Pruning Mariesii

Some of you may have seen that I posted these photos on the plant i.d. forum. I didn't mean to do that, because I'm pretty sure this shrub is Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum 'Mariesii'. I'm just trying to find out whether I should prune it and if so, how and when.
Plantfreak kindly provided some input, but I don't want to raise more specific pruning questions on the i.d. forum.

My only goal is to get a fuller shrub; I like its tall stature. If I were to cut it back, would it grow more horizontal branches and grow back vertically as well? I don't want to prune it only to end up with a shorter version of what I have now.

Muddy, usually the best time to prune a flowering shrub is just after blooms fade. You can certainly sacrifice some blooms/fruit for spring and do it now to get a more pleasing form or more dense/fuller growth for next year. The year after that you'll be rewarded with even more blooms and fruiting. This can be done every year (sometimes we need to do it when we think of it).

If you cut the lateral (horizontal) branches back by 1/3, it will produce more branching. Prune these limbs right beyond a bud (close to the leaf bud). Wherever that bud is oriented is where the new branch will form. I always try cutting on an angle to better resist disease penetration. Do not cut the leaders if you like the height, but do it if they need to be fuller at the top. You'll eventuall get to the height again next year. Pruning 1/3 is a good rule of thumb.

All the advice given is true enough, but I would say for the goal you have in mind - they are only nibbles. You need to dive in, and take the big bite.

I have had Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum here at the Valley for many years. I've propagated 'Mariesii', 'Shasta', 'Shoshoni', 'Lanarth', and a handful of others. They grow quite well, but don't prefer the extended dry periods often inflicted upon them by central KY summers. Dog-eared (like your favorite beagle) is the attitude they portray in these instances.

One fine early spring - the infamous 70-80F temps of February and March 2007 - the Doublefile Viburnums got a head start on their season, and had full foliage and flower buds ready to burst by Easter weekend (April 7). Then, they were subjected to four successive nights at 20F and below, with an additional affront of advective freezing - a term heretofore unknown to me, but apparently common parlance among citrus growers.

Many plants suffered under this insult. Some young specimens that I had just planted the previous fall - full with the promise of new spring growth flushes - were killed outright. Four brand new Nyssa sylvatica clones never saw their first summer. Among mature viburnum species, Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum specimens were killed to the ground. It is not pleasant to observe 6-8 foot full plants with 100% dead trunks staring back at you in early April - that the week before had been sashaying around, just about to reveal all their bounteous treasures.

You can feel sorry for me - or these plants - but this detour down memory lane has a point. Almost all the (older) Doublefile Viburnum resprouted from dormant buds at the base of their trunks (normal rejuvenation points) and are now once again large full plants. This experience leads me to the recommendation:

Cut your 'Mariesii' completely to the ground after spring flowering - or thereabouts - and let it rejuvenate next season. If it were mine, I'd cut it down before it leafed out - but you are welcome to wait until flowering has passed. Be prepared to supply ample moisture and fertilizer to push out healthy stems. Be prepared to prune for increased density over the slim shoots you will otherwise see produced. You will recreate a fine full Doublefile Viburnum over the stretch of two to three growing seasons.

You should also invest in a pollinating partner, so that you reap more of what you expect from a species like this.

Here are some images of the damage, and images of promise...

Thanks, Mipii ! It would not have occurred to me to cut the lateral branches, so I'm glad I asked. That will also help prevent a collision when the Oakleaf holly in the 2nd photo gets wider.

I don't mind sacrificing some height if it will result in a fuller shrub and more blooms. There are some sucker-like branches in the middle, so those would be particularly good candidates for cutting back.

Could I cut back 1/3 of the branches by 1/3 each, or is that too much for one year?

You're right about doing things when you think of them. In addition to forgetting, when the weather gets warmer there is so much else to do in the garden...which contributes to forgetting, too.

Thanks, VV! I am sorry to hear about your Viburnums because I know it's tough to see shrubs die. The only exception for me was a Chamaecyparis obtusa that died for some reason I could not figure out. I was a little relieved because I realized after planting it (for the second time) that it would become too big for its spot.

Anyway, I digress. I see some advantages to cutting it down now: I have time, and it will be psychologically easier than cutting it back when the buds start to swell with the promise of new life : ) . I have a problem cutting green branches. Weird, I know, but I do.

What are some good pollinating partners, how many do I need, and how close do they need to be?

This message was edited Dec 8, 2013 12:21 PM

I should let you do some DG forum research on the pollinating partner subject - it would save my typing fingertips, and you will see some interesting things that you didn't even know you were looking for.

Meantime - a PlantFiles search of Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum will reveal many clones of Doublefile Viburnum. 'Mariesii', 'Shasta', and 'Shoshoni' are three fine selections.

"Close enough" is how far pollinating insects will fly - these plants aren't typically wind-pollinated. I'd advocate for proselytizing neighbors so that more may enjoy the bounty of any group of Viburnums...

Thanks for the eloquent schooling VV, it's always a treat!

