My first Lord Baltimore bloom!

My first Lord Baltimore bloom!

Kathy,

Congratulations the flower looks fantastic. Note the clean red color of the flower which is consistent throughout. Some hardy red Hibiscus, which are mistaken for Lord Baltimore, such as the Fleming Hibiscus Fireball (PP13631) have a slightly darker redeye, which is one way to tell the difference. Just remember that about half of the pictures of Hibiscus Lord Baltimore posted of DG are not that the correct Hibiscus.

Lord Baltimore is almost completely sterile on its own pollen and the pollen of most other hardy Hibiscus as well. Anyone trading Lord Baltimore seeds doesn’t have a Hibiscus Lord Baltimore. The pollen of Lord Baltimore will pollinate most other hardy Hibiscus, except itself. I have found one exception; the pollen from Hibiscus Moy Grande will pollinate Hibiscus Lord Baltimore with a 100% success rate. I produced the seeds for this cross last summer and have started these seeds this year. The results should be very interesting, very red and very big!

My Lord Baltimore bloomed for the first time this week as well, so the two plants are still in lockstep. If we have the correct root division, you’re Hibiscus Ohio White Star should bloom any day now. The suspense is killing me.

Now that you are a fully qualified Hibiscus cloning expert, you should be able to take root divisions every few years. Next you will have to try your hand a stem cuttings. I need to do some serious root divisions of my Lady Baltimore this fall; that Hibiscus is taking over its section of the garden again.

Mike

Bloom #2 - morning light really shows the beautiful red.

Mike, that is very good to know. I have had what was labeled as Lord Baltimore from the Garden Center for years growing in my garden. (there are photos that I have posted of it here) Last fall it had like 10 seed pods on it, one of which I hand pollinated from another LB flower. I was very new to hybridizing last summer so what did I know. Now I have a baggie full of seeds that I don't want...

So what you are saying is that mine is not LB? I actually still have the tag on it... That is funny that they are selling these to everyone with the wrong name on them. I need to look for some photos of it from last year for you to identify it for me. Maybe there are some in my files you can see. Let me know what you think. Would love to find out what it actually is. It is a spectacular bloom. Like 12" big. And the bush was over 7' tall. I thought it was solid, but it has not bloomed yet this summer, so I cant remember. I will have to look through my own DG journal as well to remember.

Thanks for the info! And Kathy, beautiful bloom!
~Kristen

The Hibiscus Lord Baltimore and Hibiscus Lady Baltimore (PP4271) were both breed by Robert H. Darby of College Park MD. In the plant patent for Lady Baltimore, Darby documents the difficulty of obtaining seeds from Lord Baltimore, which is the pod parent for Lady Baltimore. US Plant Patents are a rich source of information on the history of many cultivars.

Hibiscus plant named Lady Baltimore (PP4271) by Robert H. Darby
http://www.google.com/patents?id=KPY8AAAAEBAJ

”The hybridization was conducted over a period of years using as seed parent "Lord Baltimore," which first bloomed in 1955. "Lord Baltimore" is itself a near-sterile hybrid, its ancestry including Hibiscus militaris, Hibiscus coccineus, Hibiscus moscheutos, and Hibiscus palustris. Because of the shy seeding habit of "Lord Baltimore" (a flower-to-seedpod ratio of approximately 250 to 1), no attempt was made to keep the crosses exclusive. As far as possible, pollen was manually delivered from selected pink-flowered hibiscus plants; but there was no exclusion of the serendipitous bee. Selections were continuously made from the seedlings so derived.”

I had my Lord Baltimore for a number of years and never got so much as one seedpod, and believe me I hand pollinated the Lord Baltimore with every other Hibiscus in my garden, including itself. Last year I started growing Hibiscus Moy Grande and achieved a 100% pollination success rate with pollen from Hibiscus Moy Grande. The pistil of Lord Baltimore is longer than other Hibiscus hybrids and I have speculated that the pollen tubes for most hybrid Hibiscus are not long enough to achieve fertilization. In the case of Hibiscus Moy Grande, bigger may be better. I have no proof that this theory is correct and for now it must remain in the realm of speculation. I share it with you to generate a dialog and develop new explanations for what is occurring.

Pollen Tube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollen_tube

If you have a Hibiscus which you believe to be Lord Baltimore and it regularly produces seedpods, I can offer only two explanations:

1. The Hibiscus is not Lord Baltimore,
2. There is a nearby Hibiscus which can pollinate Lord Baltimore.

Using Seed Nicking and the Deno Method my first test batch Moy Grande (pollen) x Lord Baltimore (pod) test seedlings are coming along nicely. I will post updates when I have more information.

Mike

Hi Mike, Do you know if propagation of hardy Hibiscus can be done with cuttings. If so, when is the best time. Also, should the cutting be semi-hardwood or green such as new growth.

