK Tomato Guru. And he said...

Thou will not get tomatoes under glass to set fruit if, when the flowers are open, the temperature remains above 105% for four consecutive hours. It fries the pollen.

That's why my early tomatoes in my conservatory are going nowhere, I suspect. The temperature leaps between 55oF-120oF every day, even with every window open.

But the plants are mighty decorative!

(Only eccentrics grow tomatoes, for their fruits, don't we?)

I am sure my humble contribution is totally irrelevant to this erudite thread, but please forgive me...

This message was edited Tuesday, Apr 15th 2:24 PM

I ain't Carolyn, but I know temps of that extreme would certainly fry near 'bout anything. I give up on my ghouse during the summer months, no way to keep it cool without going to great expense.

I'm wondering if parthenocarpic maters react to temp extremes. Maybe that is why some tomatoes are more adapted (and called) greenhouse crops?

I'm never going to remember who said what and I'm too darn tired to make notes. Sorry.(smile)

Sparks, Blossom Set has nothing to do with BER. Perhaps you're thinking of Stop Rot, which is a spray solution of Ca++ to be used as a preventative for BER. But even Stop Rot doesn't work because Ca++ can't get across the fruit epidermis and studies have shown that spraying the foliage with Ca++ doesn't get enough to the blossom end of the fruits to make a difference. lack of Ca++ at the blossom end of the fruits ends up causing rotting of toamto tissue.

BER is brought on by many inducers such as too much N, uneven delivery of water, too hot, too cold, etc. In other words anything that causes stress does not allow Ca++ to get to the bottom of the fruits. Addition of Ca++ to the soil cannot prevent BER, as has been shown by many studies, for the tissues of plants with BER have Ca++ in the tissues.

I can't give you a sugar water recipe either. Tomato blossoms have no nectar. Bees harvest the pollen for a protein food souirce.


Lupine, No, heat tolerant varieties aren't parthenocarpic.So called heat tolerant varieties probably have pollen that is more heat stable and/or more tolerant of pollen clumping in humidd hot areas.

John,

I don't know about the four hour dealie, but sustained temps of over 90-95 will result in sterile pollen. I really haven't found anything anywhere that tells me what the time period of high sustained temps has to be. And as I jsut said above, I know there are varieties that have pollen with varying properties re heat denaturation and clumping. No,I don't know of any list. LOL

That's what I remember from above. I tried. Sigh.

Carolyn

just butting in here to die laughing at Shoe's poem:)

Carolyn,
I understand what you are saying and am "afraid" your right. The trick is to know what stresses them. The control we have includes watering and nitrogen but how in the heck do you know what is the right amount of each? How do they make it at all? :-(

Sparks

Sparks,

Living in NC I don't see how you control water that drops from the sky. I have that problem, and if you know how to control it, please share. LOL

One of the most common errors folks make is to overfertilize their veggies or add too much compost or to grow in too rich soil because of added amendments.

When I was not growing organically I fertilized just twice a season and that's more than enough. Once about 2-3 weeks after setting out transplants and once when fruits are setting. maybe a third application if the season has been rtainy. but that would be with a foliar application becasue it's too hard to get near mature plants at that time. At least it always was for me since I also let plants sprawl, which is the way they grow in nature. (smile)

A nice 5/10/5 or triple 5 or even a triple 10 fertilizer is fine. it's the anount added that's important. A handful/pplant is about right and work in with a hoe.

So, if talking about irrigating tomatoes, mulching can help ensure even delivery of water as it also can with water from the sky.

Cool it on too much fertilixzer; tomatoes are NOT heavy feeders.

The other inducers of BER cannot be controlled, but since only the earliest fruits are affected I really don't let BER bother me. As the plants mature they become better able to deal with the many stresses that can induce BER and thus it ceases to be a problem for most folks after nitial early fruit problems.

And you also ask "how do they make it all"?

Well, permit me to vent a bit here.

Tomato culture these days is a product of garden writers and book writers having too much time on their hands. LOL My opinion on this. Better stated, magazines have need for copy to fill pages. Book publishers have need of folks to write the great tomato novel that will make them money; most don't. So there's a lot of ridiculous and bad information out there mixed in with the good. And that's my dfinition of good. (smile)

Tomatoes are amongst the easiest and most tolerant to adverse condition types of frutis to grow. But oh, those articles and books and websites now, telling you add this, dont' add that, prune this, don't prune that, don't let them sprawl, always cage them, don't cage them, stake them, add fisheads, add Epsom salts, add match heads, put sugar in the planting hole, use only organic methods, use only non-organic methods, don't let the temps get above 92 dont'] let the temps get below 48, only start seeds in this, only start seeds in that, use chamomile tea ro prevent damping off, use cinnamon for same, use a good artificial mix and ensure air movemnent and you won['t have damping off.

