On Pistil's suggestion I'm starting a thread to share experiences with rock gardens in climates not typically associated with traditionally alpine plants. There must be plenty of heat/humidity tolerant plants of small stature which would look great in a rock garden. I'm just trying to figure out which ones. Last year, I started trying some 'pseudo-rock gardens' in fairly large containers, for several reasons - 1, so I could control the soil drainage; 2, so I could protect them from the deer/rabbits/groundhogs; & 3, so I could place them on a large deck by the house which is about the only area of full sun in my yard. I left the containers out all winter, so I pretty much stuck with plants at least a zone hardier than mine. Lots of failures, but frankly a surprising number of survivors. It will become clearer within a couple weeks re: overwintering success.
As for Dudley Neville, I've killed several of them over the years.
They wilt with the first steamy summer day.
Too bad, because it's a nice looking plant.
Rock gardening in non-alpine climates
Here's a partial listing of successes and failures.
I have multiple small dianthus species, all of which are doing really well.
Ditto for many pulsatilla species - but most are turning out to be too big for my containers.
On the other hand, more classic 'alpines' aren't thriving so well.
I planted several edraianthus species, only E montenegrinus is hanging on (barely).
Androsace species are about 50/50, but the survivors look awfully sad,
so not sure if they'll perk up with maturity or give up the fight. A couple are two years old and despite ragged foliage they bloomed beautifully last summer. So time will tell.
Arabis androsacea and A bryoides are alive, but I sure hope spring perks them up.
Erodium chrysanthum is thriving, but again turns out to be too big for my planters.
I took these pictures just now - unfortunately dusk lighting so focus is poor.
First for the thriving: #1 Dianthus La Bourboule #2 Pulsatilla grandis #3 Erodium chrysanthum.
Last 2 are examples of the struggling: #4 Arabis androsacea #5 Androsace studiosorum
Here is a situation I need some advice about.
Here is a struggling Arabis bryoides.
In the middle of the plant, it looks like moss is growing.
Should I get rid of it? If so, can it easily be picked off?
In my climate, I learned the hard way to always pull moss off of my plants. Otherwise, the moss slowly expands and covers over the desired plant, slowly killing it. Alternately, with a large plant, it grows in the crook of the branches and keeps the area wet and vulnerable to disease. I pick it out by hand since I don't like using chemicals, so I don't know what to advise for a good brand of moss remover.
Thanks, ML. I'll pluck it off.
I notice lots of my experimental rock garden plants have some moss.
Seems odd, since these plants are specifically planted in a sharply draining mix.
And they're in nearly full sun. My plants in the garden aren't particularly affected by moss, so it seems weird to me.
That seemed weird to me too, perhaps there were some dormant moss spores or seeds in the mix you used.
Oh wow, Wee, I've been looking at the alpines also and wondering if they can be grown in my yard!
My guess is the dianthus will be your best bet.
Please keep us posted with your little flowers.
I have a big area of rocks that is for erosion control. I've been looking for plants to grow among the rocks.
Are you mostly focused on Alpine plants?
Well I went out this afternoon to do a bit of yardwork, and mostly to take some photos (including my Seattle rock/clay garden plants). I hadn't been out more than 3 minutes when my young neighbor showed up. He loves to do yardwork with me so my plan immediately turned into "cut back everything" since he likes to use clippers. We worked for 2 hours, then it was too gloomy for photos. I have upped his rate this year to $1 per hour.
Anyway, about the non-alpine rock garden.
I have had poor success with dianthus, not sure but I think it may be the clay. Ditto Pulsatilla which I think I have tried 3 times, does not overwinter. Arabis lives, in a sad and diminished manner. The short Phlox subulata is a total loser. ditto Arenaria, Aubrieta. Verbena 'Homestead purple'. Tulips. Mazus reptans. Saponaria. Silene. Blue-eyed grass. Small campanulas seem either to die or become invasive. Man this is a big list of failures.
Come to think of it, perhaps it is my acid soil, I think in the Alps it is often limestone as well as "sharp drainage' in gravel. I bought a bag of limestone chips last year, and sprinkled them around some lime-lovers. Maybe I will try Pulsatilla again. They do grow wild in the mountains here.
I have considered getting a load of gravel, and making a layer 8" deep on top of my clay, like a scree pile but that seems to be a lot of work.
