MG Frame

This year I went through my MG seeds and picked out all of the oldest and grew them all together on a large frame I built out of PVC .. they were pretty late in blooming and finally started in the last 2 weeks. Here are the ones I've planted:

Good Morning
Blue Silk
Rose Silk
Yellow Trumpet
Platycodon Blue
Hanahubuki
Purple Feathers

I'm sequestering some the night before they open and hand pollinating so I can be sure of some purebred seeds. Can't wait til next year to see what kind of crosses I get from the non sequestered ones.

Here is a picture of the frame.

Hanahubuki

Rose Silk

Platycodon Blue

Sunsmile - Sunsmile is strange .. it's not climbing hardly at all and staying really bushy!

As more come online I'll post pictures.

X

X - Nice photos! You always post some great shots! :-)

The Sun Smiles variety is typically a mounding MG, not a climber. Which makes it perfect to grow in containers or hanging baskets! I love your deep purple-blue variety you are currently growing. I am also attempting the same idea about growing out some of my oldest seed stock. But I have to grow any possible interesting crosses this season, too! :-D I like the frame you built! Pretty neat! Looks like the vines are finding it a perfect place to grow and climb!

Thanks .. I had no idea there were mounding MG's.

X

There is also a new weeping MG I. nil cultivar that is way cool, too! It's a new one from Japan called Sidare. I think I may be getting teacup/miniature vines from some of the seeds of my Sidare.

X - I thought I saw somewhere here on DG that you posted instructions on how to create your MG Frame. If so, could you please post a link in this thread so folks can learn how you made it?

It was really easy to make and movable as it's not in the ground .. bricks and heavy pots on the horizontals to hold it down.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=7816481

That Sidare is pretty .. I'm thinking I'll definitely do Sun Smile next year in my window boxes with some geraniums.

X

X - Sunsmiles are dwarfs, and more of creepers than climbers. When I've had them in Hanging baskets they don't try to climb "Up" like other Mg's but trail down nicely.

mj-
Please tell me now you have fertilized Sunsmiles. I have a Picotee mix and Kikyo Lace in a hanging basket, and they have barely grown at all. They have been sitting there for a month. I used water soluble flower fertilizer on them one time.

Cibarius,
first let me ask you, have you noticed any small "gnat" looking insects around your plants ? I only ask this as fungus gnats love MG;s and they can stunt the growth. Other than that, make sure our using a good quality potting mix, and your not over/under watering them. Other than that I use a balanced pelleted fertilizer for "potted plants" Osmacote or Dynamite, just make sure it's ok for "Potted Plants"...
Once their up and going I switch to a bloom buster, but I'm still learning on how often/much to apply. the folks in the MG forum are much better educated than I am on that front.

Doug - There is definitely something going on with your babies. What growing medium are they in? They look like they are not getting the right nutrients. Are you growing them in a pine fines mix? If so, that might be your problem. Or they need more fertilizer, though I don't think that is it...

It might be easier to just start a new seed? Maybe this one was a dud from the word go.

I think gerris is right.....maybe just start over with new seed.

Maybe ... but he started two seeds, as you can see in his photo. I personally think something else is the problem instead of 2 dud seeds. I am wondering if the potting mix is the problem.

It is not unusual to have dud seeds, especially if you did not grow them yourself and do not know the previous storage conditions such as what happens in the big seed exchange you all had last year. It is easier just to start one more in soilless potting mix in a very small container, ensure you have a strong seedling going and then transplant one into the small hanging basket (Two vines in a pot that size may be too many).

The first thing I though when I saw the picture was "that's the wrong kind of potting mix". I use a peat based mix called ProMix BX. I've had seedlings go comatose before. If it lasts longer than a month then I'll repot them into fresh mix and that usually wakes them up - if that doesn't do it I'll spritz em up with GA3 at 100ppm. That never fails.

Also, I always start my seeds no matter what they are in small pots to start with. Once they get at least 3 sets of true leaves then I transplant them and I've never had any plants go comatose from crowding. The odds of three separate seedlings going comatose at the same time are pretty slim .. I think it's the chemistry of the soil that their roots are in that is inhibiting their growth.



This message was edited Jul 19, 2010 8:46 AM

Interesting comments- The planting mix I am using could be characterized as ground pine bark and maybe a few other things, but no added fertilizer. Is lack of fertility the only problem with this kind of medium? My idea was to get an affordable one and add my own fertilizer. This hanging basket was just a quick gesture toward setting out one more MG in a different location. I intended to remove the less successful plant. But they are apparently both less successful. I can likely afford some premium mix for a small container.

Doug

Doug - My experience with Pine Fines is the acidity level. I've tried using it myself and my plants were dwarfed like yours appear to be. Once I transplanted them into a regular potting mix they regained their composure and grew quite nicely. The longer they stay in the pine fines, the more severe and less reversable the effects of too much acidic exposure.