Good Lord I could go on forever here, but thankfully for all of you I won't. LOL

For heavens sake I plead with folks to just let the plants grow. Don't coddle, don't get so influenced by what you read here and there, experiemnt, judge, alter conditions if you need to, but don't make an icon out of tomatoes. LOL

Carolyn, now slithering away to go munch on some Easter dark chocolate. And excuse the typos; don't want to take time to correct same.

This Tomato Forum would seem rather pointless if we were to refrain from "making an icon" of tomatoes. I find the varying experiences and resultant techniques to be of great interest, and hope everyone continues to share their observations. There is much to be learned from our friends here.

(Thanks tiG...now get up off the floor and go plant 'maters!) ;>)

Thanks to everyone for keeping a lively topic going! Love it! Can't get enuff of it!

Am now off to get some tomatoes in the ground! ô¿ô

My poor head is spinning, have I already ruined my future tomato plants? I added finished worm bedding to my soil, can't do much about it now. :-( Oh well, will see what happens. Yes this is an interesting thread. My biggest problem is being so old I don't have time to experiment with all of the different suggestions. I am still planning on getting at least one good mater this year.

Sparks

There is much to be learned from our friends here.

Which John, is my whole point. LOL

I'm desperately trying to say that we should look to folks with experience who have tried many methods and not so much , perhaps, to those whose primary interest is not the actual growing of tomatoes. Folks who have already tried many methods can at least give guidance and pros and cons of their results.

I guess that got lost in the shuffle when I decided to vent a bit. LOL

As I've said so often, each person has to experiment with this and that and make up their OWN mind what works best, or what variety tastes best, etc.

And that's in contrast to reading something somewhere and just blindly following.

Just my opinions, as a disclaimer.

Carolyn

Like I said a few posts above:

"I find the varying experiences and resultant techniques to be of great interest, and hope everyone continues to share their observations."

As for me, I simply love the fact that there are no givens (except for maybe learning the "basics" of growing, and that applies to flowers, veggies, and what-not).

I've experimented all my gardening life. More often than not if someone told me what doesn't work then I consider that a challenge and have gone that route to "really" see the results...whether it did work or didn't (for me). I've gone very unorthodox with growing techniques (and lack of techniques) to see what would or would not happen, and have benefitted from them all. I just love it!

It's been said many times (not just by me either!), "what works for some may not work for others". That is great! The same is true for many areas in our personal lives, not just in our gardening lives.

Hmmm...gardening teaches people, people don't necessarily teach the garden. Know what I mean?

Horseshoe, you make me grin as I am sure you do others. You have spoken words of wisdom and those are the words that make life so interesting.

Sparks

Carolyn

You can vent all you like here. Please carry on! You're among loving friends.

Your 'vents' are usually worth a whole doctoral thesis...

Love

John

You can vent all you like here. Please carry on! You're among loving friends

John, I only vent maybe once every two years, so you can relax for another two years. LOL

I think what happens this time of the year is that I post at two other websites which are very fast paced and I end up answering the same questions over and over and over, and by this time of the Spring season, I'm getting a tad weary and perhaps a bit frustrated. Perhaps it's time to take a short respite. I say that but then don't do it. (smile)

I post only because I have the time to, now that I'm retired, and I love to help others when and where I can. Period. If I can transmit some of my experiences of growing tomatoes for over 50 years, along with variety help based on the over 1000 varieties I've grown, etc.,and it helps someone else, I'll gladly do it.

And I'm among loving friends here? Well, I'm not sure about that, LOL, some maybe , but life is not a popularity contest as far as I'm concerned.

Gardening is my love and my life and that's that, plain and simple.

Carolyn, immersed in this terrific 24 volume saga re English history; novels ,mind you, but historically accurate. Too bad the series started around the early 1400's so I don't get to read about my presumed Celtic ancestors. LOL Also reading a terrific mystery where the perp is IDed because of some out of season tomatoes. (smile)

OK a real challenge here and from reading the above post I hope to find some answers. I live in an area that is hot most of the year 75-95 and lots of sun!!! Now this is not always a great place to be since we have NE winds in the winter time that bring in burning salt spray. Poor soil if none at all. And bugs and night critters unknown, I'm thinking bats and birds. I have raised beds with imported bags of soil, hummus and cow manure. I use a drip water system. I love a good tomatoe for just eating on sandwiches and salads not planning on canning. OK what would be the best tomatoes for me to plant????? Since I can plant year around I'm looking forward to the end of summer results from some of those listed above. To all of those who reply at this site I take my hat off to you for your time and true love of gardening. I have always said that gardeners must be a loving and caring group of people for it takes that to be a true gardener.

