Meyer Lemon not fruiting - is it rootstock that's growing?

This is a 10 yr. old Meyer Lemon, new to our garden.
It flowered but never fruited for original owners.
Have only thinned it a bit thus far, for light.
Healthy dark green foliage. About 8 ft. tall. And it's got the hypodermic size thorns.

How can I tell if it's rootstock that's growing?
(often non-fruiting mandarin, I read somewhere. true?).

There are four trunks. One looks like it could be grafted, but it's up very high.
No visible graft on the others. (mind you, I don't know anything about grafts).

Could it be a mix -- one grafted Meyer lemon trunk plus three interlopers from the rootstock?
They said it was "just a stick" when they planted it, so it must have been single trunk.

Should I check for a graft under soil level?
Or is own-root possible? (not common for Meyer Lemons I read...)

Any advice on how to diagnose this - and get it to fruit! -- much appreciated.

pics. are: 1) whole tree, 2) the 4 trunks at soil level, 3) the possible graft

2nd pic: the 4 trunks.
Down near soil level, those are shadows not grafts.

3rd pic.
the possible graft.
but it's well over a foot above soil level
can take a clearer photo if need be

Some people grow Meyer lemons from seed, so they're not always grafted (they are supposed to come very close to true from seed). If it is grafted, it would most likely be grafted onto 'Flying Dragon' rootstock, which is a cultivar of Poncirus trifoliata. It has trifoliate leaves (see picture here for an example: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/122528/ ) and your Meyer lemon ought to have single leaves, so you should be able to tell from a close look at the leaves whether any (or possibly all) of your stems are rootstock or not (I can't really tell from your picture). P. trifoliata does have wicked thorns, but other citrus have thorns too. The fact that it was just a stick when they planted it and now it's got these 4 trunks coming up from the base suggests to me that the original grafted plant may have died and been replaced by new shoots from the rootstock, but if it was seed grown and not grafted then those sprouts that came up would still be Meyer lemon. So I'd examine your leaves to see if they come in 3's or single (or post some close-up pictures if you're not sure).

If it's flowering but not fruiting, that indicates a pollination issue but it doesn't really tell you anything about whether it's the plant you think it is or not--Poncirus trifoliata will bear fruit too, they're just not very tasty. If the plant has been indoors during the time when it's flowering that could be why there's been a lack of pollination--you may need to hand pollinate if it flowers when it's too cold to have it outside.

I am also a bit concerned that it may be planted too deep in your pot--there should be a spot where all four trunks come together, and then from there it flares out to the roots. That part right at the top of the root flare should be above the soil, but since your 4 trunks all seem to be emerging individually from the soil it suggests that the top of the root flare is probably buried at least a few inches. If you leave it planted too deep, it can eventually cause the plant to rot, so I'd definitely do some gentle excavation and see if you can locate that root flare and un-bury it. If that root flare was buried right from the start, that could be what caused the original trunk to die.

ecrane3. thanks for all this help.

It's single leaf, not trifoliate. And the growth from all 4 trunks appears the same too. So all that is promising.
It sounds like I should assume it's a lemon capable of bearing fruit till it proves otherwise.
I wouldn't have minded P. trifoliata either -- bitter, but good for marmalade and zest!


I was really hoping it might just need pollination. They weren't gardeners, so might never have tried that.
And here in St. Louis the tree will be inside by the time they generally bloom.
I'll certainly hand pollinate if it flowers (wasn't clear if they got flowers every year or not)

On the planting depth: I thought I'd better let it settle in and learn more about it and then do a proper re-potting rather than disturb it twice. Should the crown be just visible or really right up above the soil a bit? Could I think day lily and get it about right?

Water pretty much runs right through it now. I know it needs good drainage, but as is it would be hard to water it once inside. I figured I'd give it a pebble bed at the bottom of the pot. Any recommendations on the best soil mix? (sand & vermiculite & a good potting soil?). In what I've looked at so far, some say to include some peat. Some say don't...



This message was edited Sep 9, 2010 3:33 PM

This message was edited Sep 9, 2010 3:34 PM

on the flowering. My impression was it was pretty sporadic.
But it probably wasn't getting enough light either.

