Question about glacier rock dust

Hi I was wondering about glacier rock dust, every organic book I read says that this definitely makes the soil better etc... unfortunately I don't have or know of a rock quarry close to mobile AL and all the places online that carry this product charges you an arm and a leg just to mail it, I am wondering, is this product really necessary? I have been adding ironite to my beds thinking that it would also give minerals to the soil plus Lowes and HomeDepot carry it.
Is there any recommendations you could give me as whether or not it does make a difference in your soil and also if there is a place that carries it that won't charge you $30-$40 in shipping.

I've had wonderful success using greensand, which should be available in larger garden centers and even some big box stores. It's a wonderful natural resource that has just about every mineral in it you can think of. You might check out getting it at a feed store. It used to be available in large bags, which is a cheaper way, per pound, to get it. Now, I've seen it in 5 lb. bags. Just a little goes a long way.

P.S. Don't know a thing about glacial rock dust!

Thanks Hossier, I really don't know much either, in the book I am reading it does mention green sand as a mineral supplement as well, I'll have to check and see if any of the feed stores carry it, I really have not seen it at the depot or Lowes but I will ask and see.

I used to use ironite - I think it was supposed to be an acidifier, too. Make sure you aren't getting your pH too low. I really recommend a soil test - so you aren't treating a problem you don't have and creating a new one accidentally. As for glacier rock dust, I have never heard of it; but it must be similar to what we call decomposed granite sand. I live near the Rocky Mountains where rock products are cheap - I certainly wouldn't pay to ship them anywhere. How much sand/dust do you need? A bag? or a truck load? Try and find greensand first. If you can't find it, then you might try landscape supply - you want quarried or least washed sand - maybe kids sandbox sand. Carry a magnet in your pocket & see if it has iron filings in it, it should make a magnet pretty hairy pretty quick (cover magnet with a thin layer or plastic or paper for quick cleaning). If it has iron, it probably has other minerals, too. You don't want salty sand, but I don't know a easy test for salt - my farmer father-in-law actually touches his tongue to it - I could never do it. But don't spend much money on soil amendments until after a soil test!

thank you pollengarden I'll have to try that and see. As far as the soil test I had a home soil test kit and used that the only problem I see with it is I was able to correct the PH but the rest I was not sure on how to correct or even if I needed to correct it at all, before spring is here I am planning on maybe mailing a sample and see if I can get better info, the only problem is I have 6 diff raise beds so I guess I'll have to collect samples from every single bed and I am not sure if that will be pricey or not.

I have been planting veggies for a year in the raise beds and things seem to be growing well, tomatoes did really good but had problems with the stink bug, peppers did fantastic, the only things that did not do so well was my summer squash and also my eggplants other than that I really can't complain much.

I do have a landscape supply very close to my house but they carry a lot of big rocks such as lava rocks, river rock etc... not sure if they carry sand etc....

So far I've been in Home depot and I know they don't carry it, they did not even have seed starting mix which I need to start my veggies.

Carminator, I agree with what has been said by Hoosier and pollengarden. You should do a soil test before adding anything to your veggie beds.

Green sand is a type of sandstone that forms in oxygen depleted sea water that is rich in organic detritus....in other words dead plants and sea animals. It is rich in trace minerals (micro nutrients) and it also contains potassium (the K in the N-P-K).

I use Espoma brand greensand and it's available at most farm and garden stores. It's not cheap but you don't need to add much.

I googled Ironite and found some surprising info on that product. There seems to be some controversy over whether it contains toxic substances.

Link to pro Ironite info- http://www.progardenbiz.com/wp/ironite-produces-green-healthy-lawns/

Link to EPA's info on Ironite- http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm

Wow! 2gardenkate has done everyone a service. I had never heard anything bad about Ironite before and use it occasionally. If Canada has banned it, it bears looking into, or at least being very aware! Thanks.

Here is an article written here in DG on rock Dust by Darius:
http://davesgarden.com/articles/view/727/

Here is one on Bio Char : http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/947901/

and the followup on another forum: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/947897/

Please let me know if the links do not work.