Hmm, let me focus on plants that DO work here in my non-alpine garden. I have plenty.
Aurinia saxatilis (Gold dust Alyssum)
Iberis sempervirens (Candytuft)
Bergenia cordifolia
Cotula 'Tiffindell Gold' is totally cute, creeps along on the surface. Now self seeding in the gravel of my walkway between pavers.
Lithodora diffusa I like 'White Star' better than 'Grace Ward' but it will climb. High.
Crocus
Iris cristata 'Abbey's Violet' survives in dry shade on slope near my rock wall. This year I will spread it around and try sun too.
Yellow-eyed grass
Heathers but most get way too tall
Eucomis I am playing around with various spp embedded in the rock walls
Erysimums (wallflowers) various, not all, are perennial.
Lavender, as long as on a slope, does just fine here in solid clay!
I have a dwarf hyssop I LOVE, about 10". Saved seeds this year. In clay, part sun.
I have encrusted saxifrage now in two spots, on edge rock wall and steep spot.
Antirrhinum hispanicum (Spanish snapdragons) are hardy, on rock wall edge bloom 8 months a year. Birder you might try these in your rocks, Spain would be hot (maybe not humid tho).
Rhododendron impeditum an "alpine" Rhody from China, is a tough survivor in Seattle, very popular for good reason.
Don't forget Lamb's Ears. Melt in winter and are hideous, now already reviving.
Sedum 'Elsie's Gold' is in dry shade under a tree. Does not flop!! Sedums are supposed to need sun? I must divide and try it in a sunnier spot.
What is most interesting about this list is how many plants I would not have thought would survive here are doing just fine. Most of them do best if near the edge of a rock wall, or on a steepish slope, so the clay does not remain soggy. Others that seemed a sure thing won't behave as perennials. Some things are supposedly for sun but do fine here in shade.
As I said, I am also playing around with my "Lime Chips" to alter the pH in the immediate vicinity of a plant.Too soon to tell.
I also now have a bag of "Chicken Grit" which is granite gravel, I thought I might make little pockets of this just behind the rocks on some walls, to try some things like Pulsatilla again.
You've got many successes Pistil. I use chicken grit to spread over seeds to prevent damp-off and I mix it with potting soil for sharper drainage enjoyed by succulents.
I love your photo with contrasting colors, especially the purple of that Crocus, does it have a name? I've just recently planted Saffron Crocus and will be harvesting and cooking with saffron this coming fall.
well I am not certain what the crocus is-
most likely
Crocus tommasinianus 'Ruby Giant' a sterile cultivar
but I have also planted Crocus vernus 'Remembrance'
and "crocus species mixture" from Van Engelen
Here is a closer photo.
Not all crocus survive here, I read that C tommasinianus is squirrel resistent, but I don't get many squirrels. I tried saffron but it did not survive after the first year:-(
Thanks Pistil, I'll look them up!
Dianthus is one of most dependable plants in my garden. They are one of the very first to bloom and the last to quit in the fall. They're very hardy for me. My soil is full of clay.
Phlox sublata and Homestead verbena do very well here.
I have Aubrieta that is sloooowly expanding. I really like it. It blooms quite early and is the most lovely shade of light red-violet. It blooms for a long time. Although it is supposed to grow in full sun, mine gets some shade. I seriously doubt it would make it in full sun through the summer here.
Saxifrage is doing nicely.
I've been looking at Pulsitilla vulgaris for several years wondering if it would make it in my area. I'm wondering where Wee got this plant and the others that were mentioned. I'm thinking a catalog. I have considered growing it from seed but from my research, it can be challenging. Seedaholic says anywhere from 30 to 180 days to germinate. Tom Clothier says fluctuating temperatures which could be winter sown. If anyone has had experience growing this plant from seed, I'd be interested in the results. I haven't been able to find it in the catalogs until this year. High Country Gardens is offering it. It has a tap root.
Aurinia saxatilis limps along for me although I really like it. Iberis semperivrens would do better if I moved it to another location. It doesn't have room to strut its stuff. That's another plant I enjoy. It flowers early for a long time. The white on the very pretty bright green leaves looks so pristine. Sometimes, if we get enough rain, it will bloom again in the fall. It's not Autumn Beauty that is supposed to bloom in the fall.
