Eastern Redbud needs a little help from some friends

I have an Eastern Redbud tree in a container that I just purchased this Spring before leaf break from a nursery in SW MI, but the tree probably did not originate from there. It is showing signs of chlorosis (lighter color, thin leaves with the veins darker).
I left it in a pot because the temperature is borderline in my area for Winter survival. I did repot it in Professional Grower's Mix. The tree is about 7' tall including the pot, so it is a good size tree. I added a light sprinkling of fertilizer about a month after potting it up. Also, when I took it out of the pot, I noticed that the ball of roots was growing in red, thick clay. I tried to aerate the roots by opening up some of the clay. But wet clay is really hard to aerate. I hoped that I could balance out the problem by using the Professional Grower's Mix.
About a week ago, I put a moderate amount of Epsom Salt in the soil, so that the roots might be able to take up the nutrients. Things haven't changed much, and the leaves are still light green, but not yellow. The veins are still showing through darker green. It's a lot of work for a $38 bargain tree, but in general it is really beautiful on my deck.
If it makes it through this year, we are overwintering the dormant tree in our garage. Thanks for any help.

If you are watering this container plant regularly, use a balanced liquid fertilizer (like one might use on annuals in hanging baskets) every other time. A formula that has slightly higher nitrogen wouldn't hurt in "greening it up".

You have an incredibly artificial and contrived situation with heavy clay native soil surrounded by potting mix. Your tree will never be satisfied with that, and you'll have one imbalance or another. I'd suggest putting your redbud in the ground, and giving it a shot at a real life (from a tree's perspective).

Zone 5a just isn't that cold. If this plant's provenance is zone 7, then it won't matter anyway. Look for a plant with genetics closer to home next year, if this one doesn't survive for you.

Eastern redbuds in general are hardy to zone 4 (and are native to Wisconsin among other places) so I agree on putting it in the ground--it'll be happier in the long run. And as VV said, if your particular plant was from a warmer area and doesn't do well, replace it with one that was grown in your area and it should do beautifully for you.

Thanks for the input. I have put two Redbuds in the ground and lost one. The other is struggling. We planted it, watered it when there was drought last year, and just yesterday I noticed that we have several shoots coming up at ground level. I thought it was dead! We live on a hill, and it is horribly windy here at times, which means that in the Winter the wind bites from the West. I believe a better choice would have been to site the tree in a less windy spot.
As for the potted tree, I noticed today that the leaves are greening out. The veins are less prominent compared to the rest of the leaf. I opened up the clay soil again and infused liquid iron with minerals a few days ago. It is partially a matter of pH. The new soil isn't potting mix. It is a Professional Grower's Mix combined with our native soil to aerate it a bit.
If I end up losing the tree anyway, I'll try to get one that was grown in the area as you both suggested, but it seems that most are shipped from out of state.
Thanks!

If it's in a pot, you should be using potting mix not garden soil. Garden soil is too heavy for containers and can cause problems because it doesn't drain well. So if you want to keep it in a pot I would repot it using a soil-less mix. You can make your own (there are some recipes in the sticky threads in the container gardening forum) or buy it if you don't have time to make your own, but I would not leave it planted in what you've got it in now.

But that doesn't make sense to me! If I put it in the ground, then it would be in the same "heavy soil" unless you mean the weight of the container. What I was looking for was information about the chemistry of the soil, and I found my answer from University sites. When I purchased the tree I asked the nursery where I purchased the plant if FAFARD 3B Professional Grower's Mix combined with the native soil in about a 50:50 give or take ratio. It drains very well! Our pH is 7.5 -8 and that means the water is that as well since it is well water. So I have learned a bit from arborist sites. I am aware of the container gardening forum and the complexity or garden soil on drainage.

Also after I purchased this tree, I was physically not able to plant it in the ground due to a sciatica and rheumatoid arthritis flare up. I contemplated at a different site but the present situation changed the plans. I've observed other places with these and other ornamental trees in containers. I'll have more help in the Fall, and we'll see what the plan is then. I'm just compromised now, and by Fall I'm hoping I'll be better, and I'll have someone to move it for Winter protection.


This message was edited Jun 26, 2010 8:55 PM

Drainage works differently in a container than it does in the ground, that's why garden soil shouldn't be used. If you want a good explanation, go read some of the sticky threads in the container gardening forum--Al (tapla) explains things way better than I could.

If the nursery told you your grower's mix combined with native soil was good, were they assuming you were planting it in the ground? Mixing in amendments like that with your native soil when you plant in the ground would be something that I could see a nursery suggesting, but I hope they would know better than to recommend using garden soil in a container.

It'll never survive long term in a pot.

Chose a protected site, like on the side of your house that usually doesn't get too much wind, and plant it. Mulch it. Stake it if needed. And then wait and see what happens. But it won't live very long in a pot.

