Moschata vers. Alcea

And yet another can of worms... [it's all Weezies fault ;-)] Can anyone explain, (in English) the differences between Malva moshata and Malva alcea. These plants are looking exactly the same to me.

Hortus says...
moschata - sts. hirsute, with spreading, simple hairs; involucral bracts usually linear-lanceolate, mericarps hispid-pubescent ... blah,blah,blah

alcea - similar to moschata, but having sts. stellate-pubescent, involucral bracts ovate, and mericarps glabrous.

I'm lost... do we have to look at the hairs to tell the difference here?

Since I opened the can of worms, I think I should be willing to eat a few. I'm not entirely familiar with all the malvas, but I grow moschatas. They are perennial, shorter than your average malva(about 36"), and have a lacy leaf. I've got a pink one, I've got a white one. They're pretty hardy.

It is my impression that Malva alcea are "hollyhocks", a biennial that I don't grow, since they don't winter over.

PS: I was going to correct your misspelling of moschata, since you spelled it moshata... then I realized I've been spelling it mochata! I'd better go back and see how it's entered in the PDB! Yet another can of worms! LOL

OK, now I'm beginning to see your quandry...Alcea rosea is the biennial hollyhock, and Malva alcea is commonly called "Hollyhock Mallow". Help, Baa!!!!

I'll do some more investigating myself.

OK, PoppySue, I found this page on the web that has some pretty good photos of M. alcea: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.gut-im-bild.at/pages2/Malva-alcea.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMalva%2Balcea%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

My alba moschata was purchased as seed from one of the catalogs, so if I trust them, it is, in fact, moschata. My pink one arrived as a plant from a friend in Washington state, so I can't say for sure. I know that both plants do not look like a hollyhock or grow like a hollyhock. There is no main stem, but rather, branching stems from the bottom. Here's a photo of my white one, that was called White Perfection on my Vesey's seed packet.

Differences according to RHS

Malva alcea

Has large flowers at 2-3 inches across
Has funnel shaped flowers
Basal leaves are not only heart shaped but also scalloped and upto 12 inches long
Leaves are hairy but not scented
Height is upto 4ft
Flower colour is a purplish pink
Flowers borne in a terminal raceme and axilary clusters

Malva moschata

Leaves are slightly musk scented
Flowers are smaller at 1.5-2.5 inches across
Basal heart shaped leaves grow upto 4 inches long and aren't scalloped or hairy
Has saucer shaped flowers
Flower colours are pale pink or white
Flowers borne in axilary clusters only
Height is upto 3ft

I'm beginning to hate malvas. PoppySue, here is a great site for malva identification. This is the M. moschata page with a few pictures of M. species (alcea?) at the bottom: http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvaceae/Malva/galleryB.html

I've come to the conclusion that my malvas are both M. mochata. I haven't been able to find the name 'White Perfection' anywhere, so it must have been one of those creative titles. I did find 'Pink Perfection', but I think alba & rosea work just fine. If there is a distinction, it seems to be in the height or compactness of the plant... who knows!

I've taken the info and compared it in a list, using Baa's info. I saved this as a word doc, adding a couple pictures. I'll email it to you. Hope you can open it.

As for the absolute distinction between M. alcea & M. moschata, a real test would seem to be the smell, but it's a bit late for that around here! At any rate, I'm comfortable in placing my photos in the M. mochata alba entry. I also have photos of the pink, and will add them to M. mochata rosea, unless I feel unsure.

>>

I'd say there was a bit more to it than that WZ :)

The basal leaves are different as is the flower shape. OK it's not going to be one of those plants we call tell the difference of in a photo but if you grow it then they are things you might have seen.

OK, Baa, can you explain "funnel-shaped" flowers to me. Does this mean that the blooms never fully open? If so, it is certainly disputed by most of the photos on the websites. Of course, these are often contradictory, as well.

As for the leaf, I know that the basal leaves can be quite different than the upper stem leaves, some heartshaped, some quite lacey. The sheer size of the M. alcea leaf (12") would seem to exclude mine. I have one white-flowered established plant, and the leaves never reach that size.
To my recollection the leaves on my plant are not "hairy". They are a darkish green, most are spidery in appearance, and smooth to the touch.

I can quite see PoppySue's quandry, and I'd be thrilled if you could give me some websites that exemplify the difference. I'm afraid I've just become upset by the contradictions.

WZ

This is a funnel shaped flower

Lilium rubellum
http://www.thealpinegarden.com/RUBELLUM.gif

The saucer shape is much shallower.

I'll see if I can find some clear pictures of each Malva for you :)

I should mention that funnel shaped flowers can be quite open, here is a good picture of M. alcea flowers

http://www.thegardenhelper.com/screensaver/buds/pres0003.html

As you plant has nonhairy, dark green leaves then that would suggest M. moschata, M. alcea has light green leaves in the main.

Unfortunately, there are no good pictures of basal leaves of either plant that I can find. Until people focus more on the whole plant or various plant parts I doubt there will ever be much more than flower picutres on the web.

Baa: I already posted this link, but it's easier to post it again than explain where it is! There are some pretty good pics here, and it certainly displays the various leaf shapes on a moschata: http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvaceae/Malva/galleryB.html

OK, here's a picture of my pink malva that I believe to be M. moschata. You can see the size of the bloom compared to my hand. As you can see, it is a rather small bloom, and the plant is not very tall....under 2 ft.

Sorry WZ, I'm completely lost. If you say it's M. moschata then you'll get no argument from me :)

Yes, it is dragging on, isn't it. That's what happens when I spend a pitch black day indoors listening to the rain hammer against the roof! The basement has three inches of water in it again. I surely wish we'd start having some winter around here!

Weez - you've been a bizzie bee today!! I looked at malva photos last night until they all looked the same. I think Baa is right about about not being able to see a noticable difference in a photo and if the two plants were side by side there'd be some obvious differences.

I'm just gonna have to get some M.alcea seeds and grow them for myself. I'm pretty sure my plants, both white & pink, are M.moschata. I find they bloom at all different heights. I can hack away at the plants because they're flopping all over the neighbors, and the darn things will start blooming again at a foot tall.

PoppySue: Well, I've about made up my mind that both mine are moschata's, too. I know the white one was from seed marked M. moschata 'White Perfection', so I guess I'll believe them. As far as I can tell the only thing that would make the moschata white or pink 'Perfection' is the height and compactness.

One more interesting characteristic I found on the web was that moschatas have thin petals so light comes through them more readily. I know that mine are like that. It just seems that the alcea is a huskier sort of bloom and a heftier sort of plant than what I have. Are we going to create entries for moschata rosea and another for moschata alba?

Weez - I already created the rosea and alba entries. That's what brought on my dilemma :) I still need to go back and check them over and correct any boo-boos. let me know if you see any too.