The Holly and the Ivy

Ok Jokesters-

Driving home and singing along but did not know the lyrics. Looked it up in Wikipedia, found this too. I never knew Holly and Ivy were so symbolic. "I wis" meant "I know " or "I think".

From Wikipedia:The music and most of the text was collected later by Cecil Sharp (1859–1924) from a woman in Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire, it is related to the older carol described as: "The Contest of the Ivy and the Holly", a contest between the traditional emblems of woman and man respectively.

Holly stands in the hall, fair to behold:
Ivy stands without the door, she is full sore a cold.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.

Holly and his merry men, they dance and they sing,
Ivy and her maidens, they weep and they wring.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.

Ivy hath chapped fingers, she caught them from the cold,
So might they all have, aye, that with ivy hold.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.

Holly hath berries red as any rose,
The forester, the hunter, keep them from the does.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.

Ivy hath berries black as any sloe;
There come the owl and eat him as she go.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.

Holly hath birds a fair full flock,
The nightingale, the popinjay, the gentle laverock.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.

Good ivy, what birds hast thou?
None but the owlet that cries how, how.
Nay, ivy, nay, it shall not be I wis;
Let holly have the mastery, as the manner is.


Wikipedia says:There are indications that in ancient English village life there was a midwinter custom of holding singing-contests between men and women, where the men sang carols praising holly (for its "masculine" qualities) and disparaging ivy, while women sang songs praising the ivy (for its "feminine" qualities) and disparaging holly. (More of the men's songs have been recorded and survived than the women's, as in the example here) The resolution between the two was under the mistletoe. These three plants are the most prominent green plants in British native woodland during the winter, and for this reason they earned respect from the early country-dwellers and a place in their traditions.


Jokesters-I think we need some updated new verses to counter the misogynistic tone, or maybe a whole new song?! Being female, I will "weep and wring" my chapped fingers until we have some. I read somewhere that it took our local birds a hundred years to discover they could eat English Ivy berries, now many species are spreading it everywhere.(ivy is very invasive here and is illegal to plant), so here at least the owl has company now. Resin-do they still have singing contests over there? How civilized, we just have twerking.

I knew about Cecil Sharp, but not the particulars about the feminine qualities of ivy nor the masculine ones of holly. This sounds like I should write an article about it next Christmas. (unless such an article already exists.) Very very interesting.

Carrie-I will look forward to your article! I never look in the history forum but maybe I should. I thought this was fascinating.

Yes interesting MLM, thanks for sharing.

I couldn't help but think of a children's book I read to my kids maybe once (they didn't like it very much): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Holly_and_Ivy.

Muddy, you must be one of the Jokesters MLM has spoken of.

mlm, that was amusing! I've heard the title forever but I don't have a clue what the song sounds like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57l6dSbVppM
oh THAT song.of course, but this version has all different words.

My Grandfather's first name is Holly. He may already know this song and meaning but I'll mention it to him, it's very interesting, thanks mlm.
I like this version of The Holly and Ivy. - http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Christmas+Holly+Story+Cecil+Sharp&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=D065B9AF5CDA793E4515D065B9AF5CDA793E4515 It's the third one in the lineup of the songs, anyway it has blue in the background, I believe L:ark and Spur, I'm not sure, I accidently closed the site when I was trying to bring it to the top, luckily I put it on the clipboard first.
Will

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0670062197/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

I just spent 15 minutes surfing around all these links. Then I ordered a CD of the version by the "Mediaeval Baebes" that Sally linked to. This version and Shortleaf's has the usual words we hear, that I had trouble understanding on the radio. I always loved this Christmas Carol.
Shortleaf-where was your grandfather from? Was this a British man's name? My mother's name was Evelyn, but it used to be a British man's name before they started naming girls Evelyn. I think that happened to a lot of names. Ones that come to mind include Ashley, Cameron, Dylan, Vivian, Meredith, Madison, Lauren and Marion (John Wayne's real name!). It never seems to go the other way though. Altho Johnny Cash had a song "A man named Sue" that describes what could happen if you did this to your son.

I looked up the origin of his last name, it IS British, mlm. My last name is different as he is my maternal grandfather. Funny that you mention Marion, that was his brother's first name as well as John Wayne's. I believe Francis is another man's name of old as that brother's middle name was Francis, he passed away in 2011. My Grandpa is doing well in a rest home, along with my Grandma. They are quite elderly, as I myself am 46.
That IS a good song, I've listened to it several times. Yeah, some of the versions are hard to understand the words.

Francis is just the whole name which Frank is the nickname for. Francis is the male version and Frances, the female. (Both pronounced the same.) I know a Francis in his 20s.

Somehow I think all those names which went from male to female had Ys in them, which would tend to make them Welch. Hmmm, I'll have to ponder.

But of course they don't all have Ys in them! Just ignore me.