I. carnea and I. carnea ssp. fistulosa: Differences?

A question has come up amongst some of us in north Florida that are growing what we think is Bush Morning Glory (Ipomoea carnea http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/52996/ ). We would like to know the differences between I. carnea and I. carnea ssp. fistulosa (Swamp Morning Glory) http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/139641/ - no photos and not much info in Plant Files for I. carnea ssp. fistulosa).

It is important for us to know the differences between I. carnea and I. carnea ssp. fistulosa because I. carnea ssp. fistulosa is prohibited as an exotic invasive noxious aquatic plant by both federal and Florida state law, whereas I. carnea is not regulated.

I came across a JSTOR document that elucidates the differences between these two plants. I don't have JSTOR access on my computer, but our local library might have a JSTOR account whereby I can read the document. If anyone on this forum has JSTOR access and can provide any clearly discernable differences between the species and subspecies, or otherwise knows how to determine the differences, your input will be greatly appreciated.

We are growing the Bush Morning Glory plants as terrestrial garden plants, so an easy determination might be that I. carnea ssp. fistulosa requiresa swampy or boggy environment while I. carnea can grow on dry land, but I don't know if there is such a simple method to tell the difference between the species and subspecies.

Thanks greatly for any help you can provide!

Jeremy

Here are the links to the USDA website with accompanying photos.
Apparently the USDA is of the opinion there is a difference in the seeds as well as other plant parts


Ipomoea carnea seeds courtesy of USDA
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=IPCA5

Ipomoea carnea ssp.fistulosa main entry
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=IPCAF

fistulosa seeds and flowering plants
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=IPCAF&photoID=ipcaf_002_ahp.tif


Maybe you can check with the USDA for further clarification


This message was edited Sep 6, 2010 11:42 PM

Thanks, Emma! I know the taxonomists can find subtle differences which they consider important - such as the Spiderworts growing prolifically in my yard as native plants -- the difference between Tradescantia ohiensis and Tradescantia virginiana is merely that one has smooth sepals and the other has tiny hairs (can't remember which is which), but they all sure look alike to me without a magnifying glass! LOL

Jeremy

You are very welcome, Jeremy

Emma - Do you know what the leaf differences are? I know you grow some, too. Which ones are yours? Do they look like Jeremy's leaves?

See above edited post

Maybe you can get a clear answer out of the USDA
If so, let us know


This message was edited Sep 6, 2010 11:45 PM

I contacted Dr. Anderson and here is the reply I received:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the wild, the two forms are found in different habitats, with Ipomoea
carnea ssp. fistulosa found in wet sites and Ipomoea carnea ssp. carnea
in dry areas. In Florida, Ipomoea carnea ssp. fistulosa is a prohibited
aquatic plant. The prohibited plant can be distinguished from other
morning glories because it is a shrub, rather than a vine.

The two subspecies might be distinguished by leaf shape because
generally, Ipomoea carnea ssp. carnea has cordate leaves. Ipomoea carnea
ssp. fistulosa has lanceolate to lanceolate-ovate leaves.

If you have a plant and would like to have it identified, you can send a
sample to our office or you can email a photograph as a first step.
You'll find instructions for sending plant samples at
http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/enpp/botany/id.html.

Sincerely,

Patti J. Anderson, Ph.D.

Botany Section

Division of Plant Industry

Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And I inquired after seeing the seed photos and this is her follow-up reply:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Although you might see references on the web to both Ipomoea carnea ssp.
carnea and Ipomoea carnea ssp. fistulosa as bush forms, in fact, Ipomoea
carnea ssp. carnea grows as a vine and Ipomoea carnea ssp. fistulosa is
a shrub. The difference in growth form is the easiest way to distinguish
the subspecies.

I looked at seeds of both subspecies in our collection. The seeds of
Ipomoea carnea ssp. carnea have tangled, light (blond) hairs while
those of Ipomoea carnea ssp. fistulosa have darker, straight hairs.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,

