Prior to the 21st century, it seems that a daylily that was considered a "breeder" would have many registered kids. However, I've noticed that since about the year 2000, the numbers of registered children out of the newer daylilies are very low. Yes, I know the older ones have more children simply due to the time factor. But, it seems like the breeders quickly jump to the next "fad/style" daylily and are using numerous "seedlings" as the parents of their new intros. I was always under the impression that if a seedling was used in hybridizing, the breeder would "know" that seedling's heritage. However, I seldom see that heritage mentioned. More than likely, what I now see is (as an example): Bachman seedling or Gossard seedling. Any thoughts on this anybody? Is it just my imagination?
Registered Kids of Newer Daylilies
Jamie Gossard seem to be the only one that I have seen that list the lineage. I believe that it take so much work to go thru all of that. The latest and the greatest is what seem to sell the most on the LA and elsewhere. You need a lot of help to have a decent size operation and keep up with all the details. There are some that don't list the parents at all. That frustrates me to a point, but if the plant is to my liking I would consider it. The whole idea is to come up with something unusual that will generate interest and income.
Mike Huben is probably next to Jaimie in this regards. I am sure that others have records that they don't share with the public or don't have the time.
Mike: Is there truly a difference in "seedling" VS. Unknown? How can a DL have UNK X UNK?
Occasionally a pod is misplaced, but...??? Just curious. And, yes, I love Gossard's method!
Seedling is "usually" a known cross that in most cases doesn't have all the traits for a good plant or is similar to a sib which hinders registration.Nevertheless it possesses traits that the hybridizer is trying to improve upon or pass on. ukn x ukn is simply a lost tag or something that just got lost in all the shuffle which is easy to do from my limited experience. Or quite possible a seed that just got tossed around by birds or the wind or animals that ended up in the wrong place. Some just don't keep records because of all the hard work involved.
I guess my "opinion" is, if you are going to hybridize, you should take the time to keep records. (it's the old 'no job is done until the paperwork is done') I can certainly see a lost tag for the pollen parent. They really are hard to keep up with. But what about the pod parent?
What the heck? (Unless it's a stray seed) [Yeah, it's just more whining on my part]
I really like to know who the parents are too. For myself, I don't find it all that hard keeping records of the parents because I only have about 350 daylilies and not all of them are fertile. But, large scale daylily gardens that have thousands evidently don't want to bother. When I plant seeds, I always mark the cross with a plant sign. That way I will know what it is. When you hybridize and tag the flower, the cross is usually marked also so I think the unknown x unknown is really because they don't want to share the cross.
Yes, hemlady, I wondered that same thing. And what about the Breeder's name seedling? What the heck is that?! (I won't mention what picture "rolls around in my brain" when I see that one.) I do know of one breeder (not huge, but fairly well known name, who just didn't want to be bothered with it...) She has some very nice, full form DLs, but most say UNK X UNK.
I like to know the parents..period. I wont buy seeds if they have an unknown in them. How else could you predict plant habits and characteristics??. I grow many of my own seedlings, that I havent the foggiest idea who or what they are from. Im not growing them to sell tho.
When you go and see some of the bigger gardens, it is easy to see how they just cant keep up with parents. They are out there dabbing thousands of flowers a day. Doesnt mean I like it tho.
@ gardenglory: I agree totally.
Cataddict, I think I know who the breeder is you are talking about. She very seldom lists parentage. I only have 2 of her plants, both are tets and both are fertile. I notice that she states in her auctions that they are fertile and so far I can confirm mine are.
As someone else has pointed out, sometimes seeds go astray. I collected 15 volunteer seedlings this spring, and for all but maybe one of them I am having to guess the pod parent. Since those pod parents were used with several pollen parents, I would have to register any deserving seedling as UNK x UNK, as you can't really register a daylily as being from "probably THIS parent" x UNK.
Sometimes the cross WAS marked on the pod parent, initially, but then the paper clip fell off, or the tag got lost/eaten or the writing faded. (I gave up on paper tags years ago because snails were eating the written face - seriously!) That results in POD PARENT x UNK. In a similar vein, sometimes the color fades on the clip, so you have the possibility of two different pollen parents - which leads to another case of POD PARENT x UNK. (Hint: Don't use red, orange-red, or shades of pink for similar pollen parents. Ask me how I know.) Finally, sometimes you go to pollinate a bloom and see that the bees have already done the job. You might be curious as to what the result would be - especially if it has been a very difficult pod parent for you. Another case of POD PARENT x UNK! (The Reinkes, if I recall correctly, used to label these bee pods as "x Chance", which I thought was charming.)