I don't believe it is the seeds/plants. I think everyone in the Group Seed Swap was very generous and sent some wonderful seeds for everyone to enjoy! I haven't heard from anyone who had a problem with any of the seeds they received. But sometimes there are seeds that aren't viable or are unhealthy. Rarely, but it can happen as nature may dictate. The fact that there are two seedlings in your pot and neither is doing well does strongly suggest it is the potting medium that you are currently using. It would be interesting to transplant those babies into a different potting mix and see if they recover. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I guess it underscores the fact that adding more fertilizer is not always the remedy for problems when growing these vines.

X-
What does ProMix BX cost? When buying an expensive mix I usually get a Scott's product.

What is GA3 and where do you get it? It doesn't sound organic to me!

Thanks

In my experience, when I grow MGs, mine seem to grow and bloom faster when Bloom Booster (or other bloom) fertilizer is used. Many folks enjoy growing the I. nils as well as the I purpureas, like me ... which afterall are annual vines. I believe that is why I get such fast growing vines as well as lots and lots of blooms and often quite a nice production of seeds.

The high phosphate in any bloom fertilizer promotes not only blooms, but encourages growth of a plant's root system. I also use Fish Emulsion (yeah ... it's stinky for a day! lol), but it seems to provide a good source of Nitrogen to promote foliage growth, without burning the plants in the heat of summer. I've had success year after year using these two products mixed together in water and poured around the ground above the roots of my vines or any flowering plant I am growing every 2-3 weeks. I see buds form within 2 weeks using that regime. And it keeps the blooms coming. The down side might be that the vines have a shorter growing period because they are so robust so fast! It seems like they live life in the fast lane! LOL!

For those of you that live in the North where your growing period is much shorter, this might be a good advantage to get the vines moving along faster. And for me, it allows me to grow MG vines back to back and sometimes even a 3rd group of vines before the weather gets too cold to grow my favorite MG ... I. nils!

You also need blooms to produce seeds for future grow-outs and/or trading/sharing with your friends! I find that bloom fertilizers speed the growth of blooms which in turn may speed seed production! How wonderful to share seeds of a vine that you loved ... with others! That's better than any photo or verbal/written description posted online! Give others the actual experience of seeing the beauty of your vine up close and personal by getting seeds from you and growing it themselves! I've been trading for years! I enjoy trading/sharing my vines with others as that is part of the pleasure of growing anything ... sharing your plant!! :-) :-) :-)

I am trying something new this year ... cuttings from my I. nils rooted in water. I receive "rare" seeds on occasion which sometimes ARE rare because the vines tend to be partially or completely sterile. If they are partially sterile, then they have to be crossed with another vine. When mine are partially sterile, usually the blooms are not producing pollen. I can use the pollen from other blooms (of the same species) to produce seeds. I (and many others) have gotten some amazing crosses by doing that! :-) :-) :-)

This is just my personal regime. I am sure everyone has their own regime. If you have had great success, I'd love to hear how you do it!

You posted while I was writing. :-) I, too, am wondering what GA3 is.

I have heard positive things about ProMix potting mix. It is sold here at nurseries, but it is cost prohibitive for me because I grow most of my MGs in 5 gallon containers. Being a better quality of potting mix it is more expensive. But if you are just growing a few in pots/hanging baskets ... it might be worth it to pick up a bag!

Thanks X, for your tips!

I have received personal observations from Japanese growers of these vines that too much fertilizer actually has a negative effect on seed production.

Take your pick, everyone.

Joseph - I have had excellent seed production from my vines unless it is a cultivar that tends to be partially or completely sterile to begin with. Some of the vines I have already grown this year were somewhat sterile to begin with and the production of seeds was considerably lower for those which is probably why those cultivars are listed as "rare", but for all the others ... I collected at least 100-200 seeds from each vine. Since I only want seeds for trading, that amount of seeds is plenty for me. Collecting, cleaning, tagging, and bagging seeds is also quite time consuming, so I am personally very happy to keep the number of seeds under 200. :-)

If you compare the cost of all that high Phosphorus fertilizer with the cost for a bag of compost, the choice should be clear for the grower on a tight budget.

Joseph - Interesting thought. Hmmmm ... a 1 1/2 lb. box of water soluble BB costs less than $5.00 and a 1 gallon bottle of Fish Emulsion runs about $20. I usually go through 2 or 3 boxes of the BB per growing season since I use it on ALL of my blooming plants, not just my MGs. (That's about 100+ plants each time I fertilize.) The gallon jug of Fish Emulsion lasts me the entire season to also fertilize all the same plants. I do on occasion pick up a bag of compost for my roses. I prefer to buy the better brand of compost compared to the cheaper compost and it runs about $5.00 a bag. I have to be careful here when I use it because of the heat in Florida. Compost tends to burn my tender plants during summer. It also will get moldy if I don't use it all up right away.

An inch of compost on the container shouldn't burn plants...how do you apply it?

