Cherokee Purple

Melody.....or anyone. What is your experience with raising Cherokee Purple tomatoes? I only raised them one year (2001). They were delicious, but the vines did not yield very well for me. Is this typical of this variety? I hate to use my valuable limited gardening space for varieties that have low production yields, but on the other hand, the CP's were delicious with their rich unique flavor.

Owen

I would describe them as moderately productive, Owen. Not as good as some, but better than others. Fruits should average 8-12 ounces.

Personally, I would grow them regardless of output, because their flavor is so good.

Maybe I could try a container of them and use some super-duper fertilizer:) Maybe plant them in a container of 100% horse manure.....suppose that would alter the taste? LOL

My experience mirrors Brook's...not as productive as a hybrid,but quite acceptable. This last summer,it was about all that produced in the terrible conditions that we had.

Let me add that last year shouldn't count as a test of any variety new to you. What with the crazy heat, and the drought, and all, it just wasn't a normal growing year for anybody.

Were it me, I would re-try any variety that was a first-timer in 2002.

I tried Cherokee Purple in 2001. Did not grow them in 2002, but the varieties I did grow last year I kept watered....could not keep them very cool though:) I did have several varieties that produced just great in that hot weather though.

Has anyone tried "Tomatoes Alive" fertilizer? Results?

Never tried it Owen,heard of people who did with mixed results.

OK. I tried it....added in soil with my usual amendments to a few of my tomato plants, while not using it on the others. I saw absolutely no difference in the plants throughout the summer. Beware of "miracle" products. I suppose maybe if one used it vs using no fertilizer at all there may be a difference, but I never ever use no fertilizer at all. Veggies need lots of organic material and fertilizer in my 40+ years of experience in gardening. Wish I had a HUGE compost bin:)

I too grew "Cherokee Purple" Heirloom tomatoes last summer in our drought stricken garden. I had the same experience that everyone else did. The taste was good, not excellent, but again, it was a terribly dry year. The tomato production was fair to poor, but again I attribute it to the severe drought. We do add a tremendous amount of soil amendments each year, so that was not a factor. I used "gray water" which was recycled from the shower, to water those pathetic plants throughout our very hot summer months. I did get the tomatoes to produce, but the harvest was NOT abundant and most definitely NOT up to my expectations. I truly believe that it was not the variety of the tomato, but the extreme growing conditions last summer. I have high hopes for the summer of '03!

I grew them last season in NY . Did not care especially for the flavor, although some other family members did. Too bland for me I like the slightly acid bite in my maters. I will grow 2 plants again for the variety this year. I thought production was average but I have well amended soil and use Miracle-Gro every 3 weeks to boost the plants.

In all of your opinions, besides providing the very best soil possible, what fertilizer, organic or commercial,
have you trialed to be the very best for tomatoes?

Has anyone done testing with different kinds and shown better results with some over others? Have any of them proved to reduce blossom end rot and other various tomato maladies???

All I use is compost.

Fertilizer will have no effect on BER, which is caused by an inability of the plant to utilize existing calcium. I find that by adding epsom salts to the planting hole the ability to use calcium is increased, and BER is not a problem. Another cause is inconsistent watering, which, again, is related to calcium intake.

This could be an interesting topic. If it were me, I'd start a new thread on fertilizers so that more people see it and respond

This message was edited Monday, Jan 20th 4:25 PM

Brook,

If Epsom salts reduces the incidence of BER for you then it means you're growing in acidic soils because what magnesium sulfate does is to lessen the acidity so that the normal calcium that's there can be absorbed. Ca++ can't be absorbed under acidic soil conditions.

Carolyn

Could be, Carolyn. I've never had it tested. Basically, I grow pragmatically. What works, works. What doesn't is modified or discarded.

All I know on this issue is that the one time I didn't add epsom salts is the only time I experienced BER. So now I just automatically do it.

Am I too late to add my tuppence worth to the Cherokee Purple debate?

I grew them last year in the UK, temperate zone 8A, outdoors, and they thrived. But... they were very late. And August blight cut them down.

I brought them in green to ripen indoors, so was able to salvage the seed.

