Prices of daylily intros vs. prices of iris intros

I posted this on the daylily forum. I'd love to hear what you think.....



I have quite a few daylilies in my garden that are washed out looking, and I wanted to replace them with some of the new ones, with eyes, or chicken fat, or, or, LOL. But then I got looking at the new intros and whoa! Expensive!

I know a new iris will go for $45-50, but hundreds of dollars?

So, I was wondering what accounted for the difference in the intro prices of daylilies vs iris, and we had a good discussion on that other forum.

I asked Bill Maryott, as I know he has hybridized both for his take on it. Here's what he said. Hope this is of interest.

Hi Polly,



We’ve been super busy shipping large quantities of daylilies but today I finally have a few minutes to respond.



You bring up interesting questions but the answers are not quite as simple.



I’ll try to give you some thoughts on two different subjects. The first is why daylilies sell for more than iris, the second is what’s happening with the breeding of iris and daylilies.



First is price. I think the formost issue is that daylilies are not really easy to divide. They look much better in an established clump and trying to pry some fans of the side of an established clump is not easy. Folks, in hems, tend to tell their friends “hey if you want this super new variety, I would suggest you order it” In the iris world, they say “hey, if you want to super new variety, I’ll snap you off a fan this summer and give it to you. If you don’t get it planted for several weeks, no problem. That is not the case with hems.



I think there is also a sort of “group think” that occurs. “Daylilies are expensive, always have been expensive and always will be expensive. If you want a $5 daylily, you can find folks that will supply it, but understand it is now pretty much outdated. There certainly are lots of $5 daylilies sold because most folks just want color and not necessary the best. Now with iris, the “group think” is different. The general attitude is “any iris should be cheap. Maybe $40 or so the year of introduction, but everyone will have it in two or three years so I’m not paying much for it.”



The iris growers send lots of plants to regionals and nationals to get exposure, but would rarely ask for anything to be returned. “Just keep it, spread it around so everyone will see it” and that doesn’t help the commercial growers. Daylilies sent to conventions will almost always be named cultivars and it may not be unusual for them to ask for the stock to be returned. Some dayilies will hold prices above $50 for ten or more years like FORESTLAKE RAGAMUFFIN.



One of the major reasons we moved from iris to hems was due to the price. Paying $50 for a new introduction is not fair to the breeder. It ignores the work going into creating seedlings, choosing introductions and growing them until one has sufficient stock to sell. It’s a slap in the face of the breeder. “your work is not that important…if you can’t provide it, then someone else will”



Now let me talk a minute about flower advancement. Both of these flowers were primarily diploids. The iris essentially moved from diploid to tetraploid during the 1930’s and 40’s. By 1950, nearly all of the Tall Bearded iris were tetraploids. The advancement occurred in iris primarily from 1940 to 1980 or so or maybe a bit later. Phenominal cultivars like SKY POWER were created that took blue TB iris to new heights. There have been very few new factors occuring in iris during the last ten or twenty years. This means, in my humble opinion, that the advancement of TB’s has slowed down considerable. Keith Keppel and Barry Blyth and a few other folks are still making a few advancments, but most of the newer iris are “reruns”.



Now the daylily is entirely different. Perhaps 20% of the new cultivars being introduced into commerce are still diploids or recent diploid conversions. There are an entire set of new patterns and features that have not yet been implemented. Examples are complex eyes, applique throats, patterned eyes, engraving or sculpturing, unusual forms, double and triple rims, very dark nearly black flowers, blue eyes and edges, toothy edges and the list goes on and on. The daylilies being created today look almost entirely different than the daylilies created just ten years ago. This flower is in a major transition right now. I would imagine it will be at least another 20 years before all the advancements have been implemented.



I hope this helps a bit. Remember, this is all just my opinion. I’ve been heavily involved in both flower and see some major differences between them.



Cordially,

Bill Maryott

Very interesting Polly. Daylilies are just outrageous. Several years ago I stopped buying them. If you're not careful you can get a small fortune tied up in them. I hardly even trade any more, because like he said... It ain't easy! Iris are a whole lot easier ... to grow, and to divide.

Interesting info, Polly.

Thanks av_ocd_girl. I agree, I just could not justify spending hundreds of dollars for a daylily. I wish they came down in price more quickly like irises do. I don't mind so much springing for a 20.00 iris a couple of years after intro.

Thanks EFGeorgia1, conserve maker extraordinaire!

This is VERY interesting Polly, I've wondered the same. Thanks so much for the info!

Certainly the dividing is more difficult with DL. But like some irises, DL colors can be reruns. I am perfectly satisfied with the DL which came out in the 80s, but not so for some of the iris. & look how much progress has been made by the Schafer/Sacks siberians. Not all irises are TBs.