I adore Erysimum allionii. The first year I had this plant it bloomed from March to June. Wow, where you can get a plant like that? It's only downfall is the fact it's a biennial. It did re-seed miserly for me. I started some more seed in February. It's growing quite happily. However, it's the wrong time of year to get any yardage out of it. I will start some more seed in late August.
Lavender does well for me, but many around here have trouble with it dying out in the winter.
I grow almost all of these on a slope and all are in rather poor clay soil.
I'm considering Linum narbonense (perennial) that blooms the first half of the spring/summer and Analagis monelli (annual that re-seeds) that blooms the last half of the season to have nice blue flowers all season. I'm thinking about planting these among my rocks and also around my roses. I'm also thinking about growing Eschscholzia californica (California poppies {annual, re-seeds}) along with the blue mentioned flowers in the rock area. If anyone has ideas, suggestions, comments on this blue flower and poppy plant, I would appreciate your input.
Pistil, it looks to me like you grow a lot of successful plants. I always enjoy your comments.
Wow, you guys, lots of info - I'm not sure I can keep up on work-nights, at least.
Birder, I'm sure you can grow pulsatilla - it's pretty reliable in regular garden soil.
Just wants some sun and consistent moisture/good drainage,
but doesn't require the super-sharp drainage of others.
I'm planting most of my guys in totally artificial soil in containers.
Some might do OK in regular garden soil, esp the pulsatillas which seem very vigorous.
I have a couple overly-vigorous plants incl Minuartia verna and Pulsatilla calabra which are overtaking their respective pots. I'll have to move them to their own places this spring - they obviously don't like to share.
I've got a couple Linum's hanging in there - L perenne, L naborense, L alpinum ssp julicum.
I also have an erysimum (E pulchellum) which seems to be doing fine.
If any of these guys bloom this spring, I'll be sure to post.
Wee, thanks for the info on the pulsatilla. I think it would look good with the spring bulbs-daffodils. Do you grow it in sun? Shade? Part of each? I couldn't find anything on P. calabra.
Here's some information and a few pictures on Erysimum allionii that may be interesting:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1365230/#b
The reason you couldn't find any info on Pulsatilla calabra is because it doesn't exist - oops! I meant Potentilla calabra. Sorry for the confusion. My pulsatilla is in sun, though on my wooded lot, that means full sun for only part of the day. Pulsatilla vulgaris is very reliable and comes in several differed colored cultivars, native is a maroon color. One of my favorite flowers. Everything about the plant is wonderfully hairy!
Good to know about the Pulsatilla v. I've been admiring this plant for a long time.
Because Mo is mostly clay, is yours in good loam with good drainage? That's prime real estate in my yard!
birder I would like to see some photos of your rocks?
I grew California Poppies when I lived a mile from here. The grew and seeded about on beach sand. Now that I have clay, they don't survive at all. If I was you I would buy some seeds (whatever colors you prefer but they often seem to revert to the orange) and just sprinkle them about in the rocks. If they like it they will colonize.
I have an Erysimum allionii, this will be year 4 if it comes back, I hope it does. I have some other Erysimum that are more perennial, you may want to try various kinds-they don't call them "Wallflowers" for nothing!
#1,2,4 Here are the variegated wallflowers The third pic is in mid-October, you can see they have been flowering for 5 months, spikes getting very tall!
#4 Eucomis at the bottom of the rock wall on slope in clay.
#5 Spanish Snapdragons and Eucomis in/on rock wall
Here are my rocks. This is about an 18" slope high to low. It's 24" X 5 ' at its widest point.The lowest point is at the bottom of the picture. The dark area in the first picture is a drainage grate. Water runs down from the street at the very top of the picture with pretty good force in a strong rain.
The second picture shows the size of the rocks.
This is where I'm thinking about putting the Linum n. and the Anagallis m. and the Ca. Poppies. (Sorry, I don't want to try the scientific name!)
Right now, we spray all season for weeds. Note the weeds. :( If weeds can grow there, surely some sort of flower could?
Gosh. Did I kill this thread?
I gather since you can post, it must be fixed?
I am still here, hoping Monday will improve things, took several days to rediscover this thread...
Things are really Spring-like here now, blooms everywhere.