Sometimes, too, records are - or were - kept, but then get lost. I have a seedling whose identity is unknown, because it came from a bed which was planted during a time when I was going through a serious illness with months of treatment. Although it was tagged originally with a plastic label, critters here tend to snap off, or outright carry off, the labels - and I did not make a map of the seedlings (and I sometimes forget to record every planted seedling or cross in a notebook or file somewhere).
Come to think of it, I have *another* small group of seedlings that are similarly unknowns, due to lost labels and no mapping, also due to medical reasons (that time it was two separate injuries requiring two surgeries and lots and lots of rehab - a year in all). I am fairly sure that *some* of those seedlings have a certain parent *somewhere* in the background - as either pod/pollen parent or as a grandparent - but again, you can't register that.
I should point out that apart from critters damaging or carrying off labels (I had been using plastic labels up until now, but am reluctantly seeing the need for something more critter-proof), the writing on the seedling labels can fade, even when using pretty good garden markers. (I don't like pencil, and I can't seem to write finely or legibly using paint pens.) So one can in fact have an intact label, but if the writing hasn't been renewed for a couple to few years....there's another case of uncertain identity.
Finally, here's another possibility. Sometimes after a couple of years you decide that there was nothing worth keeping in a seedling bed, so you start to yank things out, starting with the labels. Maybe you get interrupted, and get back to the job a week or two later (after the labels have gone out in the trash - and no, the seedling bed wasn't mapped (though once you start digging then maps become less useful), though you do have a vague idea of where seedlings by certain parents were. You get partway through digging up/clearing the bed, and you discover something interesting about the scapes that one seedling is putting up, and you change your mind, and rescue that one seedling. You know that in that general area you had seedlings from parents A, B, and C, and in at least one case (set of parents) you also did reverse crosses. When the seedling blooms (again) you *may* be fortunate enough to have a very good idea as to what the parents (probably) were, but you may not know which was pod and which was pollen parent! (Yes, I have one of *those* seedlings too!)
So it's not just laziness or secret keeping that prevents some hybridizers from listing the parentage (unless you expect all hybridizers and pollen dabbers to not only tag crosses and label seedlings, but also MAP the seedling field and record how many seedlings of which cross ultimately made it into the ground - which I would expect to be really onerous once you get up there into a large number of seedlings).
While I would generally *prefer* to know the parentage of a daylily, myself, if it has traits that I want (and none that I particularly do NOT want), that would not necessarily stop me from getting said plant - especially if it had some rare and unusual trait. 'Starry Day' was registered as a tetraploid of unknown parentage (although those of us working with the polys early on quickly determined by breeding behavior that it was in fact a dip). I bought it solely because of its polymerous trait; its parentage was immaterial to me, as polymerous daylilies were very rare back then (and not all that common now, either, particularly with respect to the tets).
So if the daylily has what you want, don't be deterred by a lack of registered parentage.
(Fwiw, I do appreciate and respect the detailed work that Mike Huben, Jamie Gossard, and certain other hybridizers have done to record and publicize the parentage of their daylilies.)
Pplymerous, well said!!!
Very good read Polymerous. Thanks for your input, makes total sense to me.
Re-reading this, another possibility for UNK parentage occurred to me.
A few years ago I ordered a certain daylily on the LA. A short while after it came, the seller contacted me and offered a refund, as apparently he discovered the wrong plant had been dug and sent. (I declined the offer, but stupidly did not ask him at that time what he thought *had* been sent.)
Last summer the NOID bloomed, and it is a nice sculpted peachy pink with a gold edge. I contacted the seller this spring, sent him pictures, and asked if he had any idea what it was. (Yeah, I know, there are tons of pinks with gold edges.) He responded with a name, but every picture that I have seen of that daylily does not show sculpting (or at least, not unmistakeably), and sculpting is not mentioned in descriptions of this daylily, whereas the bloom on this thing definitely does have sculpting (but not extremely so).
I somewhat like the daylily (and it is the only sculpted one that I have) but it could open better. I tried a couple of crosses on it last season, and I suppose I will try again this coming season.