Another good reason for pruning now is that you can clearly see the 'bones' of the plant...along with not cutting swollen promises. Prune all dead branches back to the base, all crossing branches that would rub against another and anything that grows straight up (these are usually water sprouts) except for leaders of course. These all can easily be pruned any time of year.

If it were me, I would cut anything that looks leggy by 1/3...meaning 'all' if that's what it takes for a more pleasing form. Follow the results and you'll better understand which species can tolerate more or less pruning.

So many decisions to make, but fortunately, so much time...a entire winter, to be exact.
I'll move the task of deciding on a Mariesii pollinator to the top of the list as I happily plot out how to fill close to 500 square feet of sunny space created by the felling of a single tree.

My neighbors are very nice, but for some incomprehensible reason, not one of the succession of owners of houses on either side planted so much as a single new tree or shrub. I guess my screening and summer-blooming shrubs are enough for them.

So - you have room for 500 new young viburnums...or hollies...or magnolias...

I'm on my way...save me some fine specimens!

Here are photos of the area in question - 2 areas, really, separated by a young Aronia arbutifolia 'Brilliantissima' that is barely visible behind the liriope:

The area in the first photo is 144+ square feet, more if I relocate the 2 ratty-looking, recently-moved and cut-back azaleas and 2 Sambucus canadensis seedlings planted behind them. Right now, I'm leaning towards moving the azaleas and Sambucus and filling in the gap between the yews with a large conifer of a contrasting color (maybe Abies concolor).

The second photo shows 340 square feet; however, realistically the stump and roots remaining underground will limit what I can plant. I'd like to squeeze in at least one of the Sambucus, 1 Amelanchier laevis, Mariesii's pollinator and 3 additional Viburnums.

You have more ideas of what you want to plant versus available space, so I'm not going to load you down with "You should plant this" or "You should plant that". However...

I will counsel you to plant "like with like". If you want to grow things well, they have to play well together. Too often, gardeners want to have exceptional Ericaceous plants growing side by side with their Calciphiles. Similarly - I hear murmurings of it here - there is a desire to grow moist to wet lovers with drier site species. Be careful, lest ye lose sight of what brung ya.

Around the Taxus and Rhododendron, I'd lean toward the drier site species - which should exclude Sambucus, Ilex verticillata, and the like. Lots of people kill their Taxus by wetting their plants...

Downslope of there - that'd be the second image - there is some kind of plant with marcescent foliage (twice in one day!); maybe a Hamamelis? That could support all those species you list, except maybe the Serviceberry. Depends on how well-drained your soil is, but you could have a showplace with Elderberry, Winterberry, and wetter site Viburnum.

With nary a squeeze...

Nice...oops...just drooled on my sweater.

Sage advice, VV. I ended up with the gap between the Taxus (seen better in this photo) in part because the Taxus in the wettest position in the row died.

I had a Euonymus alatus between the row of Taxus (I want to say Taxi) and the single Taxus, and it was doing too well, to the point of contributing to disease in the Rhododendron and stunting the growth of the Taxus. Due to the E. alatus' non-native invasiveness, it was an easy decision to get rid of it.

Yes, the shrub with the marcescent (I had to look that up; I hope I can use it in Scrabble some day!) is a Hamamelis vernalis. The blooms are unremarkable, but I love the yellow fall foliage.

Now that you mention the Winterberry - I had debated leaving them in my front yard and taking on the deer, but if I put the Serviceberry elsewhere, I can go with plan A and put them in the back. I've already dug holes for them anyway!

I heartily second VV's advice to cut back your viburnum and let it grow anew. In my business, tired mature shrubs of many types, especially deciduous flowering ones, can be made "like new" by "rejuvenation pruning" them to a foot from the ground. My customers are often shocked, but by the next summer are delighted to see a very healthy "replacement" rapidly growing from the full root system still intact (a little fertilizer is OK, too). Personally, I've never had the patience for thinning out 1/3 of the old growth at a time, especially when one can have a nearly-the-same-size and full shrub a year after cutting back all growth.

Thanks, HoosierGreen! It will be hard to do, but I'm convinced that I should cut it down in order to get a 'Mariesii' that looks like the photos I see.

Should I wait until early spring, or can I do it this winter?

It is welcome indeed to see HoosierGreen back in the saddle. It has been too many years away from these forums. You've got a lot of catching up to do...

Per Muddy1's quest for vivacious viburnums - here is a sample from the Groove-yard of Forgotten Favorites...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/568744/

That old thread is interesting, VV. - great cliff notes for viburnum sex-ed ! You must see the same Viburnum questions pop up every year.
This isn't the first time I've seen people express concern that Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum 'Mariesii' is invasive. It sure isn't invasive around here. I've never seen one growing in the woods, and I've only ended up with one baby 'Mariesii' in my yard. I hope I get more - maybe my neighbors will let me plant them in their yards!

What are those vivacious viburnums - all 'Mariesii' ?

This message was edited Dec 14, 2013 4:29 PM

They are all Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum - 'Shasta' and 'Mariesii'.