Can't recall the name of this one, It's a European Alpine which has survived one winter here and is now blooming. It's fabulous!
Weerobin- I paid $$$ for the rock wall, my house is on a slope, and I decided to just "bite the bullet" and have some permanent work done, I was afraid to let anyone mow for fear of tumbling down on the wet grass and losing some toes to the power mower.
Birder- I have been looking at your photos. It actually looks more like a rock lined drainage ditch, and your mention of the water runoff seems to indicate this. A drainage ditch has a whole other set of issues. I would guess in Missouri, you get spring rains, summer thunderstorms, fall rains, and winter snowmelt, so it could basically flood at any time. This may mean you need to plant species that can tolerate wet roots, with droughts in between. Prairie plants often tolerate some seasonal flooding, but many are very tall and might look too weedy.
The California poppies might do best-sprinkle seeds every month or so, they grow and flower very quickly (I used to have them when I gardened on beach sand but they do not tolerate my clay here), they will probably drown when submerged, but then you could have a new crop. They are so bright it does not take many blooming plants to brighten up an area!
I have a similar area, that has standing water in winter-spring, then dries out in summer to a brick-like consistency. Last year I planted a Rodgersia 'Fireworks', a corkscrew rush, a Toad lily (Tricyrtis 'Blue Wonder', Bloody Sorrel, and a few other things I thought might survive such a tough location (a previous attempt with a Trollius failed). All of these have survived! I did water some last summer, it's near the hose so I made an effort.
Below are some photos I took at a local shopping mall, see what they planted in a seasonal drainage ditch. I think it looks pretty good! around here there was a big push a few years ago for people to plant "Rain Gardens" in swales that get runoff water seasonally. They even tried it in some public places. Many of these were later torn out, they were hard to keep weeded and so many plants could not tolerate the flooding they were mostly a weedy muddy mess. I think this is why so many people just put rocks there.
I can't say if everything is fixed and I can't determine for how long, but apparently something's fixed for now.
There's plenty of clay in my yard and I'd like to add the Delosperma and many more succulents do well here.
Birder, I just came back from a brief tour of Plant Delights Nursery in Raleigh. He has a bunch of similar 'drainage' swales (?not sure it's the right term) which he has converted in to an interesting dual type of planting. He has built up the sides to create berms with interspersed big rocks where he has drainage loving rock garden plants, then he has bog loving plants at the bottom (pitcher plants, sweet flag, etc). I thought it might be an idea for you.
Here's a picture of my Pulsatilla vulgaris growing in routine (obviously untended) soil in my jungle of a yard. Seems to be doing fine with no coddling.
Mipii, I gave up on Delosperma many years ago, but re-ordered one to try again this year. I blamed my prior lack of success on our clay soil, but planned to try it in a situation with better drainage. We'll see.
Your European Alpine is fabulous Pistil, so is your Pulsatilla Wee. I've been meaning to try that little hairy beast but haven't yet.
Here's my Aubrieta, I love this one too...sorry this is the best photo I have though.
Oh, lots of good comments. Yes, my rocks are a drainage ditch. I wanted something to grow there besides weeds. We have to spray them w. an herbicide several times through the growing season, and they're even growing in the winter. Bleh!
I DO appreciate the good comments and suggestions. I've thought of sedums, delosperma, the Linum n. and Analagis m. that re-seeds and blooms quickly. I thought the Ca. Poppies would be fun if they would take root. They could bloom in the spring, but I'm thinking it would be a spring show. I've also thought of portulaca (moss rose).
I don't know if anything will take root. And yet, the weeds take root in the area.
"Drainage loving rock plants" I'm wondering what the names of those plants were. I could probably use a few more big rocks for more interest.
High Country Gardens has some beautiful Delospermas.
I love the Pulsatilla! Thanks for the picture. I'm going to get me a couple of them! :)
I weeded my Aubrieta today while we had a nice very early spring day. There's some little weed that grows prostrate and has very small leaves and tiny blue flowers about 1/8" wide. They sneak in amongst the Aubrieta. I have to be careful not to pull out the Aubrieta.
Pistil, the plants you mentioned are for shade. My area is full, hot, all day sun. I'm looking for short plants. I agree tall plants would look weedy.