Exactly, Lucy. I brought that up on the daylily forum. Siberians have come a long way. JIs don't seem to have.

One thing Polly mentioned on the DL thread is the foliage of the Sibs and JI which I have to concur is beautiful even when not in bloom and adds a lot to a mixed bed of other blooms or by itself. Until I started growing the ones she sent I had no idea they would look that good without bloom.

Great info. I grow both. The daylilies make a nice compliment to my iris beds after the irises are done blooming. I see them as filler though. They are beautiful but my true love is the irises. I am not willing to pay more than $5-6 for a daylily no matter how beautiful. I mostly shop Gilbert Wild for sales and get them at $3 or so. I am at the point of looking for a "nice tall orange, or spider yellow, or cream with purple" to put here or there. There just isn't that drive to go out and snap photo after photo when they are blooming.



Orangutan Orange- first bloom.

I love Daylilies. Have close to 75 varieties. I know that's not many, but it's enough for me. I love going out in the early morning and seeing what's blooming for the day. The problem with daylilies is they need so much water to really do well. I'm on a well, and so am limited to water thrifty plants for the most part.

One of my favorites.
'Julie Newmar'

pollyk,

You have raised a very thought-provoking question. Likewise, you, Bill Maryott, and others here have shared some interesting thoughts as to why this is the case. Below are some of my own ruminations on the subject:

(1) In recent years I have seen some iris intros priced in the $175 to $150 range. That still doesn't compare with the high end of daylily intro prices, but it may show a possible attempt to close the gap. The irises were Expose and One Small Step.

I 1st saw Expose when viewing photos a friend had taken at Missouri Botanical Garden. I just had to have it. Then I got it ID'd and went out to try to buy it, I found that it was only available from 1 maybe 2 sources and all at the same very high price. A few years later I was able to buy the plant for under $10. The same thing happened with One Small Step which originally appeared at a jaw dropping price and which I bought some years later for under $10.

(2) I have long wondered how people can afford to pay hundreds of dollars each for daylily plants. If I paid that for a plant, I would have to stay outside to cater to its every need and watch over it. Heaven forbid it should get sick and die. But that's just me. I have difficulty with the idea of paying such prices for something which might keel over and die.

(3) On the other hand, I do realize that hybridizers put a lot of time, energy, knowledge, and creativity into what they do, and like any other professional, they deserve to be appropriately compensated. It's something of a dichotomy in that while I agree that hybridizers need to be compensated, I cannot justify that kind of expense for a plant.

(4) I think the manner in which we seek to pay the hybridizers is the problem here. In the present system, hybridizers have to try to get their compensation from the early sales (before others are able to sell the plant and lower the price). This puts the responsibility for paying the hybridizer on the people who buy the plant the 1st year or so. These early buyers alone bare the cost of hybridization.

It would be much better, IMHO, if the cost of hybridization could be spread over the 'market life' of the plant in the form of royalties of some sort that would go to the hybridizers from all sales of the plant for the 1st x years, 10 maybe. In this way a very small sum tacked on to the sale of every plant could probably net the hybridizer a larger sum than they currently get and all while keeping the price of the plant relatively low (i.e., no need to pay $300 for a plant). I realize that such a plan may not really be feasible, but it would help to insure compensation for the efforts of hybridizers while simultaneously keeping the cost of each plant relatively low and stable.

(5) Lastly, I wonder if the answer to your original question (why daylily intros sell for such a high price relative to iris intros) isn't really that it's just a simple matter of how the prices were originally set. Maybe lily intros sell for such exorbitant prices because that's where some of the hybridizers set the prices and that, therefore, is what buyers came to expect. Conversely, maybe the real reason that iris buyers expect a lower intro price is simply that that's where hybridizers set the prices early on and thus what buyers came to expect. Maybe it's just that simple. It very well could be that if early iris hybridizers had set their intro prices equivalent to daylily into prices, buyers would accept those prices as the norm.

I wonder has anyone ever tried to set iris intro prices on the level with daylily intro prices and found buyers unwilling to tolerate this, or is it that iris sellers somehow just assumed their intros could be sold at such prices?

I think it is possible that iris intros could sell for hundreds of dollars just as daylily intros do, but only those iris which have something truly unique to offer - as was the case with Expose and One Small Step. Just another very pretty blue with a tad more ruffles probably won't cut it.

Just a few of my thoughts on the subject. Again, very interesting question.

Pollyk,

I find your posting beautifully written and very logical. Take it one step further. Let's say, there is a royalty on iris for the first 10 years. That is a ton of accounting and what steps would be taken if someone were to not honor the royalty agreement? Then there comes lawsuits across state lines??? All the fun goes when lawsuits enter the picture. Our talk on these sites could turn to scandal about who is suing whom. That would take alot out of what we might want as a genteel hobby. Gardening usually starts out for pleasure and I think it is a fight to keep it that way.