I started hardy Hibiscus from seeds I purchased from Parks, and seeds I got in trade. One such plant grows 4 ft, with darker leaves that has a touch of brown or maroon. The flower is a dark red. Another is a pink, yet another is white with pink at the edges.

Below is the dark red or maroon

Here is the pink which is smaller in height

And the white with a touch of pink on edges.

This is my Hibiscus. Not sure which one it is now.

Beautiful flowers everyone. Great work in raising them.

Here's what I've grown from a cutting. It blooms like mad. And loves water. It's definitely sterile...wouldn't produce a seedpod if its life depended on it. I'm not sure why anyone would start hibiscus from seed anyway. Cuttings root easily in the heat of summer with constant moisture. The same seems true of LADY Baltimore...so far.

The only issue with my hibiscus (all of them, really) is that my yard gets only dappled sun (under oak trees), so the branches really stretch early in the year...before setting buds...making for very leggy plants. Any idea whether I could prune them mid-season, to create fuller plants, without sacrificing flowers?

Here's Lady Baltimore. Mike, maybe you can confirm that both of these are true-to-name...?

Begonia Guy, that is remarkable.

Blomma,

Based on my experience of last year I would recommend that you clone stem cuttings as early in the spring as possible. I cloned stem cuttings of Hibiscus Lord Baltimore late in the summer last year but the three clones were not mature enough to survive the winter, so I took them inside under 24-hour artificial light. The Hibiscus Lord Baltimore clones bloomed all winter but when I put them out in the spring the three clones went dormant. One recovered and went on to bloom late in mid August but the other two clones are alive as roots but not growing. I should have tried putting the two clones into the refrigerator but I didn’t think of that until it was too late. The live roots are in pots so I am going to plant the pots for the winter and hope that the two clones survive and snap out of dormancy next spring. Hardy Hibiscus can skip a year in a dormant state and survive.

Hardy Hibiscus must go through a cold cycle each year or they will not grow new stems and bloom. The bigger the roots are, the better the chances are the clones will survive the winter so you must start the clones as early as possible.

A more reliable way to propagate hardy Hibiscus is through root-divisions. Hibiscus Lady Baltimore is such a prolific grower that the only sure way to keep in under control is through root-divisions which I will be doing in a few weeks. Unlike Lord Baltimore, Lady Baltimore is a prolific seed producer but it will not breed true from seeds. The plants I have produced from Lady Baltimore seeds are a very big disappointment compared to the real thing. Root divisions are the easiest and most reliable way to prorogate Hibiscus Lord and Lady Baltimore.

Mike

SCBegoniaGuy,

Your red Hibiscus has no discernable red-eye, which together with the other features of flower and the observed sterility suggests that it could be Hibiscus Lord Baltimore. I would need to see some photographs of the leaves. What the source of this Hibiscus?

Pink Hibiscus never photograph well and Lady Baltimore is no exception. The flower looks like Hibiscus Lady Baltimore. Can you post a picture of the leaves? What was your source for this Hibiscus and is it a prolific seed producer?

If you have access to pollen from Hibiscus Moy Grande try pollinating the suspected Hibiscus Lord Baltimore, and believe me you will get seeds if it is a Lord Baltimore.

Mike

Thanks, Mike. I can't find a good photo of the leaves. I think it's Lord Baltimore whose leaves have drawn attention for looking ALOT like marijuana foliage. And I believe Lady Baltimore has more of a tri-lobed leaf, with the center one being longer. I've never tried to see if Lady will produce seedpods, because I normally deadhead them immediately...to save the plants' energy. Both of these were very small cuttings, rooted in 4" pots, purchased on eBay using the names Lord and Lady. They both appear to be true. But you just never know...and I'm aware that hybridization is rampant...especially among moschuetos. These grow great in this climate. But they are herbaceous, and I cut them back to ground level each winter. They are VERY slow to wake-up in the spring, but grow exponentially once they break the soil with new growth. I need to read-up more on root division. It sounds like they may be rooted similarly to herbaceous peonies from what you're explaining...and I've done root divisions with them succesfully before. Are there any others you grow? My only other hardy hibiscus are some from the Luna series...although I like the 'wild' look of the taller ones best. Plus, they seem to THRIVE our super-hot summer when everything else is miserable. I do grow them very moist, near bog culture, when it's that hot.

SCBegoniaGuy,

It sounds like you have the correct cultivar. It is almost impossible to mistake Hibiscus Lord Baltimore. Hibiscus Fireball is often mistaken for Hibiscus Lord Baltimore but the red-eye is a dead giveaway; that and the fact the Hibiscus Fireball sets seeds. I strongly suspect that most the Hibiscus Lord Baltimore being offered for trade or sale are Hibiscus Fireball.