So, what do you think of the Linum, Agagalis and Ca. Poppies? Or, does anyone have other ideas. As you can see, I've done nothing with this ditch but try to control the weeds. I'd like to put something in that is prostrate or short.
Birder, I love all your choices, including a few bigger rocks along with pockets of smaller ones like Wee suggested. I was going to say Portulaca too, I always have some in containers, it thrives on neglect and readily self sows. I'd also recommend Prunella vulgaris and the dwarf Yarrow's.
What a fun project to have.
Birder I'm trying to figure out the same thing - small statured plants (which I think usually qualifies them as rock garden plants) which can tolerate our climate. I've gotten ideas (and plants) from the web sites of several nurseries which specialize in rock garden plants - Siskiyou, Wrightman Alpines, Laporte Avenue Nursery are a few. Several others quit doing mail order but still have informative websites with pictures (Wild Ginger is one which comes to mind). And High Country Gardens specializes in sun-loving plants which tolerate dry conditions. What most of these nurseries don't mention is whether the plants can stand our sweltering summer humidity with high night temperatures, regardless whether the ground is sharply draining or not. If you wait a few years, I might have some suggestions for you, as that's the exact experiment I've been doing with dozens of rock garden plants - just trying them out. So far, way too soon to have learned much...
Thyme might look nice there - sun loving, very small - maybe too small for what you want? The creeping thymes come in all sorts of varieties and would look nice scrambling around your rocks.
Come to think of it, most other herbs love sun and sharp drainage - you could plant an herb garden!
Birder you are right my plants are in morning sun only, with the house on the west, so I picked plants that could tolerate shade. It was more the idea of plants that could tolerate periodic immersion that I was talking about.
Anyway, I thought a bit more about this. I thought of some of the Amsonia species, there are several native to the east and midwest, and I think some are prairie plants which might tolerate seasonal flooding. Most would be too tall for the spot, but I have ordered 'Georgia Pancake' which is only 6" tall, and I have 'Blue Ice',18" tall, which tolerates my clay.
So I looked them up in MOBOT, which should have plants recommended for your region. Lo and behold, I found all kinds of essays and lists about "rain gardens" and bioswales, which is what you have I think. Here is a link to a list of suitable plants-they have two lists, one for moist soils, one for dry, and within the lists they even separate out which are for the bottom of the ditch and which for the sides!
Well take a look. They do not talk about annuals at all, I wonder why.
If you want any Carex 'Ice Dance' I could send you a box, it is a very tough plant.I have it in dry shade but apparently it might be suitable for your spot too!
http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/sustainability/sustainability/sustainable-living/at-home/rainscaping-guide/select-plants.aspx
Pistil what a great resource you found - It's embarrassing that I didn't think of it.
MoBot is such a great resource - I should take advantage of it more often.
I love the term 'bioswale' - I was skating on thin ice calling your situation a swale. I feel better now that MoBot has validated it.
On slightly other subject, be aware that Pulsatilla vulgaris comes in a variety of other colors than the native purple - here's a picture of a red one in my yard. There are pink ones ('rosea') and white ('alba') too.
Edited to give the Pulsatilla vulgaris cultivar name, 'Rote Glocke'.
This message was edited Mar 7, 2016 9:26 PM
I go to Mo Botanical Garden's website quite often to research various plants. Thanks for the information about bioswales. I will surely read the information.
I go to MBG for monthly garden tasks. It's great information. I put in a google search for words like March garden tasks Mo. Botanical Gardens, and it will bring up that month's tasks.
I am really bummed this evening. I have been talking about the Pulsatilla and finding out first hand (thanks, Wee!) if this plant is suitable for my garden. I commenced to order it from HC Gardens, and they are sold out! So, I waited too long. I can't find it anywhere else. Bluestone has a red one, but I wanted the purple. If anyone knows where I can get some, please let me know. I guess I will have to wait another year to get this plant. I have looked into growing it from seed, but it seems rather a long drawn out process that requires stratification. So, it would be a good candidate for WS, but for me, it's too late to start WS. Again, I'll have to wait to sow it from seed until next year.
I would kind of like annuals for the all season bloom, but really, I think I'm lucky to find any kind of plant that will grow in the bioswale. Anything will be better than the weeds. I have decided to get a few more large rocks.