I guess my point is when the money part overshadows the hobby it stinks. Little guys wouldn't pursue the lawsuits no matter how valid due to expense, and the bigger guys would get to know attorneys more than they ever wanted to, etc.

It ain't broke so I say don't try to fix it. I think it is the way it is because that is how it evolved logically and practically over time.

This has been a verrrrrry interesting thread. I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

K

Very interesting subject. And although what Bill says makes sense, his compensation appears to be more than adequate. He develops a plant, over several years admittedly, one out of thousands probably, and introduces it. If he grows it out, most DL's multiply fairly well, especially where he is located. 1 plant becomes 10 becomes 100 becomes 1000 in just 4 or 5 years. At $150 each, even the 100 comes to $15,000 -- that is just for 1 plant. If he introduces 10 (which is common), that is $150,000. Maybe that isn't adequate compensation in his book, but it sure is in mine! The plants keep multiplying, and, law of supply and demand, the more supply, the price goes down. If they are introducing plants that DON'T multiply, that is a disservice to to public. I will pay $25-$50 for a plant, iris or daylily, but I want some assurance that plant will live and multiply. I depend on the hybridizers to develop plants like that. But I still think $150-$175 is just too much to pay. Bill also states that the new DL's are changing --so? One of the posters above stated it succinctly -- we just want something pretty. I'm glad to be part of the iris people who say "hey, you want a new intro, I'll break you off a piece next spring". I LOVE my iris and my iris friends. I like daylilies, too, but I definitely have the iris virus!

Sue - Taylorsville, KY

As far as the money goes mt thought is that is is expensive to do. You need the following.
1. LAND
2. STOCK PLANTS
3. WATER SOURCE
4. FERTILIZERS
5. HERBICIDES AND INSECTICIDES
6. BE RETIRED OR WELL ENOUGH OFF TO NOT WORK
7. HIRED HELP FOR THE GROWING, SEEDING, PLANTING, HARVESTING, DAILY CARE, CLEAN UP ETC.
8. PAY TAXES, SELF, EMPLOYEES, WORK COMP, UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, BUSINESS INSURANCE, GREENHOUSES, EQUIPMENT, OFFICE SUPPLIES, MORE PLANTS, FEES, LICENSE, DUES, WEBPAGE MANAGEMENT, UPKEEP, REPAIR OF ANYTHING BROKEN.
9. SOMETIMES HAVING TO PAY ANOTHER HYBRIDIZER FOR MAKING TETRAPLOIDS FROM DIPLOIDS, BAP TO HELP SPEED DIVISION AND OTHER SPECIAL NEEDS.

I agree it is a lot for some of the DL but others have a lot of added expense to get some of the awesome crosses they have developed and need to recover it somehow. It doesn't all go in the pocket, wish it did as it has cost me a small fortune to get started and i don't even begin to compare to the larger hybridizers.. If they come up with something spectacular in either Iris or Hems I think they have to get what they can while they can as most do go down quickly and they cannot recover enough monies to keep going. I think a lot of smaller Co. have dropped out the past few years as could not manage the rising costs of everything involved.

I understand the cringes when you see a high price but being in business of another type I see the costs no one else sees.

Hi I'm sneaking over here for a peak at the Iris side of the discussion. Interesting to hear what you guys think. I will confess that I am an unrepentant daylily lover. I am up to over 600. I will also say that I know nothing about Irises, but am willing to learn. I have no idea how fast they increase for one thing.

I wish that were the case, but unfortunately daylilies do not multiply that fast. I only started buying daylilies about 4 years ago, so none in my garden are that well established. I bought a single fan of one called West Virginia Tribute in 2007. In the last three years it has increased to 5-6 fans. I count myself lucky for it to have done so. I have some older varieties that I bought from Lowes or Home Depot that started out with 3 fans that are now up to nine or slightly more than that, but certainly not in the hundreds. I have never heard of a daylily increasing at the rate you describe, especially if you split them into single fans. Daylilies do not like to be singlets.

I also should say that a hybridizer might have to go through several hundred, possible over 1000 seedlings to get ten introductions. The plants would have been evaluated for several years, which requires garden space as well, before they were introduced.

This message was edited Sep 8, 2010 8:08 PM

Hi DitchLily, glad you came over. This has been such an interesting discussion!

I am amazed at the $175--$150 price for an iris. I have never seen it that high & would wonder about its rate of growth. The so called 'bonus iris' which are put out the first year are usually the best growers. Since I usually buy fairly new plants for judging/hybridizing purposes. I buy those plants when they are available the next yr. I don't have too many DL & the ones we have are very succesful.