2gardenkate, thanks for the 2 articles about ironite, but I am confused, one article poses no danger about using ironite as mineral supplement, in fact it praises its uses and says that it is completely harmless to animals and humans the other article talks about ironite having arsenic content. I am wondering if the arsenic content is high enough that it can be transmitted to plants and therefore pose a danger to humans consuming the product. Here's an article on arsenic and what contains arsenic. http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/eh/ChemFS/fs/arsenic.htm

I however am looking for better ways to add minerals to the soil, greendsand or other natural minerals, one thing in Darius article about Rock Dust, she comments that seaweed also has a high mineral content so my question is if i was unable to find greensand could I supplement with seaweed, to add minerals into the soil?

Yes, carminator, one article is positive and the other negative. That's why there is a controversy. The manufacturer's research shows it's OK but the EPA studies show a different result. I would trust the EPA's findings. I just wanted to give you both sides. Here is a link to an ezine article that does the same-

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Debate-Over-the-Use-of-Ironite&id=1653446

OK, Yes I guess my question should have been which one to trust? Thanks for the article, I had no idea about the arsenic and lead getting into the veggies. I guess is time to look for something different. Does anybody want a 50 pound bag of ironite, :)

Liquid seaweed is available online at many garden supply websites if you can't find it locally. I've used it with good results.

carminataor1: I would go ahead and use your "extra" Ironite on trees and shrubs, even turf grass, that you don't plan to eat. If you spread it out, it should be fine. Some studies show that plants can actually break down heavy metals in the soil, so if you don't plan to eat the treated plants, it should be a good way to dispose of the Ironite.

I have found liquid seaweed in Home Depot and my local nursery. It is used frequently at the start of the growing season, especially in transplanting. If you do not find any now, you might inquire at your local nursery to order it, if they do not carry it. They will probably have in early spring. Also there is kelp and sometimes it is combined with seaweed. It is available at many seedhouses by mail and online.

I've even reconstituted some dried seaweeds from my pantry; I keep several kinds on hand to add to soups.

A couple of other sites have been dealing with the question of adding mineral sources to the soil.
One is about using Azomite http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1146434/?hl=azomite

and the other is
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1146372/?hl=azomite

For Minerals I use Planters II which can be purchased from Fedco (http://www.fedcoseeds.com/ogs.htm ) in Maine or T & J Enterprises ( http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPRO/ecom-prodshow/planters10lb.html ) (I have used both - both are good but where you live determines shipping costs so go with the one that is cheaper for you) but Azomite looks interesting as well. I haven't tried the Greensand but will look into it.

For Greensand, check and see if you have any friends living in new Jersey, as that is where it is mined. Fortunately, my local nursery carries greensand, though it is not cheap. I try and use it sparingly...LOL!

I got Azomite on ebay.

After several years now of researching and amending my garden, I am still at the conclusion that generally putting minerals like greensand, azomite, seaweeds and other mixes is a shotgun approach. I've had some help with soil tests through my county agent, but those tests seldom test for essential things like boron.

The bottom line for me, and probably for most of us, is having a healthy soil that will increase the Brix in our fruits and vegetables, and decrease insect/disease problems. A higher Brix indicates a more nutritional product. I belong to a really good Brix group on Yahoo Groups; there are several, and this one lead by Rex Harrill is called BrixTalk. I don't have the URL because I get daily digests via email, but it's easy to find by gong to Yahoo Groups.

This year (money permitting) I plan to get at least one sample tested through AgLabs. I haven't done this before now because I was pretty sure I didn't really know enough to ask for the right tests, or to interpret the test data. There are a bunch of helpful explanatory articles in their archives from their newsletter archives here: http://www.aglabs.com/sitemap.html

I now understand that it's not enough to have the needed minerals in the soil; the minerals MUST be in the "available" form plants can actually use. Sometimes the available form can be in what I add, such as soft rock phosphate instead of the regular rock phosphate. Other times, I cannot add a mineral in the right form, but have to rely on a really good microbial population/balance to do the altering (breakdown) of the minerals for me.

Then, if I have enough microbes, I have to feed them, and house them. That's where biochar and humus enter the picture. Microbes will not proliferate without the right minerals, and their mineral ingestion creates the residues needed and taken up by our plants. I'm a big fan of inoculated biochar!

