Rudbeckias - annual or perennial?

I planted 3 Mayas last year that were supposed to be perennial, but none returned. This year I started many varieties from seed, such as cherokee sunset, autumn colors, irish eyes, and a few others. I'd like to know whether to expect them to return (zone 6a) or not. Plantfiles has all listed as both annual and perennial, so is no help. It also lists them as hardy to zone 5a. I've seen seeds and plants advertised some places as annual, some places as perennial.

Can someone with experience growing these please tell me if they're annual or perennial? (I'm not asking about black-eyed susans).
Thanks.

Online information is confusing, isn't it? I think many of them are annuals. If you let them die back naturally and completely go to seed in the fall there's a high chance that some of the seeds will produce new plants in the spring.

Thanks, amorecuore. I was suspecting as much, but if that's the case, lots of nurseries should be fined for false advertising.

Does anyone know of any that are perennial?

My Autumn colors returned for the first time this year, usually I plant seeds every year.
Minnesota (zone 4) had an early spring this year, (the farmers started planting 10 days earlier than they normall do), so maybe the early warming had something to do with them returning.

I know that Rudbeckia "Goldsturm" is definitely a perennial. It never completely dies back down here and returns with blooms in the spring. I planted a few at my parents house in NY State last summer and they returned in 2010. I'm not sure about all the other ones. I pull them out when they start getting ugly looking in the fall, so I never give them a chance to return. The growing season never ends down here in South Florida, so it would look strange to see these half dead plants in the garden all year. I pull them out and replace them with other flowers during the winter months.

Sometimes a plant can be an annual in one place and a perennial in others. Gaillardias are an annual down here and a perennial up North. Gerbera daisies, coleus, marigolds, geraniums, some zinnias, etc, etc are annuals up North and perennials down here. Weird huh?

I've been drooling over some particularily well grown R. hirta Moreno and R. hirta Cherokee at a local garden center here. They want $24.99 for a 2 gallon container of each. I just happened to looked these up online yesterday looking for a price break.

Bluestone lists these as:

The problem is finding all the different kinds of Rudbeckia seeds you want to try on one website. That's hard to accomplish. Most of mine came from www.superseeds.com, www.swallowtailgardenseeds.com and www.parkseed.com.

If you don't mind me recommending a new variety, Rudbeckia "Cappuccino" has become my favorite this summer. It grows and self branches very well from seed, and produces nice large multicolored 4 inch blooms. Here's a photo of one of my "Cappuccino" plants.

Jon

Thanks for the Bluestone quote, au. I think that really probably sums it up accurately. The original plant might occasionally return if you're lucky, but they're really annuals with a propensity to self-seed. I did get my 3 mayas last year from Bluestone, but maybe forgot to read the fine print.
I sure wouldn't pay $25 for an annual toward the end of season, or anytime actually!

I got all of my rudbeckia seed in the annual "Fall Frenzy Piggy Seed Swap" on the Cottage Gardening forum. Sign-up should be sometime around September or after. You post what seeds you have, and "oink" for seeds that you want. I've already collected lots of kinds of seed in preparation. It's great fun.

amore, I looked up your :Goldsturm", and it looks like the original black-eyed susan, which I know is perennial. Maybe that's part of what confused me into thinking that the other rudbeckias were perennial too.

Jon, I went away from the computer in the middle of my reply, so didn't see your last post. I think I have cappucino, or very similar anyway. I have a bunch of different ones planted together, and am hoping they will cross-pollinate, so I'll get to see some new ones next year .

One of several Irish Eyes that I started in 2009 from seeds came back this year. Since I didn't expect any of them to return, it was a real treat. I will be sure to save its seeds for next year.

Perhaps you might have "Autumn Colors" which is a bit similar to Cappuccino. Cappuccino was just released in 2009 for the first time along with Cherry Brandy. Irish Eyes is a nice one, that's for sure. Also have that one down here. Looked like it was dying after first flush of blooms, but it's making a comeback with new green growth. It's very similar to "Prairie Sun", but with longer/slender/narrow petals. I'd really like to try Rudbeckia "Goldquelle", but I can't find it anywhere. Personally I'm not all that wild about "Goldsturm" with it's small blooms. What makes it desirable is its reliability.

I'm not all that crazy about the old black-eyed susans either.
Just found a few pics of some from the piggy swap. I didn't check their name tags.

another

another. I really like these multi-layered ones.

They're both very very nice. They may be "Cherokee Sunset" and "Autumn Colors"??? Hard to tell since both of them them but out blooms that differ from plant to plant.

How strange. I don't seem to be able to post any more.

Those sound like names of seeds I got, so you're probably right.

