Fruit trees (not graftling)

Reading the rose cuttings thread reminded me of a question that has been purplexing me for a long time. Why are all fruit trees produced by grafting branches ontu a generic rootstock?

It's known that the legendary Johnny Appleseed never did practice grafting - he only grew his apple trees from seed. He believed that grafting "hurt" the trees.

Now, I hear the argument that the tree won't come true from seed, but what about other methods of propogation, like cuttings? I have produced new cherry trees from hardwood cuttings this year, and I'm wondering if these will come true like the parent. Why wouldn't they?

Can anyone explain this to me?

dave

dave, most are grafted to get a certain variety that is higher quality than seedling fruit. an example would be seedling grapefruit trees you see that produce fruit. the rootstock gives the plant a better chance to survive and produce a better quality product.

trifoliata rootstock for citrus will produce a sour orange with numerous seeds.(over here, anyway) when you bud or graft owari orange or washington navel on this, you get a premium product that is marketable. Lisa

But what about producing it via cuttings? It seems to me like you are taking a branch from the stud and giving it a root system on which to grow.

So, why would making the new tree from cuttings be any different from grafting?

I would think in our case that the trifoliata root stock it is more hardy down here.Grafting it on a better root stock gives it a better chance of producing, just my guess. I don't know. Good question, I will find that one out! I'll ask my citrus grower friend. Lisa

The way it has been explained to me is that you use different rootstock because it is more disease resistant than it would be if you didn't. For instance, down here in GA we have a big problem with nematodes. We graft peaches onto Lovell or Nemaguard rootstock because it is better able to fight the nematodes we have in our soil.

Okay dave, this is what my buddy said:in grafting or budding, you are attaching an improved variety. for example, with air layering, cuttings, etc. you are producing the same plant. in grafting, you are producing a superior plant.
they are both forms of asexual production
***Pete2 that is about what you said..you go girl...looks like that MG course is not a bunch of mahlarkie after all..:-) Lisa

LOL, Lisa! I really am learning alot in that course. I'm so glad I signed up for it! :)

Terri

I know I am glad I went through it! We just had our first group project last weekend. What a great time we all had. Lisa

Dave, I am not sure there is much known about J.Appleseed and his horticultural knowledge. Grafting was not common until the 19th Century as I recall (of course, not personally ;-)

At least in this part of the country, State repositories for clonal materials tend to be heavy on potential rootstock plants. It is a rare rootstock that makes it into the commercial trade versus a lot of "superior" fruiting clonal topgrafting materials.

Rooted cuttings (= on their own roots) may not have good resistance to pests, diseases, and abiotic factors like wind, poor drainage, or sun scald.

Even varieties that come true from seed as best then grafted onto a better rootstock, or even a successful older seedling. Grafting tends to accelerate fruit bearing. I had a mango seedling that hadn't flowered in 10 years. I also started one which at 3 years of age I grafted onto the 10-year-old and got that "branch" to flower and fruit in two years. A sad ending: runover by a cat tractor.

My uncle has lots of apple trees. He grows seedlings from seed, then grafts branches FROM THE SAME TREE onto his seedlings. It's beyond me. I definitely see the benefit of the better rootstock, but to use the rootstock from the same parent tree?

...maybe he likes the challenge of grafting..:-) Lisa

Lisa, should I try this with one of your loquat trees? graft it onto something that will be stronger?

Dave, I do know that you can order rootstock for grafting. Would you like for me to get you some company names? I'll be talking to someone next Monday that will have that information.

Terri

No thanks, Terri. I've got more than enough on my plate right now to be playing around with grafting. :) Perhaps next year I'll be ready to start experimenting with that.

Nah Pebbles, I've sent you some pretty good trees...notice TREES...I think you will like them. :-) Maybe you will get them tomorrow. I sent out a trade the day before I sent yours out and she said she got them in today! Start looking out for them...Lisa

Dave, If you were to take these cuttings when would be the best time you think? Right as they start budding? Do you put them down in sand? Have you ever tried willow water?

As far as the grafting gos. I bought this old farm very grown up with trees, etc... By the old barn is what I know must be an apple tree. But no blooms or fruit. Strange I know but you would just have to see it. anyhow. Thinking about trying to graft some good kinds of apples on that whataya think? It does look like someone might have thrown a seed there and this apple tree grew there.

Thanks Lisa, I'm looking forward to getting the TREES....As you know, I can't wait!
I have a friend who is going to go into the business of growing maples for grafts. Apparently maples are the tree of choice in this area to graft onto.

Hi Kathy: I've never done any grafting, so I'm not sure when the best time is. The rest of the group here undoubtly knows a multitude more than I!

Good luck,
Dave

I've heard of willow water and I have a recipe for it. It's supposed to be as good as rooting hormone. :)

KathyJo, it's possible your apple tree just needs a pollinator to make it produce. If your apple tree is a nice one, I would buy some more apple trees and try and space out the pollination times. There's a good chance that your apple tree will start producing. :)

Terri

Dave, to quote from my Master Gardner Handbook for the Va Cooperative Extension of Va Polytechnic Institute and State University:
Asexual propagation is the best way to maintain some species, particularly an individual that best represents that species. Clones are groups plants that are identical to their one parent and that can only be propagated asexually. The Bartlett pear (1770) and the Delicious apple (1870) are two examples of clones that have been propagated for many years.
The major methods of asexual propagation are cuttings, layering, division, and budding/grafting. Cuttings involve rooting a severed piece of the parent plant; layering involves rooting a part of the parent plant and then severing it; and budding/grafting are joining two plants from different varieties. Hope this helps, or did you want to hear all of this? {:-)
Sayre

P.S. Dave. I grew a plum tree from a cutting about a foot long. Just stuck it into the ground for the heck of it. The third season it bloomed and bore 3 plums. It lasted many years giving abundant fruit til the ICE STORM OF 1998 destroyed it. It had not recovered by spring of 1999 and was cut down. Many suckers used to come up in different parts of the yard which I potted and gave away!
Sayre

Thanks for the info, Sayre. I have about 50 pear seedlings in the greenhouse right now. These had appeared over the past week under my pear trees and I'm raising them in pots until I figure out what I'm going to do.