Compare these two sets of images:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=Hibiscus+Fireball
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=Hibiscus+Lord+Baltimore

The Hibiscus Fireball images are generally correct while many of the Hibiscus Lord Baltimore images are wrong.

The advantage of deadheading Hibiscus Lady Baltimore is that the flowers grow larger. A Hibiscus Lady Baltimore loaded with pods will continue to bloom but the flowers will not be as big. My Hibiscus Lady Baltimore gets too large for its own good and I am going to take a few root-divisions and re-plant the mother plant this fall once it goes dormant. If you don’t reduce the Hibiscus Lady Baltimore root-ball and replant in fertilized soil very five years, the flowers tend to become diminished.

I believe you got the real thing from your eBay seller. May I ask who it was?

I have been researching the history of hardy Hibiscus over the last 110 years and the amount of damage which propagation by seeds has done to the hobby is unbelievable. If you know what you are doing I don’t object to trading seeds of cultivars but the fact that the Hibiscus were propagated from seeds become quickly lost.

I took a lot of pictures this summer and will try to get some posts up with my findings. I am growing a seven petal hardy Hibiscus and am attempting to produce some hybrids for which most people will think me crazy. I will try to update my trade list with the new species seeds which I have.

There is almost no Hibiscus moscheutos in Hibiscus Lord and Lady Baltimore. The critical species are Hibiscus coccineus and Hibiscus laevis (AKA militaris). The criticality of Hibiscus laevis is seriously overlooked. The only way to transfer the red color in Hibiscus coccineus to other Hibiscus species is through a Hibiscus laevis hybrid. I plan to start growing Hibiscus laevis next year.

Can you describe your bog culture? I put a number of potted Hibiscus into some stock tanks with 4” of water and had some spatula grow increases as a result. I plan to crate a artificial bog next summer using cement mixing tubs ($12 @ box stores) buried a foot underground. Think of it as an underground cistern.

Mike

Mike,
Thanks for the info. I have cuttings of one each of the 3 colors. I took the cuttings down at the bottom of new growth. Stuck they in potting soil with rooting hormone and put it all in a plastic bag. If they root fine, if not, I will try it again. My son wants one of each of the colors. Hibiscus don't begin to grow here in Wyoming until June.

Now, a question. The only Hibiscus that produces useable pollen is the white one. The other 2 look like they do but when I try to get some, it is dry or none there. WHY??? I am trying to hybrideze them for some seeds.

Here are all three of them

Mike, I went back to my eBay archives, and the seller was "rosecottagegardens," but she is no longer a registered user, and has nothing for sale. Maybe it was very small amount of inventory that an individual was selling from her own plants.

My 'bog culture' was always a work-in-progress. Much like what you mentioned with the cement tubs, I took one of those old, round, plastic children's swimming pools and buried it underground, basically. Your use of the word 'cistern' was perfect...because that's how it worked. This was long ago, at a different house, but it seemed to work fine. Again, it might have been a nightmare if it weren't for our hot summers. It was a great place to grow things like cyperus specimens...and I believe the nearby hibiscus were able to 'drink' from the peripherae of that reservoir as well...as evidenced by their massive growth that year. Of course, once the 'pool' was buried, there was a layer of soil above that, too...probably 6-8 more inches, but no top-layer of mulch. So only the roots of the plants actually reached into the reserve. A friend who is a Master Gardener claims you can have the same luck with 6m plastic/poly as well...but that it's a good idea to punch a few holes in the bottom.

Having just bought a new house that's much more shaded, I probably won't try a bog here. I have enough moss covering everything as it is! And I have irrigation with over 35 sprinklers that meets my moisture needs before sunrise every morning. (I have dozens of cattleya orchids, and am most concerned about their bloom-season with this decreased sunlight). I literally went from point A to point Z on the footcandle scale when I bought this house. My hibiscus are now in pots...but need to go in the ground. I'm hoping to skirt-up some white oak trees...so that they won't grow so leggy next year. I can't even tell you how many plants I've got that are still in pots...waiting for me to find time to create a new 'home' for them here. BUT - since I'll be taking them out of their pots anyway, I'll try your root division technique this go 'round.

Very interesting about the species parentage of Lord and Lady! Because of growing orchids, I always look for the hereditary background of plants to adjust my care...as orchid species come from vastly different elevations and latitudes, making the strikingly beautiful hybrids tough to fine-tune. But I remember finding precious little online about the lineage that led to either Lord or Lady Baltimore Hibiscus. Thanks for sharing that. You just became my "go to guy" for hibiscus information. :o)

SCBegoniaGuy,
We would love to see your orchids in the GH. I have only one for 3 years now. It's nothing but a "Just add Ice" common iris. It blooms every year and once it bloomed twice in the same year. I would love to repot it, but am afraid I'll do too much damage.