Chimchiminee

Self-seeded offspring are often crossed with other varieties, the resultant offspring can be quite unique.

this one is way out

You can see the Chimchiminee influence in this one.

fuller flower

I'm so glad you posted, jmorth! You always have the most fabulous and unusual crosses.
I love the "way out" one.
How many (%?) of your plants return the following year? Or are they mostly self-seeded? And are they cross-pollinated by the bees, or do you do some cross-pollinating yourself?

Those self seeded "volunteers" are great. Have heard you can get some neat/very unique looking ones.

Returnee rate is low though usually a few (probably determined by the degree and severity of ground heaving due to freeze cycles). I add some new plants (from seed) every few years; most are self-seeded. The crosses are all natural by nature's pollinator's. I think the self-seeding works best if the ground around the plants is mulch free.
The Chimchiminee above is from seed this year as are the following couple of posts.

from seed

my favorite rudbeckia pic, from '06

from 08

Perennial stand - expands yearly and flower display is of long duration.

Thanks for the info and great pics. I'm going to be sure there's no mulch in that area and scatter a whole bunch of seed from my plants and hope for the best. Think I might find some chimchiminee seed too. I really like those crosses and it's great to have surprises.

Thompson and Morgan United States Site has many rudbeckias. They are mostly under "Annuals".

Here in zone 5 mine usually do not come back.

I worked in nurseries where they plant up these plants in large containers and sell them as if they are perennials(for a high price). Every chance I got, I did advise the customers(educated) that these plants would most likely not return. That is really annoying when plants are sold as perennials and in reality, there is no way they will come back in zone 5. That is one of my pet peeves.
Usually the "new" gardener is taken in by the beauty and doesn't do any homework regarding hardiness...I think that is why so many people think they cannot grow anything.

Sometimes the nurseries, that grow for the big box stores, just put whatever plant tags they have left on the plants, whether they're correct or not. Last week at Lowes I saw these very nice square planters of Rudbeckias. The plant tag said "Rudbeckia Autumn Colors". There is no way it was "Autumn Colors". It was definitely "Tiger Eye". I'm 100% sure it was "Tiger Eye".

Hmmm... What was I thinking? I've never grown Rudbeckia from seed before and I was thinking I could start them this late summer for next year because they're perennials. I planted two trays of Rudbeckia Cappuccino about 5 weeks ago. It was my intention to transplant them later this fall into a permanent location for next summer blooms. The plants are about 5-6 inches tall and they still have about 65 to 75 days to grow before the first freeze. Is there any chance these rudbeckia plants will survive the winter here in West Virginia? Our winter temperatures sometimes fall to about 5 degrees below zero with possibly a few colder nights down to 10 or 15 below. I guess I got carried away while I was planting blanket flowers, hollyhocks, fox glove and dames rocket in seed trays for next year. I know from experience those plants winter over fine here.

I'd just go ahead and let them grow and see what happens next year. As a backup plan you could always winter sew some seeds from blooms next summer. That way you have all the possibilities covered.

I found an article about Rudbeckia Hirta , Gloriosa Daisies, in Garden Gate Magazine, August 2010.

They call them short lived perennials that can be grown as annuals. They list Cherokee Sunset as zone 5-8;Double Gold-zone 4-8; Maya, zone 3-8; Cappuccino, zone 5-8; Cherry Brandy, zone 5-8; Denver Daisy, zone 5-9; Prairie Sun, zone 3-8; and Tigereye Gold, zone 11-12.

Even if they are hardy in your area, they tend only to live a few years. So save seeds or alllow the plants to reseed.

They're definitely annuals here in Zone 10. They're quite easy to grow in Zone 10 so not sure why none of them are listed for Zone 10. I guess you never know if you don't give things a try, right?

I'm not too familiar with "heat" zones, the article says that they are most heat tolerant in AHS zones 9 to 1???

I usually don't pay attention to heat zones because we don't get too hot except for this summer!!!!

I think it's referring to hardiness zones. I didn't initially realize it's the minimum winter temperatures, in an area, that determine the zones from one place to another. An example would be Ft Lauderdale, FL being Zone 10 and Phoenix, AZ being a slightly cooler Zone 9. Phoenix is usually 10-20 degrees warmer than here in the summer. The reason its listed as a lower numbered/cooler zone is because it's minimum temperatures, in the winter, can be in the 20's.and frost is a very rare occurrence here in Ft Lauderdale. The lower the zone number is directly related to how cold it typically can get in your area in the winter.

Just lurking. Saw Parks given as a reference above. Just a heads up... Parks/Wayide/Perkins roses are in bankrupcy protection right now and are planning on putting out a catalogue just for Perkins (from what the news article read). I would caution against buying any plants if you wish to have a guarantee honored. Seeds are seeds and are guaranteed, I think, only to sprout. But plants are supposed to be guaranteed for a year, though I stopped buying from Wayside and Parks a while ago due to quality issues.