Patti J. Anderson, Ph.D.
~~~~~~~~~~

So ... it appears that the cultivar that many folks grow that is bush form is prohibited in Florida. I found this surprising as I see this bush all over Florida used in landscaping. I also know of at least one seller that sells seeds in Florida and many others that sell seeds to people that live in Florida. This is also a species that is traded often to folks in Florida. So ... it looks like all these landscape I. carnea bushes grown in Florida are illegal?

I have never seen a photo of the vine form of this species.

Hi, Becky. Thanks for all the investigative work! As we both were researching further into this topic, I also began to fear that the Bush Morning Glory that I, and many others, find very appealing, does seem to be the prohibited I. carnea ssp. fistulosa. And that leaves me very perplexed because I've never seen any signs of the plant spreading by seed or vegetatively through its root system. The one plant that I have stays put, dies back in winter to the ground, and returns the next year in the same spot. Perhaps it is within the swampy locations that it expresses itself as a thug, but in my high and dry garden, it is very well behaved and doesn't demonstrate any tendencies to be invasive.

I still haven't had a chance to get by the local library to see if I can access the JSTOR publication that outlines the differences between I. carnea ssp. carnea and I. carnea ssp. fistulosa. I want to know absolutely for sure that I have the Swamp Bush Morning Glory before I relegate it to the compost heap.

I think that some of the Plant Files photos may be incorrect for I. carnea. The one photo for I. carnea ssp. fistulosa in Plant Files isn't clear enough to determine what the plant looks like. When I look at other photos online, I remain confused because there doesn't seem to be any indication whether the plant in the photos is vine-like or shrub-like since most photos show only the flowers and a few leaves.

Jeremy

This message was edited Sep 9, 2010 9:03 AM

Jeremy - I look forward to hearing what you might find out. I've never seen a plant like this prohibited. It is NOT like Kudzu or the Brazilian Pepper trees that spread everywhere! You are right. The ones I have seen stay put and don't spread in any landscapes. Or none that I have seen anyway. I don't believe I have ever seen it in the wild here in Florida. Have you? I find this perplexing too!

OOPS! My info above about I. carnea ssp. fistulosa seems to be incorrect. It is Ipomoea aquatica that is prohibited at the federal level. I've edited my post above to reflect this info.

Jeremy

Jeremy - Have you done any further research into the I. carnea from your end?

No, I still haven't had a chance to get to the library to read the scientific paper about the differences. I've been trudging away at remodeling and finishing the interior of my workshop/art studio and have barely taken any time off from that project. I will hopefully get a chance one day this week to get to the library. I am still very much interested in trying to find out what the differences between the two subspecies may be.

Jeremy

Speaking about accidentally causing the end of the world apocalypse, Woops, I found a seedling of my rosary vine jumped accross the street. I think the birds like to carry the red seeds around for fun, cause they can't eat them. We need to say our prayers to ask forgiveness.

Hi, John. I'm waiting for my Passiflora 'incense', the most invasive plant I've ever put in the ground, to pop up on the other side of the paved road in front of my house. It has already managed to send roots about 150 ft from the original planting site and traversed the area beneath my house where there is absolutely no sunlight and nothing but sterile sand. I don't know why every warm climate on the Earth is not already smothered in Passiflora 'incense', but I imagine that it will be someday. And yet, this vine doesn't appear on the Florida invasive plants list.

As for the I. carnea vs. I. fistulosa research, I discovered our local library does not have JSTOR access. Two of my friends are instructors at the University of North Florida, which does have JSTOR access. I will ask one of the friends to print out the article for me. Emma gave me a contact for a Ipomoea expert, but I haven't had a chance to follow up on that lead, so I remain in the dark as to which shrub morning glory plant I have in my yard.

Jeremy

It looks like the Jim Jones cult has arrived..lol, they say watch what you ask for, you might jsut get it. lol

LOL! So many invasive plants in Florida! We have an ideal climate for many plants!!!

I am growing just about everything in containers these days. I happen to have the "Incense" Passiflora vine growing in a container and also another that I know would be invasive - the Cashmere Bouquet bush (Clerodendrum bungei). Both in containers to keep the runners in check! Love these plants though, but not turned loose in my yard! They would multiply exponentially!!! I also restrict the seed production as well. I don't need a million of them growing all over my neighborhood. The containers keep them quite a bit smaller too, which makes them manageable and easier to grow & appreciate. :-)

We should start a thread about

Florida Invasive Plants