If I get anything good or interesting from it? You got it..."UNK x pollen parent"!
(And the same could be said for any of the NOIDs gracing our gardens, which we think are worthy of mothering offspring.)
NOID-SC1
Well I have 2 daylilies that look very similar to your noid.
#1 American Freedom
#2 How Beautiful Heaven Must Be
I have no idea what your UNK daylily is. (I used to be fairly good at identifying them) It reminds me f Stamile's 'Taos'. Hemlady, both of your pics are beautiful. But they seem to be much more ruffled than the NOID.
Thanks for the pictures and ID attempt, hemlady. It is difficult with so many look-alike daylilies to arrive at an ID.
I had 'American Freedom' here at one time, but as I recall the bloom here had a definite orange or coral cast, and perhaps less clarity, than the NOID.
I also have a pot of 'How Beautiful Heaven Must Be', but it has not bloomed for me yet. The bloom in your picture does look somewhat more ruffled than the bloom on my NOID, though.
Just a side note. How Beautiful Heaven Must Be is stunning. The first time it bloomed for me I literally stopped my car to find out who it was. One of my favorites.
Gary
Polymerous, that's a nice noid regardless !
Yes, it is (or would be if it would open a bit better here).
It's surprising how sometimes the NOIDs you mistakenly receive, or the gift plants that you get, are better than the plants you otherwise bought or picked yourself.
(It's also surprising, too, how sometimes the gift plants that you get have such a high $ value to them, at least going by Lily Auction and/or the hybridizer site prices. Last year I received Curt Hanson's 2011 intro 'From This Moment On' as a gift on a Lily Auction purchase. I finally got around to looking it up on Curt's site this spring, and just about fell over to see that it is listed there for $100. I didn't record at the time who gave it to me, and I have to wonder if I received it at least partly because (at least that is my perception) yellow is not a popular color. I'm happy about it, though - I like yellow daylilies just fine, I like tall daylilies too (FTMO is registered at 43"), and being Very Late it will extend my season. I can't wait to see this one bloom!)
Yellow are my favorite daylilies. They dont fade in the sun and hold their color.
Dutch Yellow Truffle...a favorite and the first to bloom in the garden again this year.
Gardenglory, that's a nice one.
Polymerous, I agree on the unexpected plant..
I have added several yellows. I move Look Here Mary 11", next to the driveway so that I can admire these big blooms and the consistent rebloom. I also got the late Mr Whatley's Solar Music last season and I have Ram coming this spring. Parabola is next. Got Jamie Gossard's One Above You last season to add some height net to the fountain in the front.
Continuing the total thread drift...
If yellow is good, then very big or fluffy double yellow bloom is better?
I mostly agree with that - though I think the exception can be made for small (not miniature!), round and ruffled yellow if it comes with high bud count and good branching - especially if rebloom is part of the package.
My tallest yellow (actually a polychrome) is 'Sears Tower', whose registered height is just 2" shorter than 'One Above You'. It never gets that tall here, probably because I have about 12 fans jammed into a 3 gallon or so pot. (I would like to get it into the ground at some point, but my garden has a lot of shade, and I can't seem to find just the right sunny (more like partial sun) spot for it.)
Polymerous, I got Sears Tower in the fall of 2011 I believe. In 2012 it got up to 39". Last year it got up to 65". Mine is in the ground. One Above You arrived last spring.
I like Sear's Tower (for a yellow) and I love almost all of Hanson's DLs. One of my favorite yellows that I've ever seen (pictures do no do it justice) is Bell's 'Annie Armstrong'. It tends to take my breath away when it blooms.
Cataddict, I looked up AA and you are right, it is a nice flower. This pic doesn't do justice to Lemon Knockout.
Four Play. I bet Polymerous grow this one.
No, I don't grow 'Four Play'. I don't remember why I did not get it around the time that it was introduced, but it may have had something to do with a diploid seedling of mine. I think that mine has bigger flowers, but percentage wise (as I recall... I haven't actually recorded percentage for a very long time) it is only something like 66% polymerous - not the 90% that 'Four Play' is.
Some time within the next few years (from when 'Four Play' was introduced), I decided to move my daylily garden (and poly hybridizing efforts) in the direction of tets, so I did not purchase any more dip polys. In fact, of the ones that I had, I got rid of all of them except 'Give Me Eight' and a couple of seedlings of mine (plus one from a Robin friend).