Would you say a southern exposure window will do for good flowering,
or should I really give it a supplementary grow light too?

Indoor light is never as intense as outdoors, so if it's not flowering well for you when it's indoors then some supplemental light wouldn't hurt. But the light needs to be really close to the plant in order to have much effect, so adding supplemental light is easier if you've got seedlings or small houseplants rather than something larger like this. So I'd put it by your brightest window during the colder months, and keep it outdoors during warmer months and see what happens.

As far as looking for the crown and repotting, I'd suggest doing a little bit of gentle excavation around the base of the plant to see if it is indeed buried. If it is, then fixing that sooner rather than later would be the best idea. I also wouldn't suggest the pebble layer in the bottom of your pot--that can actually hurt rather than help. There are some great "sticky" threads in the Container Gardening forum that talk all about water movement & drainage in containers--really excellent reading and very enlightening so if you haven't read through those yet I'd highly recommend it. There's a lot of discussion of good mixes for containers in those threads too.

ecrane3, thanks again.

I'll look up those threads you mention. I don't grow much in containers (as you can tell!) so that will be really useful.

I did already go excavating. The crown was just about an inch under the soil. So I've just gently exposed it and a few inches all around it for now.

It must have been buried quite awhile, because one trunk has produced two fairly large (diameter) roots which are now above soil level. There are a lot of those tiny surface roots too. It seems to be the two above-crown roots that have generated them.

Ohhhh. Ecrane did a nice job of running things down for you but you have a lot going on there. My first thought is there is probably nothing but roots in the pot and it needs to be replanted in a bigger pot. Next thought is light, citrus produce the most in full on all day long sun so in your case you need to get it as much sun as possible when possible. In my neck of the woods citrus flowers when you guys still have snow on the ground so if you see flowers you need to pollinate them yourself. I would check to see if the roots are wrapping themselves all the way around the pot which if that's true I would prune the roots a bit.

End comment is I would yank that tree right out of the pot and see what is what then replant in a new bigger pot and I would not use peat at all, citrus has no love of wet feet. Next up I would prune the above ground parts. As far as light citrus will grow as an under story tree but the less light, the less fruit. My first take of your picture had me thinking "flying dragon" root stock had taken over, I can't really tell from your picture and apparently that's not the case.

Did you see a graft when you dug down to the crown???

Good luck.

CoreHHI. I agree -- it's got multiple issues. But for $20 I figured it was worth a try! jubejubetexas has been really helpful too. (last few postings in this thread: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/992998/).

It's not flying dragon. Leaves are single and at least similar to Meyer lemon, though maybe there's another orange rootstock that it could be? I'll get a shot of the leaves.

Have just pruned a bit so far. Highest growth was from the "possible graft" trunk, and I didn't trim it yet..
It seemed so unlikely, but thought I'd better be safe than sorry. Is a graft ever up so high?

No, I didn't see any signs of a graft when exposing the crown. But will take a better look. Maybe it is an own root tree.

Pot is bigger than it looks in my photo. 21 gallons says jubejube (who also says to go up a size or two).
It doesn't look terribly rootbound. But I'll only really know when it comes out. It does have a lot of those wee surface roots in one area.

It also has put out 2 significant roots laterally just above the crown (which was buried about an inch down). I'm inclined to take those two roots right off when I repot. I think the tiny surface roots are coming from those two roots too.

If it flowers in season, odds are it'll be indoors already. During November is pretty likely). So it's got about another 2 months outside.

I usually don't fertilize anything right after repotting or messing with its roots.
But I'd like to get it maximum nutrients while there's still the longer light and warmer days.

Do you think it will handle it alright if it gets i) repotted with some soil amendment (no peat!), ii) pruned, and iii) fertilized all in short order?

Or should I take it slower?

It's not recommended to fertilize right after planting/transplanting so I would definitely hold off on fertilizing until it's had a little time to settle into the new pot. You can prune and repot at the same time.

One other thing I just noticed when I was looking at your picture again--I see that you've got a saucer underneath the pot. Are you making sure to empty that after you water, or does water sit around in there? You can end up with root rot problems if you let water sit in the saucer. I don't know if you're doing that or not, but since it's a rather large pot and probably a bit heavy to move I suspected that the saucer might not get emptied.

