What problem is affecting my Mexican Bush Sage & Roses?

I have had 2 Mexican Bush Sages for years - one in a pot right next to one in the ground. They have been vigorous growers until recently when they started to have leaves discolor and branches die (photos attached). We pruned the one in the pot hoping it would bring it back to life. Too soon to tell.

Right next to the sage are the rose bushes, which have been there for years and have always been healthy. They are also now suffering. Some of the leaves are fine while others are puckering, and becoming misshapen (photos attached).

I'm not sure if the two ailments are related or just complete coincidence. I was thinking with the drought, it might be insufficient watering but have a sense that it is something else. Thank you in advance for all identification, thoughts and suggestions!

My first guess would be thrips which love sage. They suck the green right out. They are so small you can hardly see them. I would love to get a good close up of all the white things that look like they are on the leaf not in the leaf like all the where the chlorophyll has been sucked out.
https://www.planetnatural.com/pest-problem-solver/houseplant-pests/thrips-control/

My second guess is spider mites, also hard to see, who also love sage. But the damage is similar. You should see some webbing on the back of the leaf since your infestation looks severe.
https://extension.umn.edu/yard-and-garden-insects/spider-mites

I forgot your rose. I grow over 80 roses but never got leaves like that. I think it is in the early stage of whatever infestation or disease by the looks.

There is also a rose leaf curl virus but I know nothing about it.

Also spider mites can cause such leaves on roses and the bronzing of the leaves is common then. Do you see any webbing? https://www.treloarroses.com.au/Two-Spotted-Mites-Roses

Thrip damage
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/lifestyle/home-and-garden/story/2021-07-03/inconvenient-truths-you-need-to-know-about-chilli-thrips-the-roses-foe

Roses can drive you nuts with all the problems they seem to get. Good practice is always to water early in the day. Never get the leaves wet when they will stay wet for a time. Always clean up all the shed leaves; bag and dispose. If you keep your roses well hydrated and fertilized, they often are not as susceptible to all the bad things.

BTW, the heat spell we are having will exacerbate your problems. Keep your plants well hydrated. Mites and thrips adore heat and dryness. I might even wash the foliage on both plants early in the day esp the undersides whenever you water. A good blast. And hope no fungus attacks. Normally I never wet the rose leaves except for foliar feeding because I would get fungus too easily.

ZilyZily thanks so much for your response. I have read the links you provided and think that it could be thripes (yikes!) and not spider mites. I've taken some more Mexican Sage leaf pictures as you requested. I would be very thankful to know your thoughts.

As for the roses, we've had them for 18 years and never had a problem. With the timing of both the sage and the roses succumbing to something makes me think it could be the same culprit. Guess we've just be lucky all these years that the roses have been healthy with just water a some occasional fertilizer.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Geez, it is my amateur opinion that you have the crude and have it bad. I have grown Salvia leucantha and it was always an easy plant for me. But do not feel bad, I have killed so many other kinds of plants.

Well, now I see what I thought was powdery mildew at first look, which is what I would get on my roses along with rust, but then I enlarged your photos and you have a lot of brown spots which usually means a fungus leaf spot disease but your spots look odd. Then I thought of downy mildew which gets areas looking like that on the underside.

I think you have both, fungal and insect activity. For sure you have something. LOL

The good news is spring, so cut that plant back hard, Hopefully that will get rid of a lot. So carefully bag it all and dispose of fast.

I wonder if Neem oil would help with both insects and fungus. I would try that first once it was cut way back. It is a pain to use if the plant is lush for you need to hit all surfaces, front and back to get suffocate everything.

If you bag a few leaves showing all the problems, in a clear plastic bag, sealed, and bring it to a really good nursery, they will look with a loop and see any bugs and be able to ID the fungus. They then will recommend treatment. Bring those rose leaves in another sealed clear plastic bag too.

Berkeley Horticultural Nursery is a fav for getting advice. But also East Bay Nursery on San Pablo is great too.

I just had another thought. Vestia is a member here who is a professional plant person. He may wander by to opine but if not dmail him the link to get his opinion.

Oh, I will do it for you in case you are not familiar with our dmail.

This message was edited Apr 8, 2022 1:09 PM

Zily Zily thanks for your additional email. I am not familiar with dmail on this site. I did go to a local nursery and the guy thought it was powdery mildew on the sage, but I don't think so as, whatever it is, is killing the plant. I did also go to East Bay Nursery and they thought it was either thrips or mites.

So I have cut the one in the ground way back, removing all apparent affected branches/leaves (see photos). I am going to also dowse both sides of leaves and branches with neem oil. Hopefully it can be saved. I went ahead and threw out the one that was in the pot and too far gone.

As to the roses, I am cutting off affected branches/leaves and treating it with Monterey Fruit Tress Spray Plus (active ingredient: Pyrethrins and neem oil) and then will also fertilize it and see what happens.

I so appreciate your help and perspective. If you and/or Vestia have any additional thoughts. Please let me know. Many thanks!

I did dmail Vestia but he (maybe a she) must be busy. He is very helpful and knowledgeable and might yet check in.

I think your problems this year might be because of our weather.  Hopefully next year your garden will return with all the problems behind you.

I do think you have more than 1 thing going on.  Neem oil supposedly works on all those problems we mentioned.  You need to hit them a few times with the Neem oil.

Good luck!!

Thanks ZilyZily. I think you are right and I will keep at it with the neem oil. Thanks fo reaching out to Vestia on my behalf.

May your garden be abundant and verdant!

Vestia dmailed me and agrees with all.

Thanks very much to both of you for your help, which is helping me take action. The rest is up to nature. Really appreciate your kindness in responding so thoroughly.

It looks like the powdery mildew. It ruined my mustard greens a few months ago. I don’t know much about plants, so you may have a totally different issue. Good luck!