I hadn't either Lucy, and I was very surprised to hear any irises went that high.

I always like getting the newer bonuses, as I know those are going to be the best growers.

The trouble is like Mid america--the new introductions cost is not included towards eligebility for 'bonus' so have to wait a yr. However, they are worth the wait. Seeing the very high price desribed I would be worried about the growth for them.

Decided to sneak over here from the Hem forum. Just as interesting here.

Can't remember where I read it but the cost of a new iris variety is based on availability and demand, plus cost. Consider that a new variety has to be old enough to be able to be divided, then spread around to growers.

Example, Schreiner offer bonus iris which were introduced the previous year. Most often, they will not bloom the following season. At least mine never did. Also, they are not offered for sale in their catalog the following year. Probably because there isn't enough to go around.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I find each iris nursery's different ways of handling introductions and bonus plants pretty interesting. Regarding Mid-America, for instance, even though their new introductions do not count in the total dollar amount toward their bonus plant introductions, they do have a separate discount program for their new introductions.

Purchase 3 of the same introduction, any class - 25 % discount
Purchase any 3-5 introductions - any class - 20% discount
Purchase any 6-10 introductions - any class - 25% discount
Purchase any 11-15 introductions - any class - 30% discount
Purchase 16 or more introductions - any class -35 % discount

Recently I've been getting 6 introductions for the 25% discount, so a $50 iris becomes $37.50 -- makes me feel much better! And since you can mix classes, and I do, the prices are a lot lower on some of them; and this is totally separate from their bonus plant program. The year after new irises are introduced, the prices of their former new introductions drop from $50 (or $60 on two or so of their many intros) to $30 or $32. So purchasing a new introduction one year before doesn't cost me that much more if I work within their discount program, and I get the plants one year earlier. Love it!

Schreiner's, on the other hand, does not have any discount program for their new introductions, and this year they raised their base price from $50 to $60 on most of their new introductions, with a couple raised to $75. Then they have the same basic bonus plant program as Mid-America, although i believe the amounts necessary to qualify for a bonus plant are different. And the next year the prices of their former introductions usually drop by only $5 to $10 rather than going from $50 to $30 as with Mid-America, although the plants do then qualify for their bonus plant program and drop by 50% if you order a certain amount -- so that's a good deal.

If you start comparing the different nurseries and their programs, they're all different. I find I am the most pleased when I order from the smaller independent hybridizers such as Keith Keppel and Joe Ghio. They both have a program where if you order three you get a special discount price, and if you order any new introduction at all they will send you another new introduction as a gift plant on top of that, and on up from there. And then, as if that's not enough, they throw in lots of really great bonus plants that might be from the last two years' introductions. Keith Keppel actually requests you give him a list of what you would like to get because he wants you to be happy with your gift plants. I believe just about all the other hybridizers besides the really big nurseries give you a free new introduction when you purchase one; and some of them are unbelievably generous -- Rockytop and Iris4U to name a couple. Alex Stanton and the guys at Superstition have been really generous too.

So when you think of what you get with your $40, $45, $50 or $60 new iris introduction purchase, I think you get quite a good deal from most of the hybridizers. And I haven't been purchasing daylilies for very long, but it seems to me that the daylily hybridizers are quite generous when you order even their older introductions -- at least that was my experience this year. Of course, I haven't even considered ordering a really expensive new daylily introduction to date, although I did just order MISS PIGGY and ALIEN FORCE from Jamie Gossard at Heavenly Gardens because he had a two-for-the-price-of-one sale and I couldn't resist (both for $150 -- ouch! But I really couldn't resist!). And when I placed my first order with Bill Maryott this summer I told him in my email that I really loved the look of his new STRIKINGLY DRAMATIC (his most expensive introduction -- $150), but I really needed to see if I could keep the ones I ordered alive before I tried something like that -- and I couldn't believe it, but he sent me a double fan of STRIKINGLY DRAMATIC as a bonus plant with my order! When I emailed him back to thank him, he responded that my previous email made him decide that I was probably a perfect person to try it out on. So I think these hybridizers are really very, very generous!

I think the reason Schreiner's is up there in pricing is because they have to maintain those incredible display gardens, gift shop, snack bar, etc., for visitors, and they have to have quite a large staff. And since I've been to those incredible gardens twice now, I do understand!

Oh, I understand Schreiners pricing too. They are an excellent company, and if you want a glossy catalogue, and a no fuss guarantee, you are going to pay a little more for it. They are a great business, and I don't mind paying a little more to them a bit.

Very interesting input Blomma, and Betty.