SCBegoniaGuy,

There is a Lord Baltimore for sale on eBay for $7.99 plus $6.20 shipping.

Lord Baltimore Hibiscus Plant - 4" POT - Indoors/Out
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370539912636

Without physically inspecting the plant, I am reasonably sure that this is a real Lord Baltimore.

I am very sure that the following two items are not Hibiscus Lord Baltimore. In addition to the fact that they are selling seeds, note the distinctive red-eye in both pictures

HARDY HIBISCUS moscheutos *Lord Baltimore* SEEDS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280728395976

RED FLOWERED * LORD BALTIMORE * PERENIAL HIBISCUS BUSH 50 SEEDS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160652972122

This is not a Lord Baltimore either. Note the leaves and red-eye.

Lord Baltimore Hibiscus - What a Stunning Red Flower!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250848700510

Of the six items listed for sale on eBay as Hibiscus Lord Baltimore, only one appears to be the real thing. The sad thing is that many of these sellers may believe that they really have Hibiscus Lord Baltimore. This is the problem with seed trading when you don’t know what you are doing.

I didn’t find Hibiscus Lady Baltimore offered for sale on eBay. Lady Baltimore is a real problem because it is a prolific seed producer.

Mike

Mike that is the reason I don't buy plants on Ebay. Many sellers uses commercial photos which to me is a red flag. They know nothing about the plant they are selling. As far as seeds, no hybrid will come true from seeds.

QUESTION: What is so special aboul Lord Baltimore Hibiscus? I have a dark red Hibiscus grown from commercial seeds. What is the difference between mine and named variety?

Just curious.

Blomma,

Hibiscus Lord Baltimore is an heirloom cultivar which first bloomed in 1955. It is considered by many experts to be the purest red Hibiscus commercially available and can be identified by the fact that it has no discernable red-eye. Can you see a red-eye in your Hibiscus flower?

Excluding Hibiscus species, the statement that “no hybrid will come true from seeds” is correct most of the time but there are exceptions. The creators of the Hibiscus Luna Series were extremely clever in how they create their dwarf Hibiscus which can be purchased as plants or seeds. The seeds are F1 hybrids between two inbreed lines and the second generation F2 plants will not breed true. This is now many agricultural crops are created. You don’t need Plant Patents, because the inbreed parental lines are effectively trade secrets. If I find the time I will report on exactly how Ball Horticultural, Inc. created that Hibiscus Luna Series.

Try this search in Google: Hibiscus Luna Seeds F1

I agree that some of the eBay and Amazon sellers are at best incompetent; however, there are some good ones out there as well. In some cases the seeds and/or plants I am looking for were only available online. The Hibiscus Lord Baltimore I noted is definitely worthy of serious consideration, but it may be a late in the year given your location.

Mike

Blomma,

I am not sure why two of your Hibiscus are failing to produce viable pollen but I can think of three explanations, all of which may be wrong.

1. The Hibiscus contains a pollen sterility gene.
2. The pollen is late to mature.
3. The temperatures are too low to encourage pollen maturation.

I haven’t run into a pollen sterility gene yet but I wasn’t looking for it either. I have encountered late maturing pollen and pollen maturation delayed by low temperatures.

What is the source of the two Hibiscus which are not producing viable pollen?

Mike

Mike, the eBay seller that you deemed true-to-type on Lord Baltimore is Hirt's Gardens. Via eBay, I've ordered several things from them over the years...mostly spring bulbs. I think they're an example of viable nurseries that happen to use eBay in ADDITION to their usual business. Interesting about the others that aren't true. I do think I "got lucky" when I found both Lord and Lady on eBay...but also familiar enough to see past some imposters. That particular seller has lots available - but it's the wrong time of year to try and sell them, I'd think.

Blomma, I'd bet on Mike's 3rd suspicion - that your temperatures are already too low to produce pollen/set seed. Hibiscus, for me, only do well in the heat of summer...and quickly decline when daylength shortens. Keep in mind we're right at autumnal equinox. Mine still have some growth, but no new bud development...and it's notoriously hot here. Also being slow to "wake up" in spring makes hibiscus a novelty...but only for a couple of months...for me. Only one Luna series hibiscus is still blooming here, and the blooms are small. (And grasshoppers are eating them faster than they can open, unfortunately.)

Peg, I normally post photos of my orchids - when in bloom - on the monthly orchid thread. Until winter, I don't have many blooms...since I mostly grow old-school, corsage-type orchids (cattleya alliance). This time of year, they're putting on new growth, which won't mature and bloom until wintertime. But keep your eyes on that thread - because I'll be posting a few dendrobium-phalaenopsis types soon. They're about the only thing I have "in spike" this time of year.

This message was edited Sep 22, 2011 10:02 AM

Never tried the orchid forum. That's something to do when I get boted. thanks