From what I have read, greensand is used extensively by Amish farmers, along with compost and manure. That gives it a certain favorable review, but...?
I will say that my experience of using greensand for many years has been positive. I sprinkle a handful of greensand in larger planting holes such as for shrubs and trees, just a dusting for perennials and bulbs. It seems that the minerals are in a readily available form to the plants. I've also used ground rock phosphate in the past, but it's almost impossible to find now. Twenty years ago, one could get large bags of greensand for pretty cheap, but today all I can find are 4 or 5 lb. bags that are not cheap!

Maybe we can get a coop purchasing group together?

HoosierG... Greensand is an amazing ingredient! I know nothing else that will break up clay soil and at the same time, increase the water-holding capabilities of sandy soil.

I buy granular CalPhos (http://www.cantonmills.com/cgi-bin/webgenie.cgi?button=92) in 40 pound bags; it's mostly soft rock phosphate. Having said that, I am also aware the world's supply of phosphate is rapidly diminishing.

The problem with a purchasing coop lies not in whatever pricing that may be obtained, but cost of shipping. I am fortunate that a group of local farmer's market vendors team up, and although we do not get bulk pricing, we do get fair pricing better than retail. What we DO gain is splitting the cost of pick-up a hundred miles away, saving on shipping.... unless someone takes a trailer for 2,000-3,000 pounds of something. We predominately buy from 7 Springs. http://www.7springsfarm.com/

I just looked up (Googled) for greensand info, and found out that it is mined in three U.S. location, New Jersey, Texas, and...already forgot the third one, but it may be Florida. Also, for those close to a Worm's Way store (east of the Mississippi), they have the best price that I could find. A 50 lb. bag for a little more than $40. Shipping would be the killer though. One Amazon dealer listed a 36 lb. bag of greensand for only $20, but shipping was over 60$!!!

It is an amazing product though.

I but greensand from a feed store in the next town. Last year, 40 pound bags were about $20. I have several in the shed. Probably a good thing because they probably will be twice as much in 2011.

The reason I stopped using "Ironite" is because my favorite garden shop stopped carrying it and replaced it with "Ionate". I guess the controversy is why they stopped selling it. I have alkaline soil, but an acidifier isn't effective unless I add organic matter (or something for bulk), too, because I have a lot of "free lime" which makes the pH is very stable and difficult to change, so I try and reduce the % of lime by volume while increasing the acid.

pH - too high or too low - affects a plants ability to absorb nutrients. Soil temperature can also affect absorbtion - we have plenty of iron in our soil, but various plants show iron chlorosis (yellow leaves) in the Spring when the soil is both cold and wet. Some forms of some minerals don't move from where you apply them, so you have to mix them into the soil where the roots can reach them - sprinkling them on top of the soil won't work. So only the "N" of the N-P-K fertilizer gets used by my lawn - I don't need the K, and the P doesn't soak in.

I felt sure it'd be possible to buy greensand from a feed store! I definitely will check into that locally. Your cost, darius, sounds like close to what I paid twenty years ago! Yeah!

Happy New Year!

I just checked my supplier. Greensand, 50 pound bag, $14.50
http://www.7springsfarm.com/catalog.html

pollengarden: A note about yellow leaves and iron chlorosis. Here in the Midwest, we have alkaline heavy clay soils. Red maples are native, and the cultivars are very popular and widely planted. However, they sometimes show chlorosis in high pH soils, often leading to death of the tree.Up until recently, this was thought to be because of iron deficiency. That left many wondering why applying Ironite didn't have much, if any, affect. Now, research has shown that manganese is actually the causal agent! I special-ordered manganese supplement spikes from a palm growing nursery in Florida to use on some clients' ailing red maples. I broke the spikes into pieces and stuck them in the ground all around the trees, up to the drip lines. Guess what? They worked! I don't know how often the trees will have to be "treated", but at least I know how to help them!

darius: Wow! Great price. Perhaps it's because you're so close to the quarries in New Jersey? I'll check Spring Farm out to see what shipping adds to the cost.

We have alkaline clay here, too. I will have to try manganese on my roses, that is only area that seems to have chronic chlorosis.