Yes, yes, yes. There are always new converts interested in successful cultivation of the species.

You can't have too many viburnums...

And see what happens when you encourage me?

Another old favorite...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/578604/

Very funny thread - who would have thought that viburnums would engender so many barbs?!
Now that I have you on a roll, I'll throw in a question about another viburnum: Viburnum x pragense. Mine might be a lost cause because it's growing in shade, but if want to try for berries, what will it take?

That's like taking a walk down memory lane.

Lol, thanks for the link VV, that little exchange about cutting the grass tells me you're the man...it reminds me of 'The Man Song'...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdf9-hRt410

There is absolutely no condescension or chauvinism in that - at all. My dear spouse just loves to get out on the mower and make the rounds. I - in no way - wish to discourage that inclination. There's too many planting and/or other landscape management projects that I'd rather be doing - instead of "cuttin' grass".

As for Viburnum ×pragense pollination: look for one of Prague Viburnum's parents, such as Viburnum rhytidophyllum or V. utile.

I have Viburnum rhytidophyllum 'Cree', Viburnum ×rhytidophylloides 'Willowwood', Viburnum × 'Chesapeake', Viburnum × 'Conoy', Viburnum ×burkwoodii, and many more individuals to assist in pollination. I don't know that I could narrow it down further than what I recommend here.

It is heartening that Pseudo remembers these bantering days of yore - when participating under a different handle. I miss those participants, but I miss more the ease of the give-and-take. That is timeless, and not dependent upon specific personalities.

Let it continue once again, inspired by the common ground of plants and knowledge thereof - but not limited by stiffness and strict propriety.

Mutually acceptable division of labor is always the way to go, except when your real boss (at place of employment, lest there be any grounds for misunderstanding) tells you what to do.

I had to take a break to comply with my other bosses' orders - that would be the blue jay "scouts", who sometimes start demanding peanuts at 7 a.m.. After I oblige, they alert the others with piercing calls that I'm sure carry for blocks. If my neighbors have figured out that I'm the reason for the racket, they haven't said anything...fortunately, because it's not like I would stop.

That little digression is relevant, too: When I have tasty berries in the yard, maybe they'll let me sleep in on the weekends!

Back to Viburnums: I'm taking notes on your recommendations, VV. My favorite garden center carries Viburnum ×burkwoodii, so that would be the easiest to acquire, but I'll research the others too.

My Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum 'Mariesii' weathers our hot, often bone dry summers very well, even when I'm not around to water it, perhaps because it's in part-shade at the bottom of a swale that brings in rain water from several other houses. It does well when we get too much rain, too, like the 10" we got in July. It's feast or famine around here.

One can clearly read you are not chauvinistic or condescending. Your division of chores is the same arrangement we have in our household...based on personal preferences and competency. I do most of the cooking because both parents were Executive Chefs and I learned a great deal from them. My DH likes good looking grass and lawn maintenance but doesn't like gardening.

My MIL has come over and scolded her son for doing the dishes (it's not a 'man's' job), little did she know I just finished sanding and finishing woodwork and designing/building shelves for the bathroom. I very much appreciate my DH's masculine differences, in fact...I need them. Just for the proverbial record, I am in no way a 'feminist' either.

The link and comment I posted was all in fun, it was supposed to be humurous, Rodney Carrington is a comedian. I apologize if such posting caused ill feelings VV, that was not the intent.

edited to correct bold face type run-on.

This message was edited Dec 15, 2013 12:30 PM

No ill feelings at all - I hadn't looked at your link when I replied. You take that apology back, right now, and your boldface type too.

I was referring to the old post from 2006, with the humorous take on mowing preferences. Even way back then, there were those who couldn't partake of humor on these forums. I found that sad - but have apparently outlived most of them.

Oops forgot to close the tag...lol, I'm gonna fix that right now, then I'll deal with you VV.

Too late!

Off to hang curtain rods, er, assist elevation-challenged spouse by administering engineering skills to horizontally affixed shielding devices...

Frig, this is too funny! Now l've got a moniter to clean up after spewing coffee.

Mipii:

Sorry - can't take responsibility for inadvertent exhortations.

Curtain rods and blinds are satisfactorily installed. I've earned my adult beverage for the evening.

Muddy1:

As far as viburnums for fun and frolic, I would think that Virginia could accommodate 6-8 native species.

•Viburnum acerifolium
•Viburnum bracteatum
•Viburnum cassinoides
•Viburnum dentatum
•Viburnum nudum
•Viburnum prunifolium
•Viburnum rufidulum
•Viburnum recognitum

Certainly there are others, native and exotic. You could do worse than fill up on these.

Thanks for the suggestions, VV, and especially for highlighting their native status. Viburnum plicatum var. tomentosum and Virburnum rhytidophyllum don't seem to be invasive around here, so I'll select companions for them (or at least for 'Mariesii') but otherwise will stick to natives, given that I'm a recent convert. Googling the possibilities and seeing if they're sold around here will give me things to do this winter!