They had grown very well to that point, without BER, perhaps because I had sunk the transplants into planting pockets comprised of 30% dried comfrey leaf - along with 60% home-made compost and 10% topsoil. A very rich mix.

I grew out 220+ tomatoes that way, and not one suffered from any disease. Except blight.

Could potash-rich comfrey be a BER preventive?

Hope you'll excuse me if I post my dealie on BER here. Plants with fruits that have BER have normal Ca++ levels in the plant tissues, for starters.

And just a couple of quick comments before I cut and paste that post here.

John, I can't see where potassium would make any difference at all under normal soil conditions.

Brook, per your comment above, I've recently learned that ammonium nitrate can affect BER devlopment. And at this very moment I can't rememeber which way. LOL If you want me to I can go fetch.


From: cmale@aol.com
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2001 3:08 pm
Subject: Blossom End Rot


Blossom End Rot (BER) is one of the most common tomato problems seen in the
early part of the season. It is a physiological condition, not a disease
caused by a fungus or a bacterium or a virus. Therefore it cannot be treated.
And as I'll explain below, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to
prevent. BER has nothing to do with the blossoms, it refers to the fact that
at the end of the tomato opposite the place where the tomato is attached to
the
stem, called the stem end, is the bottom of the tomato, which is called the
blossom end. You often can see remnants of the blossom attached to that end
as the tomato forms. At the blossom end one sees a flattened area that looks
leathery and initially brown and then black, as the fruit rots.

BER is said to occur when there is uneven watering, drought, heavy rainfall,
excessive nitrogen fertilization, rapid plant growth or root pruning during
cultivation, high winds and rapid temperature changes. So lots of conditions
have been associated with BER. But the rapid plant growth and nitrogen
fertilization are both common to conditions seen early in the season, and
indeed, that is when most BER occurs. Then it usually just goes away.

BER occurs because under the conditions just stated, Ca++ moves from the
fruit into the vasculature (stems) of the plant. Or, some feel that Ca++
never reaches the fruits becasue under stress demand for Ca++ exceeds
supply.This lowered amount of Ca++ is what causes BER. Excessive rates of
transpiration (kind of like sweating in humans) also is involved in Ca++
displacement. Thus, the plant as a whole is NOT Ca++ deficient, the Ca++ has
just been displaced. Many books and magazine articles tell you that by adding
Ca++ in the form of lime or
eggshells, for instance, that you can prevent BER. That does NOT appear to be
true. University field trial
experiments have so far failed to show that BER can be prevented by addition
of Ca++. Peppers and many cole crops are also susceptible to BER and
there's quite a bit of literature on BER and Ca++ for those crops also. The
results are the same; addition of Ca++ does not prevent BER.


Some data strongly suggests that foliar spraying with Ca++ is of no use
because not enough gets to the fruits to do any good. And it's known that the
sprays for fruits that are sold are usless. No molecules can get across the
fruit epidermis. If they did, just what do you think would happen to the
fruits when it rained.LOL

Not all varieties of tomatoes get BER. Some never do, others are horrible.
That's not surprising since certainly there are slight physiological
differences between varieties. After all, almost all garden tomatoes, with
the exception of the currant tomatoes are in the same genus and species,
Lycopersicon lycopersicum. And we humans are all in the same species, Homo
sapiens, var. sapiens....and look how different some of our physiologies are.
Whoa!

So, BER is a physiological condition, cannot be cured, and current
literature data suggests it cannot be prevented. It occurs on some, but not
all varieties of tomatoes, is usually seen early in the season and then
stops, for most folks. It would be nice to say that you could even out your
watering, prevent droughts and heavy rainfalls, ensure even and not rapid
growth of plants and not disturb the roots by shallow cultivating. But on a
practicle
basis, I think we all know that's almost impossible. So, BER has never
bothered me, I just ignore it, and it goes away with time.


Adding Ca++ to soils that are Ca++ deficient makes sense, but few soils are.
And if soils are acidic, Ca++ is not taken up well but addition of Epsom
Salts to the soil can aid in Ca++ uptake in such acidic soils.

Many folks add Ca++ and then see that BER disappears. What they fail to
realize is that BER is going to go away anyway, as the season progresses. And
that's becasue as the plants get larger they are better ableto handle the
many stresses that can induce it. So one cannot correlate addition of Ca++ to
disappearance of BER. Universities have done so many stidies on this already
becasue BER is a billion dollar problem in the commercial veggie industry.