Here's another site that has some good information on increasing the nutrient density in foods from our gardens:
www.highbrixgardens.com

darius, yes I agree that is a great price, I would not mind paying that at all for the green sand, I guess is time to start calling around and see, I know in the past I have not had much luck with my local feed and seed stores that are near by, the one closest to my house seem to carry more feed for animals than anything and the there is another one that for what I have seen does not carry a lot of organic products either. The problem of buying it online is not the price of the product but what they charge you for shipping I think it is outrageous that they charge you more than the are charging you for the product they are selling.

Darius, thanks for posting the highbrixgardens website. It looks very interesting.... something I will have to read in detail.

Thanks, Darius, for your input on this subject and the links. Having the 7 Springs Farm so close is an enviable blessing. They carry great products! You have gotten me really interested in going back and using some products I bought a few years ago but never fully utilized plus adding others.

It is still a quandary for me how much of all this stuff to add. A soil test for me would involve numerous ones since my soil is clearly different about every 5 feet! I can feel the difference between the heavier versus the more friable, looser soils. This is due to my creating 3 x 4 ft squares in my veggie garden which have been treated differently throughout the years.

I have been going to the T & J Enterprises Website again and reading some of his blogs to get an idea of at least what the ratios of calcium and phosphorus should be when using gypsum, soft rock phosphate and lime. He is, of course, basing much of his writing on his experience and the products he sells but getting a high Brix is a major goal for him and he addresses the subject very well.

Here is the link to his product page where he discusses the products that will lead to a high Brix and especially his "Organic Gardening Kit for High Brix Gardening". I am not pushing the products and have no connection to the company (except as a home gardener who has used some of the products and can verify from personal experience that they are good - just costly to ship!), but the ratios are very helpful for home use and I plan to apply them this spring. We should all be able to find bags of Lime, Gypsum and Soft Rock Phosphate locally. I'm hoping my local Agway will have some of it. Perhaps you will find the ratios helpful too.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/#Garden_Sales_Kit_

I need to get the Pelletized Lime (He uses Pro-Pell-It) and probably find some Calphos Soft Rock Phosphate or similar. I have the Gypsum and already use the Biosol, Planters II and an inoculant (used to use the Biovam). I even have his one gallon tea brewing kit which works great but I have been too lazy to make it up and apply it on a weekly basis! Instead this summer I sprayed on Fish Fertilizer and Kelp and got good results. While I have gotten really good quality veggies from using some of his system my husband calls them my Million Dollar tomatoes!. But if raising the Brix level really does inhibit disease and bugs and makes the food healthier then it is worth the savings in pesticides and future medical bills. Since starting to use the Biosol and the Planters II this summer I had very few bugs - maybe it was just this summer, can't be sure.

So whatever works to raise the Brix is worth sharing and I am glad this thread has begun to address the issue of minerals, etc. in our soil.

If I am not mistaken, he is a regular contributor to the Brix Group I follow on Yahoo.

The Brix gardening information is new to me, or at least using Brix to guesstimate trace mineral content - so I will have to research this some more. What I have read previously:
I thought Brix just measured Sugar content. I understand it can increase dramatically in fruit the last few days before peak of ripeness. Some seed catalog descriptions of some varieties mention high Brix - and some of these high Brix varieties have been accused of being too sweet without having any flavor (a problem for fruit for cooked recipes - one can add sugar, but not classic flavor).
RE: http://www.highbrixgardens.com 's comparison of nutrient content of green beans. Yes, certainly what is available in the soil effects what is taken up by the plant, but it is modified by that plants ability to take it up, and how long since harvest and how it was stored meanwhile. I am concerned that what is really being compared here is the time lapse from field/garden to table/test. A few fruits benefit from being picked slightly under-ripe and stored at room temperature for a few days (ie pears), but the vast majority do not (ie sweet corn - my folks always said to set the water on to boil before going out to pick!).

pollengarden, many folks agree with your thoughts. I use my refractometer to test the Brix in growing leaves so that I can adjust soil amendments before the fruiting stage.

Brix measures total dissolved solids, not just sugar although sugar has been the widest usage. I had my refractometer for years, used only for measuring the sugar content of grapes for winemaking before I discovered what else it can help me with.

Understanding and working with Brix is not a weekend class. I've been hard at it for 3-4 years and still lack a lot of knowledge.