Hi Islandgrower, I live where it is hot about 90% of the time. We grow Heatwave tomatoes. However, our cutoff date for planting was about 3 weeks back. When you live in such a hot climate, you neeed to plant early to beat the intense heat that is right around the corner. I would think you have better luck planting your tomato seeds in your "winter". If you can't find heatwave tomato seeds...please email me, I'll check around here and send you some. Lisa

Thank you for the offer justmelisa!! I've heard negative things about the heatwave. Some say it is tasteless and others say its not worth growing. I will give it a try anyway. Will be back in the states this summer so will pick up a package of seeds then. I have been trying to start things in Sept since our water here is very costly and I find it is best to grow when it is cooler. But the winter can still take a jump and get hot.LOL A true gardener never gives up. Thank again and if anyone else has any input I'm still open for them. Trisha

Hi Islandgrower,

I live where it stays in the 90's and upward in the summer. I have started tomatoes very late and during the heat of the summer. You just need to baby them a whole lot. I don't even cover them. I water from burried soaker hoses but with youngsters, I hand water until their roots take hold. I don't like heatwave either. I thought I had not grown them last year, but found a burried stake under a plant I almost pulled.

This year I am growing a total of 17 varieties. It has been unusually cool here, so my tomatoes are out late.

I do have one tomato that just loves the sun. I also grew it when I lived a block from the beach in So Cal. I had to make sure that I kept the bottom leaves way above the ground. It is a hybrid. Supersteak. It grew so well for me and has a wonderful flavor. It does not get BER much at all except sometimes when it turns foggy. It is not shapped too great, sort of like a mutant. But, the taste is so worth the effort and I have many who can't wait each year for them.

I suggest that you broaden your horizons and try some different varieties, you just never know what will work for you. My Dad lives in the desert in Nevada. He grows his tomatoes under 40% shade cloth and has great results. He is also trying about 15 varieties.

Because of all the wonderful people like Carolyn, the varieties that I picked this year are open pollinated except for 3. I only have a couple who have not shown up yet, but, as I said, we have been cool. I can't wait to taste some of these tomatoes. Especially Black from Tula and Cherokee Purple!

Guess, I'd better shut my mouth now... Sorry I was so long winded.

Please don't worry about being long winded. As you know gardeners can go on forever about any gardening subjects.

I have shadecloth on all of my rasied bed not only for the sun but the NE winds.
I have a friend who gave me 3 plants and said they were supersteaks. We both got huge plants and little or no fruit. My plants were suckers he removed from his mother plants. Could this be a problem??? I now have some plants growing from the tops of old plants (Sungold and Betterboys) that were tired. Is this a good thing or a waste of my efforts???
Could you tell me where you are getting your seeds?
Please let me know how you growing is going over the summer.I hope to stay in touch with this website thru the summer by using family and friends computers as we travel to see everyone.

Islandgrower...your suckers/plants are not the problem. I've propagated many 'mater plants that way in an effort to get quick starts for my second (and sometimes third) plantings. It really sound like, if you're getting all plants and no fruit, too much nitrogen. This could also be combined with the high temps you seem to be having. However, does it not cool down in the evenings/nites there?

Your growing/gardening sounds like a wonderful challenge to be met head-on. Hope we can help you more and more at the season progresses.

As for seeds, I usually save my own. Wish I could send you some plants to get you going good tho. But if you ever need seeds let me know...I'll send them in a heart beat!

The nitrogen was ruled out since I had different types in the same raised bed that did produce.
I did read that the supersteak has been know to grow big and produces less. Who knows why one has luck and the other fails.
I would love some seeds.If I provide you with a USA address could you mail them?? If they are mailed here the postage is $$$. Since I'm new at this do I post my address here or how?? Thanks again

To exchange your address,click on the person's name you wish to trade with..It is a link to their personal page.From there,you can email that person without posting your address for the world to see.

All blue words are a link,so that you can access information in ways other than posting.It helps when you aren't sure of a word's meaning,or need to contact another member.

Hope this helps.

Feel free to email me, Islandgrower. I don't think it cost much to send seeds to your island.