Of all the stresses that can induce BER thetwo that are most under control of
the home gardener are fertilization and water delivery.

That is, too much fertilizer causes plants to grow too rapidly and is perhaps
one of the major causes of BER developing. Too rich soils do the same thing.
Plant growth simply outstrips the ability of Ca++ to get to the fruits.

Mulching to help ensure even delivery of water also can be done and is also
one of the two major causes, IMHO, of BER.

BER appears usually on half ripe fruits but also can appear on grass green
ones.Lack of Ca++ only occurs at the blossom end of the fruit and it causes
tissue destruction which leads to that papery greyish/blackish lesion
appearing.Now sometimes that lesion opens up and fungi and bacteria enter and
that causes the rotting and also the appearance of fungal growth on and in
the lesion.

Just pick off any BER fruits that appear and soon the next fruits to ripen
will BERless.

Many books, magazine articles and websites still say to add Ca++ as lime,
eggshells, etc, and seem not to be aware of all the research that has been
done in the last 20 years. But many books, magazine articles, are now sharing
this newer information about addition of Ca++ not being able to either
prevent or cure BER except in rare situations of low Ca++ soils or acidic
soils.

I suppose it will take another generation for the right information to be
present everywhere. And from my own experience i can tell you that there will
be folks who will get madder than can be when they read this kind of info
becasue they simply believe otherwise. So be it.LOL Addition of modest
amounts of Ca++ aren' t harmful, but I feel strongly that folks should know
what's going on with past and current rsearch re BER and Ca++.

Carolyn
NY, zone 4/5
The above updated on 7/27/01

well, personally I'm going to continue to do what works for me. That is to lime my tomatoes on or about July 4th with dolomitic lime. My simple minded reasoning for doing so goes like this: In the years when I did this I had no BER and in the years when I did NOT do this I had BER n varying degrees up to and including devastating.I also respectively suggest that if an experiment is designed to produce a previously chosen result, that result will be produced.

"I've recently learned that ammonium nitrate can affect BER devlopment. And at this very moment I can't rememeber which way. LOL If you want me to I can go fetch."

Carolyn,

Yes, please.

Everytime I read about BER I learn more and more. However, I just take it as another episode in the life of the garden.
May thanks to you all for the input, I love it! It seems that what works for some may or may not work for others. Kikisdad, if liming works for you on July 4th what a break thru! (Am wondering "why" it works tho, but then again I tend to wonder why something happens, or not happens, often times more so than why my fruit did or did not produce.) (As an aside, maybe your soil is acidic, and that is why the lime works for you to prevent BER. Then again, I've also heard that it takes lime 3 to 6 months to have an effect on the soil pH, so who knows, eh?) As for the Epsom Salts treatment, that could certainly react more quickly (again that comes from research "somewhere" along the lines), and would explain Brook's results with it. I know in the past I've been one of those to spray it in liquid form on the foliage in hopes to prevent BER, only to find out it was not much of a help. (However, it certainly seemed to help flowers to set.)

As for ammonium nitrate...that is a pretty strong and harsh form of nitrogen, and I wonder if because of its strength that is causing the too-rapid growth that Carolyn was referring to above.

As for me, even tho I don't seem to have an exorbitant amount of BER (to worry about), I'd still like to find some of those varieties that seem to be excluded from being the victims of it. Anybody know?

I also respectively suggest that if an experiment is designed to produce a previously chosen result, that result will be produced.


The various Universities and the USDA that did the BER studies did not design studies to produce a previously chosen result. That is not part of what's called the Scientific Method of research. One states a problem ( an hypothesis) then designs experiments to test that given hypothesis. Most important are the controls that are used so that variables are kept to a minimum.

BER is a multi-million dollar problem for the vegetable industry since it affects so many different veggies.It would not be in the interest of either the USDA or the primarily state funded Universities that do agricultural research to select a given outcome and then design experiments to prove it. Research just isn't done that way.

Personally I don't know how one could even "rig" such an experiment.