Thanks for the help. It's been 95 degrees and I'm not even going to ask someone to plant if for me now. The tree is really getting better given the addition of magnesium (Epsom Salts) and liquid iron with nutrients. "pottingAwesome actually. What made the problem worse is all the rain that we had in Wisconsin that leached the nutrients right out of the soil. For the record. The soil isn't just "potting soil" that you buy at Walmart or any garden center. It is Fafard 3B and fairly expensive. Actually the darn bag is almost as expensive as the tree $20, and the tree on sale was $38. If you look it up on the internet, you can see the constituents, and is soil less. So before my back was injured, I potted up the tree and added elemental sulfur and nutrients to the soil. I just didn't account for the gunky clay someone planted it in to begin with. The tree is growing roots right in the Fafard mix, which is awesome. The leaves are greening out, and I probably jumped the gun on posting this. And I'm not able to lift it out of the pot now, so its there to stay for now. Maybe when the weather cools down, I can hire someone to plant it in an area that is out of the wind FrillyLily. I hate to put more stress on it, and after all it's only a $38 tree. But that's not saying much. My Mother just move in with us and I would let her throw away a plant that looked like it was on its last root, just because.
Thanks again.
Mary

Oh, I didn't mean right away, I agree, much too hot right now, and would just stress it probably. This fall, you could plant it.

You shouldn't have any trouble growing a redbud in your zone, we go down below zero with no problems. They grow naturally in the more protected areas near larger trees, so it may be the windy areas with no protection that is keeping them from doing well, and they also don't like wet feet.

I'm sure when you say lift it out of the pot that you really mean tip it over and slide it out. Lifting it out by the trunk breaks off roots.

My understanding is that the regular strain of E. Redbud does not do well in WI but there is a strain that grows as far north as Columbus WI (Redbud City) and another MN strain.

Cathy4, I did tip it over and had help sliding it out. That is how I could hand pick out the shocking red clay that originally captured the roots. I pulled away quite a bit of it, and replaced it with the above-mentioned material, with the following clarification: virgin soil from a mature oak and hickory stand in my woods combined in a 50:50 approximate ratio of Fafard 3B, whose constituents can be found at this link. http://www.fafard.com/?p=139 or by googling Fafard 3b
The tree is greening out yet, and I am really surprised by the success of adding the Epsom salt, iron + minerals, (and tree fertilizer earlier in the Spring).

Thanks gasrocks. I was not aware of the strain performance in our area.

I would get the tree in the ground immediately to give it time to acclimate to your native soil. If you don't, when you do plant it next year, if you plan to do so, you are setting the tree up for a second shock - different soil after it has kind of gotten used to the clay it's in. The issue with redbuds is they really need to be grown from seed in the soil it is to live its life in. It does not take to change of soil kindly. So - give it the shock now before it's worse next year. Please do not plan to keep it in a pot - if it survives through the winter, it will quickly outgrow it's pot and die anyway! What's the point?

sherriseden

If I were ABLE to plant this tree in the ground, I would do so. The unplanned back injury changes things a bit. The cost of back surgery is more than the cost of the tree. So it will need to wait until I can get some help. I do have a sheltered site in the woods picked out. I appreciate Frilly Lillys help, by the way. The tree is not just in clay. I REMOVED a great deal of it with help, and the roots are growing in Fafard 3B.
I'll be happy to follow up and research the "grown from seed" comment.

I can see that this question generated a great deal of comments both negative and positive, and some a bit more aggressive than I had thought would appear on a forum such as Dave's Garden. We don't need negative comments like "What's the point?" on forums that should be interesting, helpful, and fun. If the goal is to crucify people, then find a site that works better for that type of aggression.

I've read a lot of good comments on other sites regarding redbuds and other trees, so I won't be accessing Dave's Garden much. It has gotten quite negative on several threads that I've read, none of which I want to read or contribute!

Myresort,

I'm really sorry I offended you. I simply meant "what's the point of keeping it in the pot if it will die", that's all. My apologies if it came across as aggressive!

Peace, Sherri

It is unfortunate that well-meaning advice is taken as aggressive affronts by some. It is an element of Internet communication.

The OP has a common lament for northern gardeners trying to grow more common southern species. The Eastern Redbud is mass produced in more southerly nurseries, shipped northward for willing customers, and then dies at the unsuspecting hands of those like myresortonahill.

Eastern Redbud grows perfectly fine in heavy red clay soils. It is native to just this condition here and elsewhere in the upper South and Ohio River valley region. There just isn't a simile in conditions in glaciated Wisconsin.

Removing some of the clay and replacing with a disparate growing media is a short term band-aid, but admiration is due for trying to make it work. The soil in which this tree might ultimately grow is yet a third composition and texture. That plant won't know which end is up by then.

