HOW big of a Hole??

I know that when planting new tree and shrubs the rule of thumb is to dig a hole the same depth as the root ball and make the hole 2 or 3 times wider. I ALWAYS make a hole 5X as wide but rarely any deeper than the ball.

The depth I always figured was due to two factors. One being whats the point of digging up to much subsoil and two being to prevent the plant from settling in too deeply.

Basically what I am asking is why NOT dig a 5X hole and make it 2X deeper than the pot and then just bring it back up to grade??

PS.. Plus I really like digging holes. I have holes dug for next spring where they molder waiting for an inhabitant. Big holes filled with semi finished compost loaded with worms and a fish tote of seaweed forked in with the native soil make for a fine hole in a year...

Better to have a hole and not need it then need a hole and not have it.

If you dig up or loosen soil deeper than the rootball of the plant you are installing, then you stand to have the soil "settle" and your plant ends up below grade or below the level you intended. You have stated you understand why that is not desirable.

So - in order to "bring it back up to grade" when you've dug deeper than the rootball, you would have to compact that same soil to the density that it was before you dug it up, in order for it not to settle. And I say: What is the point in that?

So, save yourself the trouble of excessive unnecessary depth of digging, and plow all your efforts into the widening of loosened soil, since that's where the majority of rooting action is. It sounds like you do a yeoman's (or yeowoman's? yeoperson's?) job of that already.

Oh, God, Viburnum Valley, PLEASE don't say "what's the point?"! Roots, that's sort of an inside joke - someone in another thread became very disturbed by that term.

Anyway . . .

VV, this may start a war (I'm up for that - heh, heh!) BUUUUT . . . the new thought is: do NOT dig the hole any wider than the root ball. The rationale behind this is that you do not want the plant to like the fluffy, nice soil too much and stay there - and girdle its roots in that area (i.e., roots go around in circles). You DO want the plant to immediately get accustomed to the NATIVE soil - perhaps giving it a boost with some nice fertilizer high in phosphorus (although that's come under fire lately as the the main root growth promoter - another story)

Roots, you are absolutely correct in not putting the plant below grade (unless it's a tomato!) EVER! When in doubt, place slightly above grade or the crown may rot.

Happy Planting, Roots!!

No war here - but I'm going to laugh out loud at whomever is promoting the "new thought".

I bet they don't dig a little spoon hole in their yard and drop a tomato seed in it, and expect to grow anything to eat.

NOTICE: Digging a really wide hole (read: loosened soil) does not equal non-native soil.

Please - share the purported source of said wisdom.

Hah Sherriseden!! Digging a hole only as wide and deep as the plant is how landscapers plant stuff when your not looking. Just big enough to slide it in and mulch over it and know one will ever know.

I work in a lot of native soil just so I can avoid the plant becoming overly accustomed to the sweet stuff. Plus I do many of my "holes" for trees and shrubs the prior season in anticipation of getting something I don't have. These "holes" in waiting get alot of 5 gallon buckets of the thickest darkest tea of death you have ever seen. Sure wouldn't put it on a plant but the holes LOVE it..

Whats the POINT Viburnum?? Like it matters? JK and I really did have one. If I dig deeper and fork and amend the hardpack subsoil I just figured things with longer tap roots would appreciate it and the shallow rooted stuff wouldn't suffer. My holes are so wide it is easy to bring the grade up and not worry to much about settling.

I planted Dad's ashes in the back yard under a Stewartia Koreana and I gave the old guy a $500.00 dollar hole and spent the last couple of years root pruning it so a bobcat with forks could come and lift it a foot for me.

VV, the term "native soil" can refer to both its chemical/organic constitution as well as its STRUCTURE. When you loosen it, the structure is not as it normally is in the environment. As to your other question . . . here are two links:

http://www.hollysocam.org/PDF/growing/HLA-6414web.pdf
and
http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1505/eb1505.html

Both state the hole should only be large enough to accommodate the roots without twisting or crowding. WSU extension goes a bit further to address the amendment controversy, stating the amendments encourage roots to stay in the ameded soil. Note last sentence in the paragraph just after figure 1: "The greater the difference between the structure and texture of the soil in the planting hole and that of the native soil, the greater the possibility of problems."

Thats akin to HERESY sherri!!! The plants have to love my holes! They are great ones just overflowing with nutrients and native soil..

I will say that when they are replanting a burn or a clear cut or doing CPR work they basically use one tool to make a spot big enough for the plant. I wish I could remember what they called the tool but I'm still reeling from finding out all my efforts at loving my plants has been in vain. I think a single guy in a crew can plant 1000 pines in a day. Takes me a week just to dig ONE hole. Sigh!!!!!!

Sherri can I at least fork and loosen the native dirt?? Does planting in a small hole with just the native soil negate the need to ever amend anything except leaf litter on the surface for years?? Nature really doesn't need much help from us. What the heck, I'm still having fun.

Oh, Roots, you are so funny!! YES . . . fork and loosen all you want.

I did the 5X wide and fully amended hole for years and I've also done the just wide enough hole. And you know what? Plants are very resilient. We silly humans can go round and round about the fine points and plants will simply deal with most adversity and make it because - this is important - they are "hardwired" to thrive. It's actually not THAT easy to kill a plant. You can stunt it, make it reach "too" far for sun, or scorch it, but it will usually try to overcome obstacles and LIVE! Just like us . . .

Roots, I need to clarify what I found about the hole size and amendments . . .

First, I remembered where I first heard about this: a book called The Tree Doctor. I went back to that book and see the author recommends a hole 2 to 3 times the WIDTH of the root ball and no amendments. Then, I took a good look at the literature I sent a link for and the OSU states "wide enough to prevent root crowding" for bare root and 2 to 3 times the root ball width for B&B and container plants. The other, from Washington State, says "slightly wider" for bare root and at least 2 X wide for container and B&B. All say forgo amendments in the backfill and have top of root ball at or slightly above grade. Amending the entire area, though, is always good.

So . . . there you have it! Happy planting!

Roots,
I'd be happy to have you come dig holes in my yard, if you run out of things to do in your own...

Not likely my Mainiac friend!! Knowing of your quarries and the nick-name of your neighboring state I'm gonna pass. When the glaciers came through they pushed the rocks right out of Maine and left them in my backyard anyway.

I did dig a couple of fine holes tonight though!! I plan on adding some grafted Paw Paw next spring and they are noted for a long tap root. So I HAVE to dig a good hole to give that tap a place to go!!

I actually have a plan to fool them Sherri. I left a big pile of NATIVE soil next to todays X2 holes but really amended the remaining with rotted seaweed and a barrow of compost. I figure when I plant next spring I'm gonna plant it in pure native soil but if it gets though the wall of native into the good stuff than it won't be able to help loving it. That way I can still dig a $5.00 hole but plant in just plain ole dirt.

PS.. I'm having some drainage issues in one location and Gypsum is not gonna do it so I'm going deep!! I'll beat this hole! The hole in the pic now has three bushels of seaweed in it. I'm gonna rot through the hardpack. *&^%^

You are crafty! Keep us posted on how it all plays out next spring!! : )