Oh my! I wouldn't apply an inch! Way too much here. Usually I just sprinkle a handful under my rose bushes. Too much compost around perennials causes the the soil/potting mix to compact which makes it difficult for roots to grow and spread. Compost is very heavy, especially when wet.

Ace hardware orders the ProMix BX for me every December I get 4, 3 cubic foot bales at around $35 dollars a bale .. (don't buy it in bags it IS absurdly expensive that way). .. you just mix it with water .. it's extremely light and very root friendly and perfect for hanging baskets. For plants going into a large contaner - more than 3 gallons I'll mix it 50 50 with that lousy "topsoil" that Lowes sells for fill.

GA3 is giberellic acid. It's a growth hormone. You can do a lot of neat things to plants with it at different dilutions. Its also good for starting stubborn seeds and can force plants to bloom early or grow faster. The trade off is elongation of stems which can become brittle. You have to be very judicious in using it. It took me about 2 years of experimenting with dilutions on guinea plants/pigs to where I was getting it right.

Forgot to add that GA3 is a plant growth hormone so it is organic. I'm sure you've all noticed that when you cut the top off of a plant the side shoots start growing. The tips of growing stems contain an anti-GA which suppresses growth down the line.

X

This message was edited Jul 20, 2010 8:40 AM

X - Thanks! I never looked into the GA3. Or thought about buying ProMix in 3 cu foot bales. Any idea how much potting mix you get after adding water? In other words, does it expand once wet?

It doesn't expand much I just fill whatever pot I want with the dry stuff plus about a cup more then wet it. I use it over and over too if whatever was in the pot wasn't diseased or buggy .. I have a large bucket that I dump used promix in and generally use it for as I said above, mixing with other stuff or repotting plants that got too big for their pots.

X

Thanks so much! Great information, X! I enjoy hearing what others are using that gives them wonderful success! Reusable mix is certainly a plus!!! :-)

Here is what it looks like.

X - I am glad you posted a photo! I recognize the bag! They sell it like that at one of my local nurseries. I'll have to check the price.

I make up my own mix and add some Moisture Control potting mix in mine because of the heat factor here. I also use some pine fines to keep the soil from breaking down too fast, but not enough to be too acidic. And I love perlite and vermiculite! With a little compost and peat thrown in for good measure! LOL! Looks a little like what I see in the ProMix potting mix. :-)

I've always heard good review about ProMix! :-)

J.L. Hudson - http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/GibberellicAcid.htm - is a source/how-to-use GA-3, as well as a retail and bulk source of seeds, and also functions as a seed exchange. I especially love the knowledge of economic/cultural attributes he writes for many of his seeds.

Anyhoo, X, thank you for bringing this up. I've heard that GA-3, although very effective in breaking dormancy of many kinds of seeds for germination, does not work as well for species belonging to the genus Ipomoea.. I'd love to know if you've used GA-3 on any Ipomoea species and cultivars, and what kind of results you may have had. (I'd be interested in your experience with any plant actually)

Apologies to all if my curiosity is out of place

Karen

ps - about stretching ProMix with various home-made composts -

#1 - A local farmer makes huge piles of leaves in the fall (premowed to chop up), which rot into nice leaf mold by spring (I just pile bags of raked leaves in my compost area and put holes all over the bags - same result. Actually, I also keep a cold compost pile going which is just piling anything organic like weeds and letting nature rot it in its own time...But there's a quicker compost method involving a ratio of 4 or 5 to 1 of fresh green stuff (for nitrogen) layered with dry chopped leaves (for carbon) and a sprinkled layer of garden dirt that can work more quickly with controlled aeration...but I'm really off topic now...anyhoo the result can go anywhere without burning plants...great to dig in, because for me, compost restructures my clay-based soil with its fluffiness and thereby makes nutrients already in the soil available to plants which otherwise could not access them) There are many different kinds of compost, that function very differently from the store-bought, bagged kind (Try searching for compost and/or nitrogen to carbon ratio in www.google.com)

#2 tip for stretching ProMix - this farmer also keeps a bin of earthworms to which she feeds shredded paper and mixes that into her ProMix, along with compost - it would be a good idea to search for earthworm compost through www.google.com for more information

Hope these cheap ways of home-made humus are useful to someone who wants to stretch their ProMix.

This message was edited Jul 20, 2010 10:14 AM

If you've ever grown loofah you know they are slow to start. By soaking loofah seeds that have been cut on the sides on a paper towel saturated with GA3 at 200ppm had those babies sprouting in 3 days!!!!!

I've found that nicking MG seeds (i use cuticle scissors .. they are very sharp and bowed) and starting them on a saturated paper towel with the 200ppm gets the stubborn ones going too. I rarely have problem getting mg seeds to sprout. I think the key is to break the coat.

Be careful though .. the second you see them start to sprout, rinse them off well and plant them otherwise you can get really bad elongation.

X

This message was edited Jul 20, 2010 9:18 AM