I guess having spent a good deal of my career doing research I do react when someone suggests that results can be and/or are predetermined. Personal moral values is one issue but peer review in terms of being able to publish results, and such results from several sources re BER studies, is an excellent check on the worthiness of any such research.

Any information gained from BER studies will help commercial and backyard farmers/gardeners alike.

Carolyn

As to the application of lime in mid season,I have also believed that the lime takes 3-4 months to become useable by plants.I have limed a couple of times in my garden, and always in the fall.I've not done it every year,as my soil is pretty neutral as it is,and seems to be in decent condition...We always hope for better,but considering everything,mine's acceptable.

As to BER,I've had minimal problems with it,and usually early in the season.It seems that the Roma types of tomatoes seem to have it in my garden more than any other type or variety.The first flush of fruit is where I see it,if it happens at all.

This thread - and many like it - illustrates for me, the profound reason for continuing to subscribe to this site.

Wisdom like this simply cannot be found in textbooks, nor in any other - easily obtainable - web resource.

That's why I'm proud to be a paid subscriber. Those who demur at paying Dave's trifling subcription, frankly - need to be doused repeatedly in an infusion of marestail root.

It may help their brain cells grow.

Seriously, thanks - Brook and Carolyn!

(Seriously...)

Actually if one does a search for "blossom end rot" using yahoo's search engine, the 1st page of results include papers from the universities of Tennessee,North Carolina and Cornell U. that state that BER is controllable with applications of lime and with foliar spraying of calcium chloride. On the same page of results is the Nebraska paper saying that this is simply not so.
It appears that these experts do not agree on the treatability of BER although there seems to be a consensus that the cause is calcium deficiency at the blossom end of the fruit for SOME reason.
I also worked in the field of R&D for many years, specializing in failure analysis of products from field return failures. Often the results of the failure analysis showed that the results reported from designed experiments were fatally flawed, leading to production of inferior products which subsequently produced the field failures. That does not imply immorality,prejudice or other deliberate tampering with the scientific method. It does indicate that experimental data is not foolproof, especially if only a single source is consulted. Relying on such advice could lead to bridge collapses, space shuttle explosions or even the failure of your tomato crop!

You are absolutely correct in saying that a search re BER brings up a variety of opinions, for what you see at the various University websites is not actual data, rather summary opinions written by and large for the public.

I can't tell you how many BER links I keep in my faves. LOL And you'll notice in my post above I did not say infrmation was from one source; I carefully said many sources.

So without seeing the actual data ( although I have been sent several published papers) how does one interpret what is written when not everyone agrees?

For instance, if you go to the Texas A and M site, you'll see two points of view; one from the Master Gardeners who are at that site and one from A and M itself for their public page and Q and A. Interesting.

And what I've seen over the past 5-10 years is an increasing number of websites changing what they've said in the past re Ca++ ,in recognition of the newer data.

I don't pretend to be a tomato physiologist, so I rely on those who know more than I do to try and bring sense to the area. And in my case that's Dr. Tom Zitter of Cornell who knows the various groups doing such research and is far better able to make judgment calls than I am, as to the prevailing winds re BER and more inmportantly, the experimental design of the actual work and most importantly, the specific individuals doing the research.

And I'll couple that initial interaction with Dr. Zitter with the wonderful contact I've had with tomato growers everywhere, both through an international newsletter I used to publish on heirloom tomatoes and through over 10 years now, of posting and answering questions at several websites.

That kind of personal experience re BER and all other tomato matters has been invaluable.

If you're convinced that adding dolmitic limestone to plants on July 4th prevents BER on fruits for that season, then that's what you should continue doing. But for many many folks adding Ca++ in any form does not prevent BER.

I think we've pretty much exhausted this issue by now, for there will be those who do this, and those who do that, and the plants grow and the fruits form and outcomes will be different for many folks because the most important stress factors that induce BER are independent of Ca++ availability since Ca++ levels in plant tissue of plants that have fruits that have BER are quite normal, indicating no lack of Ca++ in the plant itself.

Thus the many stresses that can induce Ca++ deficiency in the distil portion of the fruits seems to be the crucial issue, rather than Ca++ availability to the plant itself. And those stresses are going to vary from garden to garden, from town to town, from state to state, etc. based on many factors which include gardening methods used, fertilizers used, weather conditions re rain versus mulching and high winds or low or high temps , and on and on. About the only stress that can be controlled is ensuring an even supply of water to the plants. The other stresses are random and capricious.