Hi, Paani. Just FYI: you indicated passing interest in p. trifoliata Flying Dragon.
It's fully hardy in St Louis, grows well here and makes a very interesting winter silhouette with it's remarkably twisted branches. But WICKED thorns!

ecrane3 -- you're right again. Though I have been draining it off after big rains. Why it's there is just because it came with it, and I didn't think! Will remove it till bringing it inside.

It's not as heavy at it should be frankly. Together with the water going through like a sieve, that tells me the soil need rejuvinating.

on the fertilizing : someone was saying how citrus really need the fertilizer, so I wondered if I should just go ahead since I don't know when it was last fertilized. But I don't want to shock it either. Will do as you've said.

weerobin -- Is that one growing in your garden? I actually thought of planting p. trifoliata along the fence once -- one of many schemes to keep the cats in. Maybe I'll do it yet!

I will post a decent photo of the leaves, just in case anyone can make a definite ID from that.

This message was edited Sep 11, 2010 1:01 PM

here are 3 more pics showing leaves and crown.

I don't see any sign of grafting down near the crown -- but maybe someone else can say for sure ?

Leaves: single. And one pic shows the thorns too. Anything distinctlvely "Meyer Lemon" about them. Or could it be a mandarin understock just as well?

some puckering on a few leaves too. (leaf curl?) Have just plucked those ones off so far.

here's the crown, with 3 of the 4 trunks visible. Also note the roots that developed above the crown when it was buried. And you can see the surface rootlet development too. Do citrus tend to put those out when they're waterlogged?



This message was edited Sep 11, 2010 5:14 PM

Paani, my p. trifoliata Flying Dragon has thrived outdoors for many years.
Easy, carefree plant.

weerobin -- have you ever tried doing anything with the fruit? I've heard it makes a good bitter marmalade (if you like that sort of thing).

I have never done anything with the fruits. I had heard they were essentially inedibilble.

I did a quick search and found a pretty informative discussion over at, um, you know, that other garden site:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/edible/msg0112154325958.html

Some are saying inedible and unuseable. But a few have tried and succeeded in making something they liked. Search on hersh67 for the most detailed positings about using the fruits.

Have tried to heed all the good advice from this thread and the Citrus in Containers thread in the Fruits and Nuts forum: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/992998/

Thanks to all. Here are the results so far. Still may trim it back more (it's about 6 1/2 or 7 feet at the tallest spot).
Hopefully it's better off than when I started mucking about with it!

1) drainage: drilled these holes in its new pot:

2) roots. This shows the side of the rootball. I didn't trim roots on the bottom as it didn't look rootbound. But I did clip the roots that had developed above the crown, and a lot of the surface-growing rootlets were removed that way too. Virtually no soil loss in the repotting, and it got 20-30 qt. of new soil -- maybe 6" under the rootball, the rest around it.

3) crown: worked off some surface soil while removing surface rootlets. here's the crown now. If I exposed any more I'd be exposing roots, so I stopped here:

Here she is in her new pot. Pot is not a lot bigger, but it is deeper and a bit bigger around.
Have thinned and also trimmed down to 6 1/2 - 7 feet.

and last, but definitely not least: my helper

If you want to be even more adventurous, I could point you to some cuttings of other types of citrus so you could graft multiple varieties on this one plant. Spring is the best time to do it. You could put Lemon, Mandarin, Navel and more on there to maximize your chances for fruit. Grafting is much easier than most people think.

oh, now that sounds like something worth trying! And I have never tried grafting. how about lime too? I love limes.

Any citrus will work.
Try throwing a Grapefruit and Kumquat into the mix.

I think it would be best to try t-budding first. If you try wedge or tongue/whip, you have to cut one of the branches off. With T-bud, you just cut off one of the tiny little buds off the branch of the donor, make a T shaped incision on your tree and slide the little bud into it. It can start growing right away or a year later. However, you can do about 20 of them without really hurting your tree. You might even go to a local nursery and ask if you can cut off some small branches for a buck or two. Locally owned nurseries would probably be your best bet. Here is a video I found right away showing a guy doing a T-bud. There are better website and vids for this. You really want to buy some Parafilm tape on the internet. It will cost your about 5-6 bucks and will last years. You wrap this around the incision leaving just the tip of the bud exposed. This will eliminate moisture loss without harming the plant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FKM-s8XXh8&feature=related

will look at this vid. And look into t-budding. Since you said to do it in the spring, I get to see what the tree does this winter as is. That's good too. If one trunk is fruiting well, I could leave that as is and experiment with the others.

