I have read tons of articles and had friends recommend bone meal for almost any type of bulb. Lately I have seen more about bone meal no longer being of any nutritional value, because the modern bone meal has had all the nutrients cooked out. I'd just like to get a few opinions, mostly about bone meal but also fertilizer in general. I see where some gardeners seem to add every nutrient imaginable to their plants, even things like daylilies, which I thought just needed dirt and water. Some opinions please!
Bone meal ? Great, good, or of no value?
The only time I add bonemeal is when I am planting. It is supposed to aid in root development.
Other fertilizers? I fertilize my clematis and roses. The other plants are on their own.
I add supertriple phosphate to aid in root formation. It does not travel well through the soil so I put it at the bottom of a planting hole, just like Carolyn does. It does the same thing.
One thing to consider about bone meal (the real deal, with bone in it) is that it tends to attract digging animals, particularly dogs, who think there is dead animal there.
I use lots of compost. I like the organic line Espoma, and use their quite inexpensive line on my roses and tomatoes. I don't like to use chemical fertilizers because they often have salts in them that can burn your plants and build up in the soil. I also give a little spray of seaweed or fish emulsion, which are used a lot in organic gardening to prevent disease, but I do that because I like being hands on.
It is definitely easy to get into overkill. Better too little than too much.
This message was edited Feb 7, 2014 7:59 PM
DonnaMack,
Supertriple phosphate, I see more and more people using that instead of bone meal, it sounds so "chemical", like it would really be strong and burn plants (just from the name). I guess if you use it right next to the plant roots it must not be like that at all. I need to study up on that, the critters digging seems to be one of the main reasons for people switching from bone meal to supertriple phosphate, but I think it probably does a much better job of supplying the nutrients also. Thanks.
Here is a bit more info I found:
"Analysis: 0-45-0. Triple Super Phosphate is an inexpensive and effective source of phosphorous that plants and bulbs need to produce healthy roots, stems and blooms. Triple Super Phosphate can aid root growth by adding a little extra phosphorus in the form of bonemeal super phosphate. Sprinkle it directly onto the rows just before planting the seeds, raking the bonemeal into the top inch of soil so it can be used by the young seedlings when they come up. A handful is about right for every six to eight square feet. The same proportion applies when being utilized for existing plants, but only apply underneath the drip line. Triple Super Phosphate won't burn the seeds or plants, as the plants will only use as much as they need. Triple super phosphate encourages plants to develop sturdy root systems, increases bloom production and strengthens fruit and bud set."
Seedfork, I understand your concern. Go to your local state Extension site and use their internal search. I recently became a certified master gardener and Illinois and I thought I knew a lot before that, but I made some definite changes in the products I used after my training, particularly systemics. Not only is your local state extension a good source of information, but you can actually call or email a master gardener with any question you may have.
I use bone meal and will be at least for awhile. Hubby bought a big bag of it.
Is the Triple Super Phosphate supposed to be better for root growth than bone meal? Or is it mostly avoided because of dogs? We have no neighborhood dogs running loose.
Donna, you have always had great success with your plants before the M G certification. I am kind of surprised you are changing your methods. I just think you have a greener thumb--regardless of what you use. There's some gardeners out there that just do it "right".
Right now, I am in the mode of if it "ain't broke--don't fix it"! :)
I went to the M G classes this fall--so MUCH information covered so quickly. I could have spent a year covering all of the information they handed out. I really enjoyed it and look forward to being involved in the program.
The single biggest reason that I became an MG is that we are provided with updates about many of the most recent findings in horticulture, rather than trying to track them down. The debate with systemics goes on and on, and part of the problem is that there are conflicting views in different scientific communities in different countries, as well as organizations and individuals with their own agendas. I get to find out what's what. It appears that systemics affect bees in plants that take up their nutrients in certain ways. They MAY be safe on roses but they are probably contraindicated on lindens. I protected my lindens in my old garden with a systemic (the Japanese beetles killed my neighbor's unprotected lindens) but I no longer have them in my new yard. And I stopped using systemics on my roses, which in my yard is a big deal, since I have 25 of them
I figured, if something new comes out and has sound science behind it, and with proper use is safe for my bee buddies, why not switch?
Old methods often work. I used to protect my bulbs with thiram, then with Permatil, and then I discovered that daffodils work just as well with less work and expense. So although I still have thiram and Permatil I don't other to use them. It's funny, because on old threads I see the first two methods. They do work, but my feeling is, if something works better, I'll move to it.
I run into MG's who got their certifications years ago but don't bother to keep up with the bulletins we are sent, and they often espouse outdated methods, and insist upon them. I have promised myself that I will never turn into them. And I am constantly dispensing information to the public at the Help Desk, the gardens at two libraries, and the owners of the two gardens I manage.
You might find your methods shifting as you become more involved with the program. The great part is that you learn the science behind the options. No more being swayed by labels, or the pseudo expert down the street!
Donna, that was very eloquently put.
One of my favorite things about gardening is learning the science behind it.