Carolyn

Ever Onward! >BG

So to sum it up, at this point in time anyway...Stress (which comes in many different forms) is the major cause of BER, not a lack of calcium. And said stress simply halts the utilization of calcium to the fruit itself, and not the plant as a whole.

And, the main Stress that we have control over is our watering habits (and quite possibly being sure not to overfeed, thereby causing too rapid of a growth).

Does that sound like I have a feel for this now? :>)
(I LOVE this stuff!!!) ô¿ô

OK, OK!

Why don't all of us, that have viewed these pages on the subject make an experiment of our own?

One plot well-watered, without additional calcium or lime, one plot with. One plot under moderate stress, or irregular watering with additional calcum, and one without.

Four plots under the same soil mix and sun exposure. Lets see what OUR results indicate.

HMMM????

Oh! And use the same variety (ies) in each plot.


This message was edited Tuesday, Feb 18th 3:25 PM

sounds like fun to me. the thing is we need a statisitically representative sample from each variety we choose. Then we can calculate the margin of error that our experiment will have. also we can't control such factors as temperature, length and/or intensity of available light (sun),mineral content of the irrigation source (suppose your water has CALCIUM in it!) and mine doesn't alas,and probably several other factors. also my tomatoes are probably more stressed than most since they have this crazy guy walking around amongst them muttering all sorts of inanities while being followed by a couple neurotic felines. But,by golly, if you set it up I'll be glad to precipitate er participate as best I can!

Sounds like a good plan,but what about the opposite problem? I had way too much rain last spring.Everything either rotted or floated...and I'm one of the highest points in the county.My poor plants were stressed beyond belief.I had a little early BER on Doux Dougats Di Napoli,but everything else was ok.Will heavy rains for several weeks affect calcium usage? The poor tomatoes didn't produce well,so I couldn't get much of an idea about productivity of different varieties...but the BER was about as expected for the year. Any wisdom about too much water?

Doux Dougats Di Napoli

Melody,

I can't help myself, so please don't flog me with wispy tomato foliage, but your rendition of that variety name is quite inventive.( smile)

It's Dix Doights de Naples, otherwise known as Ten Fingers of Naples.

Your rendition makes me think of nougat candy. LOL

Dix Doights de Naples is one variety I never forget because it's one of only two circumstances where the plant showed me a somatic mutation. Those are very rare. The other variety to do so was Green Gage.

Shoe, you've pretty much got it except it still isn't clear if various stresses prevent Ca++ in the plant from reaching the fruits ( demand/supply problem) or if Ca++ already in the forming fruits exits the fruit to the vasculature of the plant and then is possibly lost by transpiration. The molecular events still are not absolutely clear, as far as I know.

Carolyn

Heh,heh,heh...temporary brain malfunction!! I knew better and typed it in and then_proof read _the darned thing!!

Hey! Horsesfeathers, it seems a more likely summation/conclusion to this careless, convoluted and indefinitve discourse might indicate indecisevly that the bottom end of a tomater may rot no matter the mater's mother or father or even it's evolutional adventures. The truly good news is that it will soon be spring and all of us theoreticians will be out there digging and hoeing and planting and fertilizing for all we are worth, trying to grow those perfect tomatoes (yeah I KNOW I spell it with an E...so what). In light of this I can only say "good luck" and, uh, don't forget to lime those tomatoes!!! HEH!

Kikisdad

Shucks, you is one educated fella! But you should have said 'its' not 'it's', of course:). (Blame my wife; she used to be a professional proofreader. But then she would also demur at my use of a semi-colon here, where a period would adequately serve...)

Yes, let's do a comparison trial along Evelyn's lines.

Getting statistically reliable results is, as you say, downright impossible with fewer than 1000 plants per bed. It's not the control of temperature or water that's the problem - they'd be fairly equal per plot.

First problem: good compost-rich soil will tend to buffer marginal variations. Second problem: accidental factors would skew results. Such as wind, animal and other pest damage, not least blight vectors.