I'm probably going to let 20 grow to maturity, and then the other 20 I'll do grafting experiments. Will post the results (you can also see these seedlings in my journal under "Pear".

Dave

For starters, you may send two of the seedlings my way! Sounds like you're off to a good start. I will be watching for your progress. For someone going from Technology to Farming, must have impacted your way of life tremendously. How? What other fruit trees do you have? Since I'm just getting started, post-one year now, I am interested in what everyone is growing, how and under which conditions. Your site is giving me such great opportunities to do just that! I am interested to know what the members are doing for water conservation. I don't think that I've seen that addressed at this site. I have gotten involved with the Water Conservation Program in my area and am quite excited about it.
Sayre

Sayre: I'll send you some pear tree seedlings this fall after they lose their seeds. This way I can ship bareroot and they won't be so bothered with the transition.

I'll post my list of fruit trees in the Trees&Shrubs forum.

Dave

Gee, thanks Dave, you're a jewel!
Sayre

Yup! Just E-mail me this fall to remind me.

Dave

I am just getting starting in budding/grafting. Here is the story: for pecan trees about 2 out of 1000 seedlings will produce a good pecan. The seedling may take as long as 15 years to bear. If you graft a superior variety to a seedling rootstock your chance of getting good nuts is 100%, not 0.2%. Someone before you has done the waiting and selected the superior variety from years of patient breeding. Same with apples and peaches, they do not come true from seed. Why re-invent the wheel?

For citrus, they for the most part DO come true from seed. But seedling trees are very thorny with thorns as long a 2". They also take 5-15 years to come into production. A neighbor has a 15 foot tall key lime tree from a seed. My 3 foot tall grafted superior variety in a pot gets more limes on it than the neighbors. It also began bearing only 1 year after grafting. Some citrus do not grow well on their own roots. For example, seedling kumquats will die on you from root rot, so they must be grafted to a good rootstock. Some other citrus have inedible fruit but a disease resistent rootstocks, for example trifoliate orange.

Another concern is size of the tree. A seedling apple tree will grow to 40 feet tall. What if you wanted one that was no more than 6 feet tall so you wouldn't need a ladder to pick fruit? Use a dwarfing rootstock.

Hi Mr. Texas and welcome to Daves's Garden! :)

Thanks for that great explanation about grafting. I was just thinking. I have a "Meyer" lemon that I bought at a nursery. That sucker has the longest thorns you've ever seen! I can tell that it was grafted at the base. It did almost die totally back a few years ago after a killer freeze. I wonder if the freeze killed the grafted on "Meyer" lemon and now the only thing producing lemons is the rootstock, which I guess could conceiveably be a lemon seedling rootstock? That might explain the long thorns? What do you think? The tree does produce lemons though...really large lemons, too.

Mr.Texas, I was just wondering which companies you've found to order rootstock from? I might like to give grafting a try myself. :)

Terri

You show protect your graft with dirt banking when the temperature dips below 28F=> take a 5 gallon nursery can and cut a slit in the side so you can push it around the meyer lemon trunk and fill with dirt. This will protect the graft from freezing. Most likely the rootstock is trifoliate orange, although it could be rough lemon if it came out of Florida. Trifoliate is hard to buy. Ask around your area because it probably grows wild there, it does here. The fruit is inedible and if you find a tree, the owner will probably be glad to give you a fruit or two. The fruits are full of seeds, maybe 50 to each fruit.
link for t-budding:
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/hort400/4tutos/tbuddi1.html

http://www.floridagardener.com/misc/citrusbudding.htm
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/XC004

A friend taught me the following about T-budding citrus. My first attempt at budding ever this fall was 50% successful for a total of 9 good trees (I can now explain the other 50% as 1/2 bark not slipping good enough because of several cold nights and 1/2 budwood not mature enough because it was springy). The following cannot easily be found in written sources and has to be learned from an expert(my friend who has 30 years experience)
Rootstock
- Harvest trifoliate fruit when ripe. Wash and then seeds soak in 120F water for 5-10 minutes to kill molds. Dry seeds on paper towels, put in closed zip-lock bag in refrigerator until ready to plant.
- Grow the trifoliate rootstock to pencil size, or about 6 months - 1 year.
- Grow the rootstock in a pot to avoid having to bend over to bud(if grown in ground.)(my idea)
- Avoid sour orange as rootstock for Satsuma or cold hardy citrus since the bark will slip in the winter and not be as hardy. Satsuma trees from the Texas Rio Grande Valley are grafted on sour orange and are not hardy enough for Houston.
Budwood
- Budwood should be from a tree that is mature and bearing fruit.
- Budwood from the top of the tree is best.
- Use 2nd to last growth flush wood
- Budwood should not easily bend between your fingers or be springy
- Budwood should be round and about same size as rootstock (for beginners)
- Don't use first bud closest to 3rd growth flush, it may not have a bud
- Budwood should have some woody streaks but just a few, too many and the bud might not force easily.
- Bark must be slipping on rootstock very easily or even a good bud won't take
- Trifoliate rootstock won't slip bark in Houston area until May/June
- Bud between May and September during hot weather
- My friend buds in September and stops after a couple cools nights make the bark not slip easily.
- Wait 3 weeks. If bud stayed green then it took.
- Force the bud in the spring.

Wonderful instructions! Thank you!!! :)

Terri