Well I know little about the Pulsatillas, except that I really wanted them and can not keep them alive here ;-(
However, I like looking at plant catalogs in the winter- here is a place that has several lavender or purple Pulsatillas, plus all kinds of other interesting plants, of course.
http://wildgingerfarm.com/plant-list/plants-p/pulsatilla-turczaninovii.html
I used to order from Wild Ginger all the time; unfortunately they quit doing mail order this year.
I found lavender pulsatillas listed at Arrowhead Alpines and Far Reaches Farm.
I found white and pink ones elsewhere - I might have to do some more shopping myself...
Funny thing about California poppies. The only time I had success with them was in hard baked clay. I've never been able to grow a single one in my well draining yard now. And Pulsatillas, love them but they act like biennials for me. I've never got a seed to germinate either.
Bird, I've worked with rain gardens before. Not for myself but with the extension program. Basically, we dug out the area, filled it with a layer of large rocks, then smaller ones, fabric, then garden soil and compost and planted. I never went back to see how it did. We do have a large one in town and that looks good still.
I've also dealt with an area in front of my own house by mixing stonedust with 3/8 stone and laid it down 3" thick. That absorbed the water very well. However, I don't have a drain to worry about and I don't plant in it. I drive on it. If I built it up with soil, I'm sure it would support grass.
Then there is something called gravel stabilizers and you can fill them with soil or gravel. I've never used them yet but looked into it. Here is one and there are youtube videos on installing them as well. http://www.amazon.com/Core-Path-Stabilizer-Attached-Membrane/dp/B013KOTO40
Here are a few pictures I took at Wave Hill. (Unfortunately, not my yard).
1. Kenilworth Ivy growing out of a rock wall - I had this plant once and it lasted a few years.
2 & 3 Kent Beauty oreganum - tried this one twice but doesn't always overwinter.
4 A shot of the alpine house - I guess these are rain lillies - never tried them.
That Kenilworth ivy is cute - I've never tried it.
Neither Kent Beauty nor zephyranthes will overwinter here either.
I've tried both in pots overwintering in garage, but they look awful.
My Pulsatilla grandis in full bloom starting today - good timing!
Woo, I love the pot in pic #2.
I wish I could grow pulatilla! I just love the look of the whole plant and all the fuzz! If I can get to NYBG this year, I'll have to bring back some photos of their collection. They have it planted along a pond with a gravel scree on top, next to pitcher plants and primroses if I remember right. It is in the Rock Garden but I guess that qualifies as Bog Garden.
The kenilworth ivy was a hitchhiker in my garden. It is a spreader and it grew all along the foot of that wall at Wave Hill but wasn't so aggressive for me. It did last a couple of years but it was out competed and disappeared. I would love to get a start of it again.
Robin, that is a cute pot, not one I've seen for sale. They do have a shop but everything is very expensive to me.
We have Kenilworth Ivy naturalized here too, It seeds about but is easy to yank out, not a real bother and cute in a rock wall. Come to think of it, Birder might try one in her rocks. If happy it will seed about on it's own.
So funny, Loretta, about your Calif poppies in clay. Possibly the difference is the many months of sogginess we have here, where for you it just held some more water that was needed?
I can't keep Oregano either, grow poorly, then does not survive the winter. I love the 'Kent Beauty' variety.
I've been absent from the website. I am teaching a class called Alternative Seed Sowing Methods this coming Saturday. I had to take some time off to finalize my slide presentation. I'm bringing stuff too. I feel like I'm in 3rd grade again with "Show and Tell" :)
Wee, the Pulsatilla grandis is beautiful. From what I read and observed from pictures, the P. grandis has a bigger bloom, more lavender, and the petals spread apart.
Well, I've been giving my situation some thought. I think I'm going to try the two blue flowers I mentioned above. One of them blooms in Spring and the other blooms mid-summer into fall. So, I would have blue flowers all season. I would like to try the Ca. Poppies, but is it too late here to sow Ca. Poppy seeds??? At any rate Ca. Poppies would fizzle out by the last of May. I need to come up with another plant for the rest of the summer besides the blue.
I'm also going to get some more big rocks.
I like the delosperma, but it looks to me like it would melt out on those rocks? I've never grown it. If I find some plants locally, I may try them. I think I'll try portulaca too. I want the plants to stay low: 12 inches or less.
I'm afraid ivy would get out of control in my yard.