One fruit per trunk, or could I actually have more than four types of fruit growing on these roots ?! (there are 4 trunks).

Mind you, I'll be happy with any one kind of fruit first of all.

If you do T-bud, you dont have to cut the branches off. You can add a new bud every few inches on the existing trunks and have multiple varieties on one trunk.

paani,
Here's a photo of my helper. He's been an indoor cat only since he survive a bout of histoplasmosis 5 years ago and can only help around the house.

they've got the same green eyes, don't they. So glad that yours recovered.
She only goes out in the backyard, though she does lapse now and then and show up next door.
But she loves her garden so that she gets her way. Here she is in the fall garden:

Happen to know if you can graft a Kumquat on to flying dragon root stock?? I happen to have a fly dragon growing in the ground and what was grafted to it died off last winter so I'm think of grafting something to it just not sure what yet.

this one seller seems to have kumquats that are grafted onto flying dragon :
".... can usually be achieved by grafting a kumquat cultivar into a trifoliate (wild sour orange tree) rootstock."

[link to unreliable vendor removed. See next posting below for warning on TyTy / Aaron]



jujube will know for sure!

This message was edited Sep 19, 2010 8:44 PM

I have two Kumquats, Improved Meyers Lemon and Washington Seedless Navel on Flying Dragon. This rootsock can take heavy soil better than most. It is also very drought tolerant and imparts some of its cold hardiness to the cultivar grafted on to it. It will also semi-dwarf the cultivar you graft to it so it will only get about 8-9 feet tall.

Aaronsfarm is another name for TyTy Nursery. They had such a bad rating on the Garden Watchdog that they threatened lawsuits to have their name removed. They go by about 30 different names as to fool customers they have f**ked over. The graphics on their websites are very similar and you can usually tell it is them by that similarity. Also they have creepy pictures with weird sexual hints in how they present their fruit.

STAY AWAY FROM THESE VENDORS!!!!!

oops. was NOT recommending them in any way -- just posted the first one that mentioned the rootstock when I did a search.
I noticed that they were exaggerating the cold hardiness in their description - but it sounds like that's the least of their sins.

sorry I put up a link to them. hey, I can edit. I'll just get rid of that link. Bye Bye TyTy.

Dont worry. It is definitely not your fault. People are rabid about that site after they said they were going to sue Daves out of business. I suspect everything I am writing about them will be removed by admin within a few days for legal reasons.

Anyway.......

Flying Dragon is hardy below zero degrees. Kumquats are hard to about 14F. If you graft Kumquats on Flying Dragon, you will probably get a few more degrees of cold hardiness from your plant. My Washington Navel on Flying Dragon has taken temps in the mid-teens and survived. It is supposedly only hardy to 24F. It is an older tree and that helps too. Flying Dragon is covered with vicious thorns and fruit with almost no pulp and all seeds. It makes good roodstock and an impenetrable hedge.

ok, let's never mind those folks-who-shall go-unnamed (and who put in all the right tags to end up at the top of google searches). If a person were going to buy a kumquat tree (for indoor/outdoor) via mail order, any favorite sources you'd recommend?

Flying dragon is the recommend root stock in my area if you want smaller trees. All my citrus trees are on flying dragon and in fact I believe Trifoliate Orange is listed as invasive in SC. Seem to remember reading that. The whole point there is flying dragon rootstock is plenty hardy and has no disease or pest problems.

BTW my citrus trees are more like 15 ft tall and planted in the ground so the trees are dwarfed but they still get to a fairly big size. Does me no good if I have to have a bucket truck to harvest the fruit. We have full size kumquat trees growing around here no problems with cold or anything but they get bigger than I really want. Might be what I graft to the root stock with no purpose at the moment.

Paani, FYI. Some of this year's crop on Flying Dragon.