I follow along the same ideas as birder - if it is not broken, I am not going to fix it. I have used the bone meal for years and not had any problems with dogs or anything digging up my plantings. My yard is also fenced in with a 6 foot privacy fence, which may have something to do with it.
I also like a natural method for dealing with natural method for dealing with problems. Right now I use beneficial nematodes in the spring to deal with the JB's while they are still in the grub stage. This should not hurt the bees, however I am hearing mixed messages as to whether these nematodes hurt the hummingbird moths.
I have noticed a decline in the bees over the last several years and that does bother me. I have planted a number of bee magnets in my yard with the hopes to keep attracting them. Is there something else we should be doing to foster the bees? I do live in town, so having a colony in my backyard is out -
Ditto SSgardener and Carolyn22.
Donna, I agree w. all you said. I think most of us are pro wildlife and sustaining it. I have read all of this thread, and I am still wondering if bone meal is actually bad, or if it's a problem with the dogs? (since I have a big bag of it) Maybe I missed something and need to go back and read the thread again.
I applaud your endeavors and knowledge. It's great your area has you for a gardener advocate. It's why I asked you. We all like to learn. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
So, what ARE you using for your roses now to discourage J B? Last year, I just cut off all of my blooms for the month of July because I can't stand the J B.
I did find this article:
http://www.finegardening.com/how-to/qa/pros-cons-bonemeal.aspx
I also learned that ph is very important for Bone meal to have any effect, with a ph of over 7.0 the phosphorous can't be absorbed by the plants, so bone meal would be of no use.
I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with bone meal. Please forgive me if I did. It's great stuff if you don't have the digging problem. I used to use it, but my neighborhood had dogs and so I switched. I don't see any reason to discontinue use of it if animals are not an issue for you.
Carolyn - isn't it confusing? You switch from one thing to another to avoid hurting creatures, and then you read something that says that the creatures are hurt by the switch.
For japanese beetles, as well as chewers in general (something was chomping the heck out of my salvia 'Swan Lake' and I couldn't figure out what it was) I went to Platt Hill Nursery and talked to them about avoiding products with the ingredient that starts with an i and has about five syllables. It's a Bayer product. They suggested spinosad. It's a soil bacterium - so it's organic (which doesn't mean it can't be toxic or poisonous). Because it's organic it has approved use in many countries. It's actually used orally on cats and dogs to rid them of fleas. It's also short acting. I have read that it has "a good environmental profile".
The idea behind its use is to apply it when bees are not around. It was suggested that it be used early in the morning and in the evening, but my bees are early risers so I only use it at the end of the day. It has a short life. You have to apply it, so I was told, every couple of days. But if you purchase the the concentrate it's cheap - much cheaper, in fact than the Bayer rose product with which I replaced it.
I didn't know what was chewing my salvia. It was really declining. After two applications, in the evening, of spinosad, the damage stopped. I kept spraying the plant every few days and it recovered, grew back, and bloomed. I was sold.
So now I use a combo of spinosad and hand picking to get the japanese beetles. I had fewer problems with them last year, but then we did have a drought. When I was tearing out lawn in the fall I saw a few grubs, but not many.
Just as a final note - if you haven't used milky spore, you probably should not bother to do it now. I used it in my old yard and had a 90% reduction in jbs. But according to Illinois Extension, it seems that, like everything else, it built a population of milky spore resistant jbs (rather like antibiotic resistance in germs). The ones that didn't die lived to reproduce and pass their resistance to the following generations, so Milky Spore is much less effective.
Oh! That's probably a perfect example of why I became a MG. Last year's conventional wisdom is now obsolete!
Hey, everybody on this thread - your words are very interesting and though provoking. I love that!
Donna -
It is very confusing. Part of my problem is I am finding very mixed information regarding the hummingbird moth, so I am questioning the accuracy of what I am reading. Truthfully I have seen very few hummingbird moths in the last couple of years, so there may be something to it. I really don't know.
The other part of the nematodes is that apparently they also kill termites. Although we are in the NE, we do have them here and my understanding when we had a gentleman in the house to appraise it, is that we are one of the few houses in the area without termites, so there must be something to it.
I don't use Milky spore, because I have a pond with koi and it states on the package that it is not for use around fish. I used to hand pick the JB's from my roses, however my New Dawns are so large, I cannot reach them.
As for the bone meal - again, it isn't broken....... I use it when I am putting in new plants for the root development or when I am putting in new bulbs in the fall. Typically this is one of the few things I do use, as I fertilize only a few things, being my roses, clematis and waterlilies.
I did read your article Seedfork, which I did find very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.
It is confusing. Even when you search the web, you get a lot of conflicting information from so many sources.
I'm not trying to get you to stop using bone meal, so I'm puzzled about your repeated mentions of if it ain't broke...
I'm not trying to get you to use Milky Spore. I think I made it clear that it is probably useless now.
All I am doing is answering inquiries. Your gardens methods are, like everyone's, your own choices.
I didn't think I was being defensive. My apologies if I sounded that way.
This message was edited Feb 8, 2014 3:19 PM
I'm probably overly sensitive. Please don't give it another thought.
Good article. Thanks, Seedfork.