The Bush morning glory was a first for me this year. Got a few cuttings from a trade, but I think they will grow from seed also. In spring they struggled because of the beatles and shield bugs tried to suck the life out of them. I tried some d-syston but that didn't scare them away, so everyday I would hand-pick the bugs off. Then all of a sudden in July the small black ants found the plants and immediately there were no more bugs, just a few ants running up and down the stems. No aphids either, because the ants are looking for some nectar probably oozing from the young buds. I just checked today and the ants are still there at the tips, standing-guard over the plants. The blooms started after 2' and now the stalks are 5' and are full of blooms and buds. Blooms are a truly feminine pink. Each Bloom lasts one day. I grew them in 10 gallon pots and also moved a couple plants to the sandy soil where they are not-so-happy. Possibly NOT a strong root system? No seeds forming yet, but maybe when the cool weather comes they will set some. Next year I will pinch the stems early and predict a more bushy habit. This is the pic from late July with some of the first blooms.

John - Sounds like those MG Bushes do get quite big for you! Very pretty blooms!

I can't wait to read what Jeremy finds out about this bush concerning it being grown in Florida.

These can get quite tall. I'm 5'8 and mine stands several feet over my head now.
I've never had a problem with it spreading somewhere it shouldn't. Nor reseeding and popping up where they shouldn't, unlike vineing MG's

These can get quite tall. I'm 5'8 and mine stands several feet over my head now. I've grown it for several years, has come back from freezes exactly where I left it, I've never had a problem with it spreading somewhere it shouldn't. Nor reseeding and popping up where they shouldn't, unlike vineing MG's

A closer look at the blooms

Hey mj, Looks like you fertilized or sprayed or maybe you got black muck in your soil?

LOL...well, this happens to be one of the sandiest spots in the yard. Water disappears w/o a trace, so I mulch heavily. Actually it is one of the most abused plants in the garden. I occasionally go out there and give it "left over's" of what ever I happen to be fertilizing with at the time. I think that's the trick, don't give it "too much love"...hey your not that far away you should come visit sometime. I'm watching the radar, looks like all $%& is going to break lose but I bet it goes right around me....Again !

Us Floridians sure need the rain. My plants were smiling today because of the rain! I always get lots of blooms after a good rain. :-)

I'm still interested to get more information about the I. carnea bushes from Jeremy!

Well, the rain did go around me......again ...........errrrrrrrrrrrr

I got a lot of rain yesterday and I understand more is expected today. I hope my son can get out and mow the yard before it comes. The grass is getting tall! It's nice to see everything green again! We had a dry summer.

Sorry to keep everyone waiting about the comparisons and differences of the shrub morning glories, but I've been distracted (a usual situation for me LOL) by finding a free-standing above-ground swimming pool available on Craig's List, with the caveat being that the person that receives the pool has to dismantle it. I was not expecting the pool to be about 30 ft by 25 ft and 5 ft deep. After a few days of dedicated effort, I have just about gotten the thing into manageable parts. All of this work just to satisfy a desire by my wife to have a swimming pool! She had better appreciate the labor and accept it as the gift for her upcoming birthday next week, Christmas, and a few anniversaries and holidays in years to come. LOL

Jeremy

7.48 gallons per cubic foot
x30
x25
x5
28,050 gallons

that's alot of rain water!

POOL / BIRTHDAY PARTY @ JEREMY'S!!! ~~LOL~~

Everyone bring a gallon of water!!! **LOL**

LOL! Too bad the pool wasn't already up in your yard ... with all the rain we've had the past few days, it probably would've filled up the pool! :-)

I am soooo loving the rain!!! Saving on the water bill!!!!

I grew this one with the rounder leaves in CA and have not had the one with the pointy leaves.

Does anyone have seeds for the White flowered one? I'd love to get some and pink too, I think I only have one seed of each left from my CA days. I'm sure I can find something to trade.

Edited to add the name Sue, (I don't want anyone thinking I'm addressing everyone)

Sue,

I was referring to this statement made by AkopopaJohn:

""Speaking about accidentally causing the end of the world apocalypse""

I'm sorry if I offended anyone belonging to these cults.

This message was edited Oct 3, 2010 10:06 AM

Not offended here about a little humorous chit chat referring to "world apocalypse" or "Jim Jones cult", but I don't belong to any cults and I don't get upset when someone mentions the world apocalypse, so ...

But I know that some folks get offended more by a comment like this one:
ApopkaJohn wrote:
"I was getting tired of all the look-alike mg pics until that giant showed up! Hey Robbie, did you prune or pinch the vine to get it to pop a big one?"
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=8110403

John showed us his blooms and grows the plant of discussion on this topic which produces the same bloom from each bud, many of us didn't feel like our mg pics are look-alikes and some did take offense. But no one complained.

Sue - Would love to see some of your MG photos! :-)

This message was edited Oct 3, 2010 11:31 AM

??????? You lost me there!

Yes, please show us pictures, and get this thread back on track. Sounds like you must have some great stuff growing too. We would love to see them. Please join in the fun.


A.

This message was edited Dec 1, 2010 1:27 AM