For me, it might work (outdoors) only with ultra-early cultivars like Sasha's or Alaskan Fancy, that could give measurable results - height, foliage weight, fruit weight, and incidence of BER - before mid-August, when blight strikes at random.

I'll give it a go!

OK, call me a wet blanket, or whatever, LOL, but how the heck can all the different stresses that induce BER be controlled ( they can't) or even assessed when diffent folks in different areas of the country, yea, different countries, are participating? (smile)

And eliminating one of the variables might be growing the same variety, but I can assure you that most of the time unless you all were to use the exact same seed source for a given variety your results would be skewed.

Am I suggesting that the same variety (OP) obtained from different sources might be different? Yes, I am. Not just suggesting it, but know it. (smile)

If you used only hybrids you've have a better chance of making comparisons.

But I still suggest that there's no way to control the variables re stresses, nor to be able to assess them, when it comnes down to understanding any results.

Yes, if one person wanted to do something with a bunch of varieties in one field and thus all varieties were subject to identical conditions, that would be different.

But those results couldn't be compared to what anyone anywhere else was doing, the way I see it.

Carolyn, not a card carrying party pooper, LOL, but just trying to be realistic.

Besides which, you cannot prove the negative.

By that I mean if you don't get BER in the trial grounds, it doens't mean that each of the controlled variables necessarily had anything to do with it.

It's like those bumper-mounted deer whistles. The only time you know if they work is when they fail.

To all,
How about taking into consideration the cultural method of raising the plants? How much pruning of the plant is done? 2 stems or caged with the 3 bottom suckers removed and allowed to grow into the cage? I have found that paste type tomatoes seem to suffer more, especially the fruit that sets early in the lower clusters, whether they were determinate or indeterminate. However, drought/heat stress seems to be the biggest aggravation to the plant. Maybe selective pruning, careful irrigation, mulching and a little 30% shade cloth are some possible interventions. I'm always amazed how cherry tom's never suffer from this, at least in my experience so far. I also know a commercial grower in the chapel hill area who grows a portion of his market tom's in hoop houses all summer (hybrids and heirlooms) and he has found that these plants produce all summer. His feeling is that he can control the irrigation and keep the foliage drier after hot humid weather when the dew settles on the plants. This reduces alot of fungal diseases. Also, what about beneficial bacteria levels in the soil? Some reading I have done lately suggests that fruiting plants need certain mycorrizal (sp?) populations to thrive. I know that Peaceful Valley Farm Supply sells these bacterial inoculants, I will try them this year as I try to reclaim some worn out sandy loam that I'm growing on. Compost, manures, and cover crops will no doubt be helpful with plant health. Beltsville MD ag station has a publication about growing tomatoes on no-till mowed hairy vetch mulch. One of their findings centered around the reduced need for nitrogen fertilization b/c much was provided by the vetch thru fixation and decompostion. The other major finding was the reduction of diseases and higher yields. Lots of stuff to consider. I guess that's why everybody loves DG.

OK, back to Cherokee Purple. I think it is simply the best tomato going. It grows great in this area (SF bay), and seems to be forgiving if you forget to water.

One thing I noticed this year... I have a row in an organic garden plot that I thought I might have over-horse-manured this winter. The plants are absolutely packed with fruit. Could this mean that Cherokee Purple particularly likes lots of Nitrogen (other varieties in the same plot do not seem to be as excited about the conditions).

Whatever the case may be, I am eating Cherokee Purple for breakfast, lunch and dinner... and impressing my friends at work. God bless CP!

As most of you know,my gardens are a washout this year....literally. But my Uncle Joe has kept me supplied in tomatoes,and his CP's are out producing everything he has....including the hybrids! His Supersteaks and Beefmasters are bigger,but the Cherokee Purples are more consistant and happily give him tons of yummy maters to share. We have developed a little cult following in these parts for 'those rotten lookin' tomatoes that taste so good'One man says he can't look at them while he eats them,they look so strange,but he can't be without them either!

One more thing, of all of the large/late tomatoes that I tried to grow in 5 gallon containers this year, only Cherokee Purple is producing well.

The others that have done very well here in 5 gallon containers (good production, good taste) are green grape, clear pink early and silvery fir tree.