This spring, for a variety of reasons, I bought some Huben cultivars. I think that I am going to play with crossing my yellow seedling with some of them, just to see what I get. .
Polymerous, I love that seedling. I have a nice seedling out of Give Me Eight X Beautiful Edgings that bloomed for the first time last summer. I am excited to see what it does this summer. As you can see it is standing tall above the two foot plastic chicken wire enclosure. I am sure the height is coming from the registered 48" GME.
Which of Mike Huben's plants did you get?
o wow....love the seedling.
Nice seedling!!!
Beautiful seedling from GME! What is the percentage of polymerous blooms? (I still have both GME and also BEAUTIFUL EDGINGS, but I never thought to cross those two. The edging on BE *is* beautiful, but it fades pretty quickly here, and is gone by mid-morning unless it is shaded.)
Incoming Huben plants: TWIST AGAIN (I am going to cross that onto my yellow dip poly seedling shown above, to hopefully give it some more height and help it rebloom), FROM DARKNESS COMES LIGHT (as an interesting specimen plant), CLARITY OF PURPOSE and YEARNS TO BE CLOUDS (to maybe go into my Moon Garden; I may use one of those for crossing onto the seedling also, to get the height up), LET ME BE CLEAR, EARLY AND OFTEN, SNOWY STELLA (all for rebloom, though SNOWY STELLA might also end up in the Moon Garden), and WHITE AND NERDY. (DH, DD, and I are all white and nerdy, so how could I not have that last one? Lol!)
Wow, Mike! That is a very pretty seedling! I will be interested to see what it does for you this season. I have two that I just love, but they are not in an ideal location and I'm disappointed in the bud count and the number of scapes. I will move them (again) to my daughter's place and give them a few more years to settle in.
Polymerous you got a nice group there from Mike. Snowy Stella and Vanilla Stella is on my want list for long blooming whites. I also like White and Nerdy for its continuous blooms.
I bought the seeds of the seedling above on the LA a few years ago. It bloomed for the first time last year so I am expecting it to be better this year. It did poly a few times.
It sounds like you lucked out there, with the seeds.
I'm glad to hear that 'White and Nerdy' does have continuous blooms; I wasn't sure.
I have been following Mike Huben's intros for some time now. I only have two of his. Kanai Sensei and Sunshine On Clouds
'Kanai Sensei' is a little short for me. 'Sunshine on Clouds' looks nice enough... but basically with the Huben plants I am going after white (and/or clear melon or pink) and/or lots of rebloom. 'Twist Again' is an exception to the white, but that purchase was aimed at crossing it with that yellow poly seedling.
Most of my daylily collection is still tetraploid, and I will probably continue in that trend, making exceptions only for what I consider to be unusual and/or interesting and desirable traits in the diploids. (I also just got 'Ida Mae Norris' from the Lily Auction - the interest there being in the open face.)
Polymerous, I like IMN also. Mr Norris have a new seedling out of IMN that he is raving about.
Martha Edson Norris. One of his 2014 intro. http://www.ashwooddaylilies.com/seedling_page_17.htm
I've never seen IMN in real life, but I finally gave in (out of curiosity) and got it from the Lily Auction. At least it has traits that I like: large bloom of clear pink, large green throat, tall scape - and the open face is a curiosity. I hope to cross it with LET ME BE CLEAR or maybe the near-white Hubens and see what comes of it.
As for reds... I have yet to see a diploid red which has a really nice saturated color (which is one reason why I moved my daylily emphasis over to tets). Perhaps it is our climate; reds and purples of either ploidy don't hold up all that well here - and I have several that were touted to be very sunfast.
(In general, our arid climate is a drawback for daylily color. On the very rare days during bloom season when the humidity is up (because we are about to have an unseasonal rain), the daylilies are amazing... the colors are more vibrant and even the pastels seem to glow.)
Edited to comment on newly added avatar - This picture of 'Give Me Eight' was taken on one such rare humid day
This message was edited May 18, 2014 1:47 PM
Most of my reds are tets too. The only diploid I have that I really like is a very old one called Charming Heart by Wild.
What's sunfast in Z:5 may leave a lot to be desired in Z:9. You probably need more shade for those colors.