But - as gardeners, we soldier on. Plants tolerate us regardless, and manage to survive all the concoctions we throw at them (a lot of the time, at least). What this plant won't survive is its own genetics, which I suspect are Tennessee in origin. That's likely zone 7 - a far cry from zone 5a.

Getting plants from a provenance similar to your growing conditions should always be a primary target, especially when the plant is one that originates over a very wide range of climatic conditions. Cercis canadensis is native to a wide swath of the eastern US; I think I've read of outlying populations as far north as Michigan. Seedlings from that provenance should be sought, or from known plants growing in Wisconsin, Minnesota, or northern Illinois collections.

One might have to start with smaller plants, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.

Here's a funny story about redbuds (at least now it's funny - then, it wasn't!) . . .

In April of this year, I saw the redbuds in the forest preserves by us blooming and - OH!! - wanted one so badly! I saw one at a big box . . . 7 feet tall with no leaves for a crazy low price of $14.99. I thought "OK, it's dormant. No problem". And the tag said it was shipped from Tennessee. Oooohhh, not good, thought I. Knowing better, but wanting those red buds and thinking I could make it work, I rushed it home put it in the ground. Watered, fertilized and waited. Watered, fertilized, and waited. After 6 weeks and no sign of life, I yanked it out of the ground and THEN noticed the roots had been pruned to about FOUR INCHES!! (I didn't notice that when I put it in, even though I usually splay the roots out before planting. Can't explain that!!) I marched into the big box with this 7 foot dead tree and demanded my money back! Seeing that this dead tree in the hands of a crazy lady covered with dirt could attract a lot of attention from shoppers, they gave it to me - quickly and kindly! : )

I ended up getting a sapling out of my friend's yard in Round Lake. She said, "I had no idea you wanted one - I have tons of seedlings!!". It's doing fine!

I guess the point is - plants tolerate us and try to live despite our silliness, but sometimes we kill 'em anyway! Oh, well - such is the gardening life!

[quote="ViburnumValley"]It is unfortunate that well-meaning advice is taken as aggressive affronts by some. It is an element of Internet communication.

The OP has a common lament for northern gardeners trying to grow more common southern species. The Eastern Redbud is mass produced in more southerly nurseries, shipped northward for willing customers, and then dies at the unsuspecting hands of those like myresortonahill.

This is not well meaning advice, it's just standing on a soap box to make a point. Are we taking about a North-South Civil war here, or about Eastern Redbuds? I have also lived in Kentucky, and I am not from Wisconsin. So you should stick to the point, which was advice from Friends not cause conflict over a $38 tree that I can not plant right now. I did appreciate much of the advice, stated so, but I do not appreciate advice with an aggressive tone.
As for returning any plants, I certainly would not go back to a big box store and demand my money back. I'd explain the issue, show the employee my warranty that should have come with the plant and my receipt, and ask about the return. There is no need to come up with that kind of behavior.
Dave's Garden forums have certainly changed and taken on a very aggressive tone. It used to be that I'd read supportive comments when a person had an injury or a loss. Not so anymore!

I have stated that I would see about planting the tree in the ground, but unless anyone would like to drive up here to help, it will have to stay in the pot.

Ahem.

Let's all remember that written words rarely convey the actual tone the poster intended.

For that reason, it's always best to assume the person meant for their post to be taken in a positive or at least constructive way, and not read more into them than what is there.

Translate: everybody needs to take a deep breath, read back over your own posts and consider editing anything that you now realize was misunderstood or misinterpreted. And then let's all move on.

As the old smokey-the-bear campaign said: Only you can prevent forest fires. Ditto for virtual flame wars. Don't be careless with your words, it's just as reckless as dropping a burning object in a forest.

Actually, it's smokey bear - there is no "the". peace.

Peony, you rascal, you!! : )

(I'm sure Terry is laughing, too . . .)

: ) : )

I have a good sense of humor, but when we issue a warning, we would really hope that people take it seriously and not pick it apart.

Terry, You have proven the point. I have the highest regard for your efforts, and I would never do anything to undermine your authority. It's very easy to unintentionally cause someone to feel attacked. I have been on this site a long time, and we need to take the response of others with a grain of salt. I apologize if I have offended you. I am a gardener. There is nothing other than gardening information worth anything on this site. I have no desire to be an expert. Peace.

I live in Howell, Michigan. I also want a couple of redbuds. We have woods in the back of our property, and I always see them growing in the woods in Pennsylvania. Does anyone have any tips re planting and growing them in zone 5/6? I will be sure to look for ones grown in these zones, but would also like any other accumulated wisdom you have before I get something that can't make it here.

Many thanks in advance, Cubbydoodle

cubbydoodle:

You might want to start your own posting with a new title like "Help with success in growing Redbud in Michigan". That will help others following in your e-footsteps with finding this same information.

It will also let this old thread rest in peace.

As it needs to.